Author Topic: Three Yale students arrested for burning U.S. flag  (Read 5029 times)

Perd Hapley

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Re: Three Yale students arrested for burning U.S. flag
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2007, 10:01:31 AM »
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Someone who burns a US flag is part of what that flag symbolizes.


Can you expand on that? 
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CAnnoneer

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Re: Three Yale students arrested for burning U.S. flag
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2007, 10:05:50 AM »
Sorry, MattC, but what you are describing is a compilation of people that cannot be a nation, just as anarchy is not a practicable system of government. If we base everything on negation, we play a game of infinite reflections, rather than anything meaningful, constructive, or long-lasting. Hardcore libertarian types (a.k.a. anarchists in disguise) would certainly agree with you, but then again they have yet to produce a functional viable civilized technologically advanced society beyond the lifestyle of Jeremiah Johnson.

tyme

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Re: Three Yale students arrested for burning U.S. flag
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2007, 11:29:39 AM »
Quote from: MattC
I agree with you that all cultures and nations develop symbols for identification.
And I agree with CAnnoneer on that point, too, despite him suggesting I don't.  It's the instinctual, savage reaction to flagburning that I have a major problem with, in case I was unclear.

We all have rituals, symbols, totems that are important to us.  I'd get quite upset over someone burning certain science books as a form of political protest, but I wouldn't even think of trying to get a law passed to make such science-burning illegal.

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MattC

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Re: Three Yale students arrested for burning U.S. flag
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2007, 12:19:59 PM »
Fistful, Im glad to expand on the part-of-the-symbol comment that I left too open.  At the foundation of the American Revolution and resulting Constitution is the idea that the government is necessary, but should never be held as above reproach or treated as divine (evidenced by the revulsion to the ideas of the divine appointment of the king and the separation of church and state).  As I understand it, those who burn flags as part of their discontent with government are burning what they believe to be the symbol of the governments authority.  The bigger problem, which I should have addressed, is that a metaphor is never a perfect vehicle for conveying complex subjects that it is meant to indicate.  Necessarily, metaphors are vague in order to provide succinctness.  They rely on a network of associated ideas, but this network varies for each person, and even at different times/contexts for the same person.  The very mad person burning a flag at a protest may be only thinking of the flag as a metaphor representing political domination.  Another may be seeing the flag as a metaphor for soldiers who never came home.  I cannot guess at what every persons interpretations are when looking at the US flag.  When someone chooses to burn it, however, if they are an American citizen then they are part of that metaphor as a nation, and they are a part of the rebellious history.

CAnnoneer, I do not think that anarchy is a viable economy.  People do not always think rationally, and a permanent rational mindset would be needed for an anarchic economy.  You did not accuse me of thinking anarchically, but I wanted to dismiss any suspicions that may have been forming.  It appears that my term negative expression was what led to your concerns of basing everything on negation.  I chose my words poorly.  By negative expression, I meant expressing opinions that are unsupportive of the government, where negative was used as having the opposite of a positive emotional response.

To have a government that is meaningful, constructive, and long lasting, the government and citizenry need to be dynamic.  People will never hold unanimous opinions across a nation, and so dissent, even fervent dissent in the form of burning a flag, must be allowed by a meaningful, constructive government that will represent and serve is citizenry in order to provide long lasting protection of civilized behavior.  To disallow it would create a neutered nation that could only effectively dissent through violent revolt, since physical action is the only recourse when communication is silenced.  I would rather see an upset college student burn a flag than throw a Molotov cocktail at the police.  I would much rather see that student talking rationally and distributing literature than burning a flag.

CAnnoneer, I am confused on one of your counter arguments, though.  You said that a compilation of people like that which I described could not form a nation.  Are you referring to a group of people who treat the flag as a metaphor and not as an idol?

Perd Hapley

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Re: Three Yale students arrested for burning U.S. flag
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2007, 12:46:45 PM »
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The very mad person burning a flag at a protest may be only thinking of the flag as a metaphor representing political domination.


I think that's what really bothers me about flag-burning as a form of protest (rather than to retire an old, worn flag).  I know some people burn the flag thinking they are protesting the govt., or some particular policy, but I can't see how it can really mean that.  The flag represents the nation, not just the govt.  Burning it doesn't mean that you hate the govt or what the govt. does.  The message that comes across, whether intentional or not, is hatred for the country.  Like burning a person in effigy.

On the other hand, I was always confused about why the Klan, who consider themselves a Christian organization, would burn the cross.  But apparently, it was meant as a way of "lighting" the cross, so that it would be visible, and was not meant as a form of disrespect for the cross. 

The lesson being, you can't always tell what people are trying to say.

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CAnnoneer

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Re: Three Yale students arrested for burning U.S. flag
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2007, 03:55:13 PM »
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CAnnoneer, I am confused on one of your counter arguments, though.  You said that a compilation of people like that which I described could not form a nation.  Are you referring to a group of people who treat the flag as a metaphor and not as an idol?

Essentially, fistful clarified the point for me in a subsequent post. I meant exactly that - the flag is not a symbol of the fed gov, it is a symbol of the nation, i.e. you, me, fistful, Joe Sixpack, etc. When somebody burns our flag, he does not protest against our gov, he essentially devalues us all, including you, me, fistful, Joe Sixpack, etc. If he is a foreigner, he is insulting our country. If he is an American, he essentially invalidates his membership card for our collective club called US of A. And that is why I think it is treasonous.

If a protester wants to express disagreement with the government, flags by dept and office are in existence:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_United_States

If he does not like Bush, he can burn a picture of Bush. If he thinks the institution of POTUS is unacceptable, he can print out and burn the standard of POTUS. Same with VPOTUS, individual departments, etc.

Finally, stupidity is no excuse. It is not our obligation to try to psychoanalyze a particular idiot's chosen means of communication. If he burns my flag, it is a reasonable interpretation that he disrespects my country.

De Selby

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Re: Three Yale students arrested for burning U.S. flag
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2007, 04:02:20 PM »
Imagine what the constitutional amendment to prohibit this behavior would look like:

"All action disrespectful to the United States as a whole shall result in an instant revocation of citizenship."

Yeah, that's not a scary power to give to the Government or anything.   rolleyes

Broad power to strip civil rights based on "insults to the fatherland" are more appropriate to Fascist governments, where mobilization to sacrifice in the name of a unifying race and ideology drive the society.

Toleration for dissidents, even those who advocate a complete change of government for whatever nutty reason, is something that functioning democracies do. 
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Manedwolf

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Re: Three Yale students arrested for burning U.S. flag
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2007, 04:29:45 PM »
Imagine what the constitutional amendment to prohibit this behavior would look like:

"All action disrespectful to the United States as a whole shall result in an instant revocation of citizenship."

Yeah, that's not a scary power to give to the Government or anything.   rolleyes

Broad power to strip civil rights based on "insults to the fatherland" are more appropriate to Fascist governments, where mobilization to sacrifice in the name of a unifying race and ideology drive the society.

Toleration for dissidents, even those who advocate a complete change of government for whatever nutty reason, is something that functioning democracies do. 


MattC

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Re: Three Yale students arrested for burning U.S. flag
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2007, 05:53:38 PM »
Manedwolf, that is hilarious!

CAnnoneer, in fairness it is not the protester's "obligation to try to psychoanalyze a particular [viewer]'s chosen means of [interpreting] communication."  I agree with you and Fistful that burning the flag is a ridiculous action that does not clearly express an argument, nor is it a persuasive declaration--like you said, even burning a specific flag that relates to their argument would be more intelligent.  I am not saying that the fascists will rule on Tuesday if the flag is declared inviolable on Monday.

What it comes down to for me, is that the flag is a piece of cloth and a piece of property.  It is a symbol with a massive amount of meaning residing in it, but it is a privately owned object.  If the owner decides to burn it, that is disrespectful and upsetting--exactly what the owner intends.  But it is private property.  When the person starts violating property rights or assaulting individuals, I expect laws that punish this behavior.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Three Yale students arrested for burning U.S. flag
« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2007, 07:53:26 PM »
Manedwolf, that is hilarious!

What it comes down to for me, is that the flag is a piece of cloth and a piece of property.  It is a symbol with a massive amount of meaning residing in it, but it is a privately owned object.  If the owner decides to burn it, that is disrespectful and upsetting--exactly what the owner intends.  But it is private property.  When the person starts violating property rights or assaulting individuals, I expect laws that punish this behavior.


Yup.
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