Author Topic: Eric "Anti" Holder: AG Designate for President-Elect Obama  (Read 6425 times)

Don't care

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Eric "Anti" Holder: AG Designate for President-Elect Obama
« on: November 19, 2008, 02:32:49 PM »
Thread header re-created.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2009, 03:17:17 PM by Gewehr98 »

Sergeant Bob

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Re: Eric "Anti" Holder: AG Designate for President-Elect Obama
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2008, 02:47:54 PM »
Probably just one of a long line of anti-freedom nominations he will make. Fasten your seat belts folks, it's gonna be a bumpy ride. :mad:
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
I meet lots of folks like this, claim to be anarchist but really they're just liberals with pierced genitals. - gunsmith

I already have canned butter, buying more. Canned blueberries, some pancake making dry goods and the end of the world is gonna be delicious.  -French G

Manedwolf

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Re: Eric "Anti" Holder: AG Designate for President-Elect Obama
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2008, 02:56:31 PM »
So far, it looks like most of the nominees are soggy, stale old Clintoids dug out of the trash bin.

Change.

El Tejon

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Re: Eric "Anti" Holder: AG Designate for President-Elect Obama
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2008, 03:06:43 PM »
Holder?  What is HopeyChangey thinking?

Are we going to give pardons to AQT now? =D
I do not smoke pot, wear Wookie suits, live in my mom's basement, collect unemployment checks or eat Cheetoes, therefore I am not a Ron Paul voter.

Waitone

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Re: Eric "Anti" Holder: AG Designate for President-Elect Obama
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2008, 03:53:38 PM »
At least is wasn't the most corrupt person in DC, Ms. Gorelick.  I guess some consider that kind of change.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 09:09:11 PM by Waitone »
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds. It will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
- Charles Mackay, Scottish journalist, circa 1841

"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it." - John Lennon

buzz_knox

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Re: Eric "Anti" Holder: AG Designate for President-Elect Obama
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2008, 06:12:28 PM »
And now Daschle heading up HHS.  The "change" is installing a completely socialist administration.  Lovely.

Don't care

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Re: Eric "Anti" Holder: AG Designate for President-Elect Obama
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2008, 06:46:55 PM »
"Change" my buttocks.

How does one "change" a system with the same stale, old people? How does one have "hope" with the same stale, old policies?

The only change that will be happening, is the ex-change of one tyrant for another.

Sergeant Bob

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Re: Eric "Anti" Holder: AG Designate for President-Elect Obama
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2008, 07:47:27 PM »
ty·rant  (trnt)
n.
1. An absolute ruler who governs without restrictions.
2. A ruler who exercises power in a harsh, cruel manner.
3. An oppressive, harsh, arbitrary person.
[Middle English, from Old French, alteration of tyran, from Latin tyrannus, from Greek turannos.]

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2003. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.


The only change that will be happening, is the ex-change of one tyrant for another.

Tyrant? Please. :rolleyes:
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
I meet lots of folks like this, claim to be anarchist but really they're just liberals with pierced genitals. - gunsmith

I already have canned butter, buying more. Canned blueberries, some pancake making dry goods and the end of the world is gonna be delicious.  -French G

Don't care

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Re: Eric "Anti" Holder: AG Designate for President-Elect Obama
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2008, 12:41:47 AM »
ty·rant  (trnt)
n.
1. An absolute ruler who governs without restrictions.
2. A ruler who exercises power in a harsh, cruel manner.
3. An oppressive, harsh, arbitrary person.
[Middle English, from Old French, alteration of tyran, from Latin tyrannus, from Greek turannos.]

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2003. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.


Tyrant? Please. :rolleyes:

President Lincoln suspended habeus corpus, had editors of Northern newspapers arrested, and allowed the Union army to engage in such tactics that would be considered criminal, had they occurred in the North.

As such, Lincoln was called a tyrant and a monster by Congressman from Ohio. At that, Lincoln banished said congressman to Canada for the remainder of the Civil War.

Under the time President Bush has occupied the white house: we have the expansion of FISA, otherwise known as the Patriot Act, along with such laws as the Military Commissions Act, Privacy in Financial Institutions Act, The Bipartisan Campaign Finance Reform Act, et al.

We've lost a lot of privacy with the usurpation of the court's involvement to issue a warrant, habeus corpus thrown out the window in the name of terrorism, and the loss of such organizations as the NRA and Planned Parenthood to criticize federal candidates for office.

If these aren't the products of a tyrannical government, what is?

Now we have President Elect Obama.

Do you really think the agenda of this president is going to allow us to keep firearms? After all, he thought that the virtual ban on self defense with a firearm was constitutional.

How bad does it need to get before we use the proper terms for our government?

De Selby

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Re: Eric "Anti" Holder: AG Designate for President-Elect Obama
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2008, 02:11:33 AM »
I'm thinking the gun owners might get through this administration by getting pro-active with the bills and proposing meaningless restrictions that include huge expansions in rights.

For example, instead of waiting for prohibitionists to introduce a bill to "close the gun show loophole", we should introduce our own "gun show loophole" bill:  call it that, "The Responsible Gun Transfers Act of 2009" or something similar, and then require gun shows to make a desk available for a simple instant check transfer between private parties....have a short form with no information on the gun, just name and address of purchaser, and do the check by phone or computer, with a capped fee.

If you do that, and then ADD to the bill requirements that benefit gun owners, like:

-Pre-empt state check/restrictions on transfers
-Protect gun shows from zoning/lawsuit harrassment (after all, we want to make sure people go to a place where they can do background checks for a sale..
-Streamline the background check system

The plans are myriad that could involve this strategy.  Ideally, we'd be able to get the entire country on board with a simple license/id endorsement that allows for an instant background check every time a gun is purchased, and no more.

If you could do that while packaging the plan as "closing loopholes" and "ensuring that felons do not get guns by providing a more accurate, efficient, and most of all nationally uniform background check system", you could greatly expand firearms rights without sacrificing much beyond rhetoric.


"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Don't care

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Re: Eric "Anti" Holder: AG Designate for President-Elect Obama
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2008, 09:05:39 AM »
I'm thinking the gun owners might get through this administration by getting pro-active with the bills and proposing meaningless restrictions that include huge expansions in rights.

For example, instead of waiting for prohibitionists to introduce a bill to "close the gun show loophole", we should introduce our own "gun show loophole" bill:  call it that, "The Responsible Gun Transfers Act of 2009" or something similar, and then require gun shows to make a desk available for a simple instant check transfer between private parties....have a short form with no information on the gun, just name and address of purchaser, and do the check by phone or computer, with a capped fee.

If you do that, and then ADD to the bill requirements that benefit gun owners, like:

-Pre-empt state check/restrictions on transfers
-Protect gun shows from zoning/lawsuit harrassment (after all, we want to make sure people go to a place where they can do background checks for a sale..
-Streamline the background check system

The plans are myriad that could involve this strategy.  Ideally, we'd be able to get the entire country on board with a simple license/id endorsement that allows for an instant background check every time a gun is purchased, and no more.

If you could do that while packaging the plan as "closing loopholes" and "ensuring that felons do not get guns by providing a more accurate, efficient, and most of all nationally uniform background check system", you could greatly expand firearms rights without sacrificing much beyond rhetoric.

Allow me to preface my following statement by stating that I more than agree with you. An excellent idea.

However.....................

The ones proposing the "ban", "close", "anti", "etc.", bills; aren't interested in a pragmatic, or even a fair working solution to a perceived problem they have hyped in the press. They know for example, that there is in fact, no gun show loophole and thus, are working to take baby steps to abolish gun shows altogether.

The last two pieces of federal legislation which actually accomplished something for 2A, were:

Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act of 2005
(defeated the first time when introduced due to the presence of an extension to the AWB AW (Cosmetics) Ban),

and

Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986 (though it banned newly produced, full autos to the masses  :mad:)

Dannyboy

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Re: Eric "Anti" Holder: AG Designate for President-Elect Obama
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2008, 10:35:43 AM »
I'm thinking the gun owners might get through this administration by getting pro-active with the bills and proposing meaningless restrictions that include huge expansions in rights.

For example, instead of waiting for prohibitionists to introduce a bill to "close the gun show loophole", we should introduce our own "gun show loophole" bill:  call it that, "The Responsible Gun Transfers Act of 2009" or something similar, and then require gun shows to make a desk available for a simple instant check transfer between private parties....have a short form with no information on the gun, just name and address of purchaser, and do the check by phone or computer, with a capped fee.

If you do that, and then ADD to the bill requirements that benefit gun owners, like:

-Pre-empt state check/restrictions on transfers
-Protect gun shows from zoning/lawsuit harrassment (after all, we want to make sure people go to a place where they can do background checks for a sale..
-Streamline the background check system

The plans are myriad that could involve this strategy.  Ideally, we'd be able to get the entire country on board with a simple license/id endorsement that allows for an instant background check every time a gun is purchased, and no more.

If you could do that while packaging the plan as "closing loopholes" and "ensuring that felons do not get guns by providing a more accurate, efficient, and most of all nationally uniform background check system", you could greatly expand firearms rights without sacrificing much beyond rhetoric.

The biggest problem with this is that the Republicans in the House just re-elected John Boehner as Minority Leader...again.  That tells me that more than half of them are complete idiots who couldn't possibly come up with a decent piece of legislation if someone else wrote it and put it in front of them with their name on it.
Oh, Lord, please let me be as sanctimonious and self-righteous as those around me, so that I may fit in.

Manedwolf

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Re: Eric "Anti" Holder: AG Designate for President-Elect Obama
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2008, 10:45:46 AM »
The biggest problem with this is that the Republicans in the House just re-elected John Boehner as Minority Leader...again.  That tells me that more than half of them are complete idiots who couldn't possibly come up with a decent piece of legislation if someone else wrote it and put it in front of them with their name on it.

Yes. The Stupid Party once again lives up to its name by leaving in power a guy who couldn't find his way out of a room with no walls.

De Selby

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Re: Eric "Anti" Holder: AG Designate for President-Elect Obama
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2008, 09:08:24 PM »

The ones proposing the "ban", "close", "anti", "etc.", bills; aren't interested in a pragmatic, or even a fair working solution to a perceived problem they have hyped in the press. They know for example, that there is in fact, no gun show loophole and thus, are working to take baby steps to abolish gun shows altogether.



I agree, but I was thinking in terms of repackaging legislation that doesn't really restrict firearms under the guise of "new gun controls."   That way, when the anti-gun legislators oppose it, you can hammer them for holding up "common sense measures to keep guns out of the hands of criminals" and "valuable law enforcement tools to help combat gun crime" just because they didn't write it and/or it wasn't introduced by their party.

Ideally, even a few failed bills could repackage gun control advocates as mere partisan hacks who don't really care about gun control (even though in reality they're the opposite-they're gun control nuts who pretend to be partisan hacks).  Score some points, and maybe get the next "common sense gun control program" passed to make things easier for gun owners, and to make the small slice of the public that wants control sleep better at night.


"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

ShelleyB.

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Re: Eric "Anti" Holder: AG Designate for President-Elect Obama
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2008, 10:51:51 PM »
I'm thinking the gun owners might get through this administration by getting pro-active with the bills and proposing meaningless restrictions that include huge expansions in rights.

For example, instead of waiting for prohibitionists to introduce a bill to "close the gun show loophole", we should introduce our own "gun show loophole" bill:  call it that, "The Responsible Gun Transfers Act of 2009" or something similar, and then require gun shows to make a desk available for a simple instant check transfer between private parties....have a short form with no information on the gun, just name and address of purchaser, and do the check by phone or computer, with a capped fee.

If you do that, and then ADD to the bill requirements that benefit gun owners, like:

-Pre-empt state check/restrictions on transfers
-Protect gun shows from zoning/lawsuit harrassment (after all, we want to make sure people go to a place where they can do background checks for a sale..
-Streamline the background check system

The plans are myriad that could involve this strategy.  Ideally, we'd be able to get the entire country on board with a simple license/id endorsement that allows for an instant background check every time a gun is purchased, and no more.

If you could do that while packaging the plan as "closing loopholes" and "ensuring that felons do not get guns by providing a more accurate, efficient, and most of all nationally uniform background check system", you could greatly expand firearms rights without sacrificing much beyond rhetoric.




Excellent ideas. Who are you targeting to write, sponsor, and support?

Monkeyleg

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Re: Eric "Anti" Holder: AG Designate for President-Elect Obama
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2008, 11:59:07 PM »
Shootinstudent, I've been involved in gun politics since the 1980's. I've seen attempts to "compromise" with the anti's go through, only to have them come back and get what they left behind in the negotiations.

We started with the full deck of cards, and they had none. Yet we "compromised," and now they have a big chunk of the deck and we're trying to figure out how to keep them from getting the whole deck.

It's like trying to negotiate with Ahmadinejad of Iran about Israel. When your opponent's aim is to obliterate you, how do you compromise?

Gun owners are reactive, not proactive. They don't get riled up until something's already happened. That's less true today than it was 10-15 years ago, but it's still true. NRA membership peaked under Clinton, and has been declining under Bush. It will increase again during the Obama administration.

The anti's would love your idea, but they wouldn't stop there. You can't give an inch.

De Selby

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Re: Eric "Anti" Holder: AG Designate for President-Elect Obama
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2008, 12:13:44 AM »
Monkeyleg,

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about making deals with the antis or compromising.  I'm talking about stealing the wind from their sails by initiating legislation that forces them to either vote for something that benefits gun owners because it is titled "Gun Safety and Responsibility Enforcement Act of 09" or something similar, or to vote against it, thus opening themselves up to charges of partisanship and unwillingness to "tackle the real problems with preventing gun crime."

Gun regulation and restrictions exist-the ticket is to have pro-gun interests take over the management and control of those restrictions.  I think the "gun safety" and "responsible gun ownership" lines are ripe for a takeover that could, in rhetoric, satisfy enough of the voting population that wants gun control while actually granting advances to the gun owning community.

Shelley,

There's a new conservative party forming, and a new democratic party.  I think it will take a year or so to figure out who would be on board for this sort of thing, and how it would play out.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2008, 12:28:21 AM by shootinstudent »
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

MechAg94

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Re: Eric "Anti" Holder: AG Designate for President-Elect Obama
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2008, 11:50:13 AM »
I like the idea, but I am cautious about what Monkeyleg mentioned. 

1.  If gun control is not on the radar of the Democrats, I wouldn't want to make it an issue. 
2.  If you introduce legislation that represents what you are willing to accept, what happens when they modify and add to it and turn it into something you are NOT willing to accept? 

I think the time to have done that would have been when Republicans were in the majority and that legislation might have gone through with fewer riders and changes.  At this point, I would have little confidence the law would pass in its original form.  Not a bad idea though.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Don't care

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Re: Eric "Anti" Holder: AG Designate for President-Elect Obama
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2008, 05:11:02 PM »
If gun control is not on the radar of the Democrats, I wouldn't want to make it an issue.

It may not be on the radar as a whole, but it is certainly on the radar of a number of individual lawmakers.

Jamisjockey

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Re: Eric "Anti" Holder: AG Designate for President-Elect Obama
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2008, 06:01:56 PM »
Eric Holder has always been a strong supporter of gun control. From his Weekly Briefing on March 20, 2000 (available on Lexis.com):

"I want to add my voice to those who are calling on Congress to finally -- to finally -- pass these very common-sense gun measures.

First, to require child safety locks for all handguns that are sold. Second, to ban violent juveniles from ever having the ability to own

guns. Third, to pass the president's handgun licensing proposal, which requires safety certification for all handgun purchasers.

Fourth, to support research in smart-gun technology, which can limit a gun's use to its authorized owner. And finally, to close the gun

show loop hole by requiring a background check for all gun purchases at gun shows. Every day that goes by, about 12, 13 more children

in this country die from gun violence. We need these common-sense measures and we need them now."


[sarcasm]
But....but....the economy....he's too busy to attack guns!!!!
[/sarcasm]

Anyone that doubts that gun control is on the (D) radar and targeting list......WAKE THE HELL UP!
JD

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Frontier509

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Re: Eric "Anti" Holder: AG Designate for President-Elect Obama
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2008, 08:31:26 PM »


Eric Holder Was a Gun Control Nightmare

Friday, November 21, 2008 11:03 AM

By: Jim Meyers 
 
 

Barack Obama’s nomination of Eric Holder for attorney general will not sit well with advocates of Second Amendment rights — Holder has consistently championed stronger gun-control measures.

As deputy attorney general in the Bill Clinton administration from 1997 to 2001, Holder “was a strong supporter of restrictive gun control,” according to The Volokh Conspiracy, a Web site that focuses on the legal system and the courts.

He advocated federal licensing of handgun owners, a three-day waiting period on handgun sales, rationing handgun sales to no more than one per month, banning possession of handguns and so-called "assault weapons" by anyone under age 21, a gun show restriction bill that would have given the federal government the power to shut down all gun shows, and national gun registration.

“He also promoted the factoid that ‘Every day that goes by, about 12, 13 more children in this country die from gun violence’ — a statistic that is true only if one counts 18-year-old gangsters who shoot each other as ‘children,’” noted the Web site, founded by law professor Alexander Volokh.

After the 9/11 attacks, Holder wrote an opinion piece for The Washington Post arguing that a new law should give "the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms a record of every firearm sale." He also said prospective gun buyers should be checked against the secret "watch lists" compiled by various government entities.

Earlier this year, Holder — who would become the first African-American attorney general — co-signed an amicus brief in support of the District of Columbia’s ban on all handguns and on the use of any firearm for self-defense in the home.

Holder also played a key role in the snatching of 6-year-old Cuban Elian Gonzalez from his Miami relatives’ home in April 2000, according to the Web site. Gonzalez was to be sent to Cuba where his father lived.

Although a photo clearly showed a federal agent pointing a gun at the man who was holding the terrified child, Holder claimed that the federal agents sent to capture Gonzalez had acted "very sensitively."

David Kopel, author of the Volokh Conspiracy report, observed: “If Mr. Holder believes that breaking down a door with a battering ram, pointing guns at children (not just Elian), and yelling ‘Get down, get down, we'll shoot’ is an example of acting ‘very sensitively,’ his judgment about the responsible use of firearms is not as acute as would be desirable for a cabinet officer who would be in charge of thousands and thousands of armed federal agents, many of them paramilitary agents with machine guns.”

Holder has already come under fire due to his involvement in the Mark Rich pardon in the final hours of the Clinton presidency.

Billionaire Rich renounced his U.S. citizenship and moved to Switzerland to avoid prosecution for racketeering, wire fraud, tax fraud, tax evasion, and illegal trades with Iran in violation of the U.S. embargo following the 1979-80 hostage crisis.

Seventeen years later, Rich wanted a pardon, and he retained Jack Quinn, former counsel to the president, to lobby his old boss.

Holder had originally recommended Quinn to one of Rich's advisers, political analyst Dick Morris reported. And he gave substantive advice to Quinn along the way.

Once the pardon was granted, Holder sent his congratulations to Quinn.

 


cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Eric "Anti" Holder: AG Designate for President-Elect Obama
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2008, 08:37:55 PM »
so why was sending the kid home to his dad a bad thing?
what gave the aunts and uncles more rights than his dad?
http://havanajournal.com/culture/ent...eturn_to_cuba/

from wiki
On March 21, a Federal judge dismissed the relatives' petition for asylum which they had filed on behalf of Elián. Lázaro vowed to appeal.[9] On March 29, Miami-Dade County Mayor Alex Penelas was joined by 22 other civic leaders in a speech in downtown Miami. Penelas indicated that the municipality would not cooperate with Federal authorities on any repatriation of the boy, and would not lend police or other assistance in taking the boy.

On April 14, a video was released in which Elián tells Juan Miguel that he wants to stay in the United States. However, many considered that he had been coached, as a male voice was heard off-camera directing the young boy. In a September 2005 interview with 60 Minutes after being sent back to Cuba, Elián stated that during his stay in the U.S., his family members were "telling me bad things about [my father]," and "were also telling me to tell him that I did not want to go back to Cuba, and I always told them I wanted to."[10]

Attorney General Janet Reno ordered the return of Elián to his father and set a deadline of April 13, 2000, but the Miami relatives defied the order. Negotiations continued for several days as the house was surrounded by protesters as well as police. The relatives insisted on guarantees that they could live with the child for several months and retain custody, and that Elián would not be returned to Cuba. Negotiations carried on throughout the night, but Reno stated that the relatives rejected all workable solutions. A Florida family court judge revoked Lázaro's temporary custody, clearing the way for Elián to be returned to his father's custody. On April 20, Reno made the decision to remove Elián González from the house and instructed law enforcement officials to determine the best time to obtain the boy. After being informed of the decision, Marisleysis said to a Justice Department community relations officer, "You think we just have cameras in the house? If people try to come in, they could be hurt."[12]
Alan Diaz's Pulitzer Prize winning photograph from the affair.

In the pre-dawn hours of April 22, pursuant to an order issued by a federal magistrate, eight SWAT-equipped agents of the Border Patrol's BORTAC unit as part of an operation in which more than 130 INS personnel took part[13] approached the house; they knocked, and identified themselves. When no one responded from within, they entered the house. Pepper-spray and mace were employed against those outside the house who attempted to interfere. Nonetheless, a stool, rocks, and bottles were thrown at the agents.[14] In the confusion Alan Diaz, of the Associated Press, was able to enter the house and entered a room with Elián, his great uncle's wife Angela Lázaro, her niece, the niece's young son, and Donato Dalrymple (one of the fishermen who had rescued him from the ocean). They waited in the room listening to agents search the house. Once they found the locked door to the room, agents kicked it down and Alan Diaz took his famous picture (he won the 2001 Pulitzer Prize for Breaking News Photography) showing a BORTAC Agent with a MP5 submachine gun pointed toward Elián and Donato Dalrymple. The Agent had his trigger finger along the frame of the weapon. Dalrymple had taken Elián and had tried to hide himself and the boy in the closet but it was too stuffed with clothes.[15][16]
Attorney General Janet Reno, enforced a judge's order that Elián be returned to his father

INS also stated in the days after the raid that they had identified as many as two dozen persons who were "prepared to thwart any government operation," some of whom had concealed weapons permits while others had criminal records.[17][18] The INS noted reported statements made by members of the Lázaro family that they were prepared to deal with any intrusion on their property by force if authorities attempted to take Elián without their consent.

"Assassins!" yelled some of the approximately 100 protesters[citation needed], some of whom climbed over the barricades in an attempt to stop the agents. Within an hour of the raid, the crowd in Little Havana quickly swelled to about 300. Several tried to rip apart and burn an American flag. Hundreds of outraged protesters poured out into the streets of Little Havana and demonstrated, burning garbage containers, tires, and trees. Crowds jammed a more than 10-block area of Little Havana. Police in riot gear were deployed and tear gas was used. Shortly afterwards, many Miami-Dade County businesses closed, as their owners and managers participated in a short boycott.[citation needed]

Public opinion about the INS raid on the Miami Gonzalezes' house was widely polarized. A Time magazine issue showed a joyful photo of Elián being reunited with his father (the caption says "Papa!"), while Newsweek ran an issue that focused on the raid, its title stating, "Seizing Elián."[19] There were two major foci in the coverage: the INS raid and the family reunions.[20]
After Elián was returned to his father's custody, he remained in the U.S. while the Miami relatives exhausted their legal options. A three-judge federal panel had ruled that he could not go back to Cuba until he was granted an asylum hearing, but the case turned on the right of the relatives to request that hearing on behalf of the boy. On June 1, 2000, the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that Elián was too young to file for asylum; only his father could speak for him, and the relatives lacked legal standing. On June 28, 2000, the U.S. Supreme Court refused to review the decision. Later the same day, Elián González and his family returned home to Cuba.
__________________
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

roo_ster

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Re: Eric "Anti" Holder: AG Designate for President-Elect Obama
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2008, 09:13:37 PM »
so why was sending the kid home to his dad a bad thing?

Lots of reasons why it was a "bad thing."

The worst had nothing to do with EG, but because was it was an horrendous abuse of the AG's power.



http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=YTkwYzBkNDZkYjJhNTEyOTc3ZmJkYjM4MTI1NGJmNjI=

Eric Holder's Bold Crackdown on Illegal Immigration   [Byron York]

Looking over some of Eric Holder's career greatest hits, I had forgotten how Holder and then-Attorney General Janet Reno claimed to have the authority to seize Elian Gonzalez.  In retrospect, it seems like a joke made for Mickey Kaus — they declared the boy an illegal alien and then went after him with all the power available to them.  And then, when they had Elian in custody, they declared him legal again.  In June 2000, I wrote about it in a story, "Illegal Elian," for The American Spectator (unfortunately not available on the web):

Quote
    When it was all over—when photos of rifle-toting armed federal agents seizing Elian had been shown on television and published in the papers—a diverse group of critics that included congressional Republicans and liberal Harvard professors Laurence Tribe and Alan Dershowitz began to question the legality of the INS's tactics. "No judge or neutral magistrate had issued the type of warrant or other authority needed for the executive branch to break into the home to seize the child," Tribe wrote in a much-quoted New York Times opinion piece. "The agency had no more right to do so than any parent who has been awarded custody would have a right to break and enter for such a purpose."

    But in the days that followed Tribe's pronouncement, Justice Department lawyers released a series of warrants and affidavits revealing their legal premise for raiding the home. First, the INS revoked Lazaro Gonzalez's custody of Elian. Then it issued an arrest warrant for the boy, temporarily declaring him an illegal alien and thus subject to pickup. Then, on the basis of its own arrest warrant, it asked for and received a search warrant from a federal magistrate to enter the Gonzalez house and seize the child. Then— voila! —after the seizure the INS declared Elian to be legal again and gave custody to his father, Juan Miguel Gonzalez.

    After their initial anger subsided, some critics conceded the INS likely had the legal authority to act as it did. "Did they have all their ducks in a row when they did this? I think they pretty much did," says [former INS general counsel] Grover Joseph Rees. But Rees and others point out that the Justice Department's actions, while not illegal, were an abuse of the attorney general's power and, at the very least, a parody of standard department practice. The arrest warrant/search warrant stratagem, in particular, seems more like a clever trick than a measured response to the situation. "Neither warrant served the purposes of this case," says a former Justice Department official. "They weren't really searching for him, and they weren't really arresting him."

11/20 07:21 AM
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Eric "Anti" Holder: AG Designate for President-Elect Obama
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2008, 09:21:07 PM »
conceded the INS likely had the legal authority to act as it did. "Did they have all their ducks in a row when they did this? I think they pretty much did," says [former INS general counsel] Grover Joseph Rees.


what rationale was/is there to seperate a boy from his dad?  for some aunt or uncle?  to keep the cuban exiles happy? 
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

MicroBalrog

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Re: Eric "Anti" Holder: AG Designate for President-Elect Obama
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2008, 09:26:50 PM »
conceded the INS likely had the legal authority to act as it did. "Did they have all their ducks in a row when they did this? I think they pretty much did," says [former INS general counsel] Grover Joseph Rees.


what rationale was/is there to seperate a boy from his dad?  for some aunt or uncle?  to keep the cuban exiles happy? 

I suppose the fact his mother gave her life so he wouldn't live in Cuba doesn't count?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner