Author Topic: Oh yeah, we'll out-breed you!  (Read 2841 times)

SalukiFan

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Oh yeah, we'll out-breed you!
« on: September 22, 2005, 04:12:07 AM »
Something Matis mentioned in the thread on Simon Wiesenthal reminded me of a concept that some call militant fecundity.  As far as I can tell, the term was coined by David Hart, an Eastern Orthodox theologian and it refers to the idea that a group can dominate by simply having more children than those outside their group.  As Hart explains it:

    Probably the most subversive and effective strategy we might undertake would be one of militant fecundity: abundant, relentless, exuberant, and defiant childbearing. Given the reluctance of modern men and women to be fruitful and multiply, it would not be difficult, surely, for the devout to accomplishin no more than a generation or twoa demographic revolution. Such a course is quite radical, admittedly, and contrary to the spirit of the age, but that is rather the point, after all. It would mean often forgoing certain material advantages, and forfeiting a great deal of our leisure; it would often prove difficult to sustain a two-career family or to be certain of a lavish retirement. But if it is a war we want, we should not recoil from sacrifice. First Things Journal

Id be interested in hearing all of your thoughts on this.  Can you win a culture war or form your own voting block by simply raising more children with your beliefs/outlook?

TarpleyG

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« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2005, 04:18:55 AM »
Not that I believe anyone is intentionally doing this, but blacks and hispanics continue to have children at the rate whites were having them 50 years ago and that is why the black and hispanic population is growing so much faster.

Greg

The Rabbi

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« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2005, 04:43:10 AM »
Fertility tends to drop as industrialization increases.  Thus Brazil's birthrate has dropped dramatically over the last 20 years as its economy has modernized.
In rural societies kids are assets.  They are not only sources of cheap farm labor but also your 401K plan when you get old or sick.  In industrialized societies kids are more like house pets, unproductive and expensive to maintain.  Not surprisingly birthrates decline in that scenario.
I believe some European countries have experimented with giving birth subsidies.  It hasnt worked.  I know Israel does this and except for the chareidim (whoever they are) Israel's birthrate is among the lowest in the world.
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SalukiFan

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« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2005, 05:25:09 AM »
What I find fascinating about the idea of militant fecundity is that there is an intention behind it of using procreation to gradually take over per se.  One group that I personally find disturbing, the Christian Reconstructionists, also known as Dominionists, are big on having 8, 10, 15 or more children if possible and I would really hate to see them grasp the reigns of power based on some kind of demographic coup.  

Personally, I would be much more comfortable with the idea of being a minority in a predominantly Hispanic U.S. than a minority in a Dominionist U.S.  How bout you guys?  

Will you be voting Latinos Unidos or Holy Hammer of Jesus party in 2032?  Wink

roo_ster

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« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2005, 06:38:42 AM »
How about the other side of the coin?  Just not kill as many of your own children.  The Wall Street Journal calls this the "Roe Effect."

The idea is that pro-abortion women who act on their "pro-ness" will have fewer children...to the tune of ~1.5 (25%-33% the number of live births) million per year, every year since 1973.  Given that most children get their politics from their parents, that means there are ~40 million fewer people who would likely lean pro-abortion.  Since you have to be 18 to vote, that is about 18 million folks of voting age who are not around to vote for John Kerry or Hillary Clinton.  GWB beat the Kerry creature by 3 million votes in the popular vote, BTW.  If that 18 million split 60%/40% in favor of pro-abortion, pro-liberal policy; they'd be playing "Hail to the Chief" to for haughty, French-looking person who, BTW, served in Viet Nam.  :shudder:

FWIW, http://womensissues.about.com/cs/abortionstats/a/aaabortionstats.htm
Quote
Race - 63% of abortion patients are white, however, black women are more than 3 times as likely to have an abortion, and Hispanic women are 2.5 times as likely.
...
According to a Gallup Poll in January, 2001 - People who considered themselves to be pro-life rose from 33% to 43% in the past 5 years, and people who considered themselves to be pro-choice declined from 56% to 48%.
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roo_ster

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client32

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« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2005, 06:48:45 AM »
Quote
served in Viet Nam
I was unaware of that, and I thought I watched the election fairly close. Tongue
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« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2005, 07:27:48 AM »
The answer is 'yes', because political and economic power inevitably emanates from the underlying culture.  California is a prime example of where high illegal alien birthrates play a major factor in co-opting the culture, and by extension, the money, power and influence.

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« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2005, 10:18:18 AM »
Some of the highest birth rates in the world are in the middle east and North Africa.

brimic

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« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2005, 11:54:48 AM »
Its not only a theory, but a practice.

Middle class families generally now need 2 people working to support a small family. Inner city generational welfare collectors breed like rabbits (no offense to the rabbits intended), whose behavior is funded by those 2 working parent families who pay exorbitant taxes.  In order to keep collecting the government underwritten lifestyles, the slugs have to keep voting themselves money.

It would be a neat experiment if all of the productive working people had 5 or 6 kids instead of 0-2 kids, to see what our political  landscape would be like in 20-30 years.
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Standing Wolf

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« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2005, 12:22:36 PM »
None for me, thanks all the same.
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Justin

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« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2005, 01:11:54 PM »
SalukiFan, after reading those links, I have to ask one question:

Where's Snake Plissken when you really need him?
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MaterDei

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« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2005, 01:45:44 PM »
"None for me, thanks all the same."  Thank goodness!  Smiley

I have 6 kids and they are all growing up to be very traditional.  They are PRO LIFE, pro gun, pro limitied government, pro free market, anti democratic (party, that is), anti republican (party, that is),  and pro Catholic in all ways.  Yes, I am a very proud papa.

All of my liberal friends have at most 1 child.  Yes, we will WIN!

Perd Hapley

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« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2005, 01:47:34 PM »
Looking at the "Dominionist" website, I find it interesting that the only name I recognize is this one:

Quote
Larry Pratt: head of the Gun Owners of America and English First, a group opposed to non-English speaking immigrants and bilingual education. Author of "Armed People Victorious" which documents Guatemalan and Philippine militias and para-military death squads. He was campaign co-chair of the Buchanan presidential campaign in 1996.
Of course, when they can't even correctly define "antinomianism," I question whether they can get anything right.
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crt360

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« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2005, 02:13:45 PM »
Quote
Probably the most subversive and effective strategy we might undertake would be one of militant fecundity: abundant, relentless, exuberant, and defiant childbearing. Given the reluctance of modern men and women to be fruitful and multiply, it would not be difficult, surely, for the devout to accomplishin no more than a generation or twoa demographic revolution. Such a course is quite radical, admittedly, and contrary to the spirit of the age, but that is rather the point, after all. It would mean often forgoing certain material advantages, and forfeiting a great deal of our leisure; it would often prove difficult to sustain a two-career family or to be certain of a lavish retirement. But if it is a war we want, we should not recoil from sacrifice.
I wonder if this may have been said with some sarcasm?

Quote
Can you win a culture war or form your own voting block by simply raising more children with your beliefs/outlook?
I guess it is theoretically possible to "win" by altering the status quo, but the "culture" might not turn out to be the one you wanted.  Also, as some of you may know, there is no guarantee that your children will maintain your beliefs/outlook.  I know way too many people who have different political beliefs than their parents/children/siblings to believe this would be effective.

I have no problem with families having all the kids they can afford, but as a community/nation/world we do not have a shortage of people; in fact, we could probably stand to have a few less.
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SalukiFan

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« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2005, 02:49:16 PM »
Quote from: fistful
Looking at the "Dominionist" website, I find it interesting that the only name I recognize is this one:

Quote
Larry Pratt: head of the Gun Owners of America and English First, a group opposed to non-English speaking immigrants and bilingual education. Author of "Armed People Victorious" which documents Guatemalan and Philippine militias and para-military death squads. He was campaign co-chair of the Buchanan presidential campaign in 1996.
Of course, when they can't even correctly define "antinomianism," I question whether they can get anything right.
I agree that the religioustolerance.org website seems a little shaky on some of the facts (that's why I listed the website I prefer first) but you have to admit that they have a flair for the alarming!

Seriously though, I can confirm from both personal interaction with dominionist and reading their articles and websites that much but not all of what the website details seems to be the case.  For example, while some dominionists will defend slavery in the past because they see it as Biblical, I don't know of any "debate" within dominionism about whether or not to reinstitute slavery in a Brave New Theocracy.  

On the other hand, some dominionists have not been shy about calling for the execution or exile of gays and lesbians or bringing back other punishments for such things as adultery, idolatry and children's disobedience.  My end conclusion - I'm taking them seriously.

Quote from: crt360
Quote
"Probably the most subversive and effective strategy we might undertake would be one of militant fecundity: abundant, relentless, exuberant, and defiant childbearing. Given the reluctance of modern men and women to be fruitful and multiply, it would not be difficult, surely, for the devout to accomplishin no more than a generation or twoa demographic revolution. Such a course is quite radical, admittedly, and contrary to the spirit of the age, but that is rather the point, after all. It would mean often forgoing certain material advantages, and forfeiting a great deal of our leisure; it would often prove difficult to sustain a two-career family or to be certain of a lavish retirement. But if it is a war we want, we should not recoil from sacrifice.
I wonder if this may have been said with some sarcasm?
It doesn't seem sarcastic to me when read in context but I've provided the link in the original post above if you'd like to read the whole article and draw your own conclusions.

Quote from: crt360
Quote
Can you win a culture war or form your own voting block by simply raising more children with your beliefs/outlook?
I guess it is theoretically possible to "win" by altering the status quo, but the "culture" might not turn out to be the one you wanted.  Also, as some of you may know, there is no guarantee that your children will maintain your beliefs/outlook.
I think you're absolutely correct about that.  Children often rebel against their parents' values in incredibly creative and frustrating ways.  In fact, the dominionist types I've been talking about are really, really frightened that their children might get lured away from them.  Here's a favorite example:

"The homosexual movement is by necessity a parasitic movement. Gay men don't reproduce and lesbians only do so with some clever science or helpful friends. Therefore, the gay world is a necessarily barren world and depends on the straight community for its children. Without the children of heterosexuals, the homosexuals could have no next generation. But, despite the homosexual sterility, the gay movement seems to have no shortage of new blood. So where do they all come from? The answer is fairly tragic. They come from the Church.

Christianity has become a spiritually castrated movement. As a Church we are not able to reproduce. We might produce children of the flesh, a host of Ishmaels, but no children of the promise, no Isaacs. Our children grow up in the Church only to lose interest in the faith and to walk away from the blood of Christ and the glories of the New Covenant. We have grown so used to losing our children to unbelief that we have begun to expect it. We expect apostasy so much that we grow skeptical of children who do not abandon the faith. And so the Church has become the incubator for the next generation of homosexuals."
Ben Merkle

I bet you didn't know this is where all of us gay types are coming from!  Wink

Dannyboy

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« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2005, 05:16:59 PM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
I know Israel does this and except for the chareidim (whoever they are) Israel's birthrate is among the lowest in the world.
Unfortunately for Israel, the Palestinian birthrate is much higher, almost 5:1, I believe.
Oh, Lord, please let me be as sanctimonious and self-righteous as those around me, so that I may fit in.

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« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2005, 06:17:22 PM »
Quote from: Dannyboy
Quote from: The Rabbi
I know Israel does this and except for the chareidim (whoever they are) Israel's birthrate is among the lowest in the world.
Unfortunately for Israel, the Palestinian birthrate is much higher, almost 5:1, I believe.
Yes, that is the demographic time bomb and why Israel returned the Gaza strip rather than annex it.
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Dannyboy

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« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2005, 06:30:47 PM »
Rabbi, I'm from Brigantine, right over the bridge from AC.  

I'm taking a class on the Arab-Israeli Conflict this semester.  We were just talking about this very subject today.  So far it's very interesting but it's not exactly what I was expecting.  It's taught by Rabbi Aaron Kraus (you might have heard of him) and I was expecting one of thopse Columbia type Jew-hating Palestinian sympathizers then I realized that Stockton has a Masters in Holocaust Studies program as well as a Holocaust museum.
Oh, Lord, please let me be as sanctimonious and self-righteous as those around me, so that I may fit in.