Author Topic: Honda FCX Clarity fuel cell car test drive  (Read 7231 times)

taurusowner

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Re: Honda FCX Clarity fuel cell car test drive
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2008, 04:06:59 AM »
How much does the home fuel station cost to fill your car?  If you burn X amount of gas to power your car and then switch over to burning X amount of something else to create electricity to power your car, what's changed?  Especially if you lose some energy in the extra medium transfers.  Does increased cost of electricity or natural gas to your home bill match or exceed gasoline costs?  Now what about if much of the country switches over to this and natural gas demand increases 2000+% ? 

Manedwolf

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Re: Honda FCX Clarity fuel cell car test drive
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2008, 04:12:39 AM »
How much does the home fuel station cost to fill your car?  If you burn X amount of gas to power your car and then switch over to burning X amount of something else to create electricity to power your car, what's changed?  Especially if you lose some energy in the extra medium transfers.  Does increased cost of electricity or natural gas to your home bill match or exceed gasoline costs?  Now what about if much of the country switches over to this and natural gas demand increases 2000+% ? 

Because we have centuries of natural gas in the US. We only import like 3% of what we use. It can also be made with high efficiency by everything from landfills to bioreactors digesting organic waste, like sewage. That's the difference. 

K Frame

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Re: Honda FCX Clarity fuel cell car test drive
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2008, 05:05:45 AM »
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NUCLEAR? DOUBLE SATAN!

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Firethorn

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Re: Honda FCX Clarity fuel cell car test drive
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2008, 05:35:02 AM »
How much does the home fuel station cost to fill your car?  If you burn X amount of gas to power your car and then switch over to burning X amount of something else to create electricity to power your car, what's changed?  Especially if you lose some energy in the extra medium transfers.  Does increased cost of electricity or natural gas to your home bill match or exceed gasoline costs?  Now what about if much of the country switches over to this and natural gas demand increases 2000+% ? 

Well, one problem I can see if it becomes popular is that the government would have to start taxing it.  Right now it gets a free ride on the 40 or so cents per gallon taxes imposed by the government on gasoline/diesel.

taurusowner

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Re: Honda FCX Clarity fuel cell car test drive
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2008, 05:40:09 AM »
How much does the home fuel station cost to fill your car?  If you burn X amount of gas to power your car and then switch over to burning X amount of something else to create electricity to power your car, what's changed?  Especially if you lose some energy in the extra medium transfers.  Does increased cost of electricity or natural gas to your home bill match or exceed gasoline costs?  Now what about if much of the country switches over to this and natural gas demand increases 2000+% ? 

Because we have centuries of natural gas in the US. We only import like 3% of what we use. It can also be made with high efficiency by everything from landfills to bioreactors digesting organic waste, like sewage. That's the difference. 

It doesn't really matter how much we have, someone still has to pull it out of the ground, make it usable, store it and transport it.  That all costs money.  Increased demand = increased price.  Will the increased price still be worth the chanegover?

atomd

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Re: Honda FCX Clarity fuel cell car test drive
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2008, 05:56:34 AM »
I've heard of 3 new cars in the last 3 weeks that are either hybrid, FC or something of that nature. We've had this technology for a long time. It looks like they see that the demand is finally here. Now if only they could just make them look good......

It's interesting. Do you think these would have sold well 5 years ago? 10?

Firethorn

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Re: Honda FCX Clarity fuel cell car test drive
« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2008, 06:08:32 AM »
It's interesting. Do you think these would have sold well 5 years ago? 10?

Not at the price premium the extra/alternative parts impose.  Now with gas approaching $5/gallon, the equations change.

Of course, I have to wonder why Europe isn't buying our entire stock of hybrids and such, given their extra cost for gasoline.

atomd

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Re: Honda FCX Clarity fuel cell car test drive
« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2008, 07:15:59 AM »
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Not at the price premium the extra/alternative parts impose.  Now with gas approaching $5/gallon, the equations change.

The Prius seems to be doing ok and that isn't really saving anyone any money. They have been making it for over 10 years now so someone must have been buying them. Some Prius owners (in city driving) are claiming they are only getting around 35mpg. You can buy a car that gets around 30mpg for about $10,000 less.

Even if the Prius got 50mpg @ $4/gal and you drove it more miles per year, it still wouldn't be a good value (as far as gas savings goes)....but people still buy them for other reasons. To me they don't seem that much nicer or of much better quality than say...a Corolla or Matrix (and there's no claim of them lasting any longer than a Corolla or Matrix either). I didn't factor in the interest some people are paying on that extra $10,000...or having to replace the battery around 100k miles like I've heard about.

From a spending angle, it seems we are just financing our gas purchases instead of paying as we go. Someday it will make sense but I don't see that happening in the next few years anyways. Time will tell.

Manedwolf

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Re: Honda FCX Clarity fuel cell car test drive
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2008, 07:58:57 AM »
To me they don't seem that much nicer or of much better quality than say...a Corolla or Matrix (and there's no claim of them lasting any longer than a Corolla or Matrix either)

That looks like a primary difference in this. There's closeup pictures of the dash out there. This isn't a fuel-cell Civic. It's a fuel-cell Accord or Acura TL in interior design and materials quality, at least in appearance. Big difference.

Firethorn

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Re: Honda FCX Clarity fuel cell car test drive
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2008, 09:32:40 AM »
The Prius seems to be doing ok and that isn't really saving anyone any money. They have been making it for over 10 years now so someone must have been buying them. Some Prius owners (in city driving) are claiming they are only getting around 35mpg. You can buy a car that gets around 30mpg for about $10,000 less.

Well, you always have the smug factor, but some people want the extra weight(IE features) and accelleration that a hybrid can offer while still getting good gas mileage.

The price difference between a Honda Civic and the hybrid equivalent, for example, is about $2-3k. 

I'm going to go with an almost exclusive city driver.  Let's say our test subject is an independent inner city taxi driver, salesman or something.  Lotsa mileage, all city.
NonHybrid: 25.  Hybrid: 40.  Gas: $5/gallon.  Hybrid: $3k extra
Cost per mile: $.20 vs $.13
Break even point: 40k miles.  Less than 3 years for the 'Average' driver who goes 15k miles a year.  Doable.  If we figure gas is going to float at $4 for the next few years, it'd be 50k miles, a little over 3 years.

It doesn't much sense for the highway driver - over seven years with gas at $5.  Of course, if we figure he drives twice as many miles, that'd drop it to 3.6 years.

On the Toyota side - the Prius mentioned is cheaper than the civic hybrid and gets better gas mileage, and has more passanger volume and cargo room.  The Matrix seems to be a pretty close competitor - but is 6.5k cheaper.  Still, the Prius gets better city mileage - it's break even point would be 4.5 years at 68k miles.

Disclaimer:  I got my information off of Honda and Toyota's sites using published EPA mileage.  I make no claim as to the suitability of any given vehicle for any given task, or the comparability between them.  As  the EPA says, mileage varies depending on driving patterns.

The Annoyed Man

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Re: Honda FCX Clarity fuel cell car test drive
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2008, 09:33:22 AM »
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Even if the Prius got 50mpg @ $4/gal and you drove it more miles per year, it still wouldn't be a good value (as far as gas savings goes)....but people still buy them for other reasons.

That's right.  Owning a Prius isn't all about mileage.  More important is the self assured, smug high you get showing everyone else you're environmentally responsible.

I thought I'd say it first  laugh

Brad Johnson

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Re: Honda FCX Clarity fuel cell car test drive
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2008, 09:49:20 AM »
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it's break even point would be 4.5 years at 68k miles.

You aren't figuring in the cost of the replacement battery pack.  They are supposed to last 150-200k, but seem to be needing replacement in the real world at around 100k. Figure Add $5000-$7000.

Add that cost to total ownership (treat it as fuel).  The numbers shift significantly.

Brad
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Firethorn

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Re: Honda FCX Clarity fuel cell car test drive
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2008, 11:03:12 AM »
Add that cost to total ownership (treat it as fuel).  The numbers shift significantly.

Do you have any figures on the 100k?  Oh, and the latest I've seen the battery packs have dropped to a more reasonable $2-3k.

The critical point to remember is that the core charge is going to be quite high for the battery - it's quite recyclable so the company wants it back.  If yours is reasonably intact they'll pay you for it.

Besides, even if the battery needs replacement at 100k, it's still located a ways beyond the break even point.