an interesting map....

[ssn vet]

I found this one pretty interesting.....
I knew about most of the earlier kingdoms, but not the various Islamic conquests.  Little gap in my history lessons?
I am NOT trying to stir the pot...but that it probably unavoidable.

If the U.N. robbed the Palestinian people of their "state" when Israel was established.  What form of government did that state have?  Who was it's leader?

I'm not trying to be provocative, though that's probably unavoidable.  Rather I'm trying to understand what the basis for the Palestinian claim to "their" land is, as it appears that they have always been a ruled people, with one overlord suplanting another.  I don't see that they ever had independance or were a legitimate state.

I certainly question the right of the U.N. (as voice of the "international community") to doll out states to this ethnic group or that.

Click on the map, it's pretty interesting....

-----------
Click on this link and you'll find an animated map of Middle East -
5000 years in 90 seconds.  

This is an amazing, constantly changing map of the Middle East,
European, North Africa and  Asian region, illustrating how various
"empires" have risen and fallen in the past 5000 years.

http://www.mapsofwar.com/images/EMPIRE17.swf

--------

I am now donning my fire retardant cover alls

[Nitrogen]

Something not a lot of people realize...

Read up on the UN Partition plan for Palestine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan
If they had agreed, they'd have had an Arab state already.  It'd have looked like this:


The Arabs said no to this, and started killing Jews on the day after the vote.

[Manedwolf]

Something not a lot of people realize...

Read up on the UN Partition plan for Palestine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan
If they had agreed, they'd have had an Arab state already.  It'd have looked like this:


The Arabs said no to this, and started killing Jews on the day after the vote.

SS will be along presently to deliver the CAIR-revised version.

[Harold Tuttle]

That map kinda missed the whole WWII event

[wmenorr67]

They only had 90 seconds.

[ssn vet]

That map kinda missed the whole WWII event

The animated map ony shows the rise and fall of empires that conquered Palestine (Israel).

interestingly enough, WWII didn't seem to go there.

I'm not a history prof., but I'm not aware of any German action in Palestine.

Palestine was under English occupation after WWI saw the demise of the Ottoman Turks, but Palestine was apparently not very significant to the Nazi's.

[Sindawe]

I don't see that they ever had independance or were a legitimate state.

Does one need to be part of a "legitimate state" (what ever THAT is) to lay claim to a plot of land?  Maybe I'm the odd bird out, but I risk to differ.  Certainly having a state helps defend the claim, but one has it by right of long occupation over generations and having roots and ties to that plot of land.

Something the Arabs in the region now known as Israel seem to have conveniently forgotten is that Jewish residency there extends far back into antiquity.  Unless they are claiming to be decedents of the ancient Cannanites, who themselves occupied land claimed by others.

[Balog]

Kind of reminds me of Indians whining about having their land stolen by the evil white man. Ironic, given that they in many cases acquired the land through warfare. Or genocide, in the case of the Apaches taking Anasazi land.

[Harold Tuttle]

The Arabs took the side of the Axis, either overtly like Iraq or indirectly by withholding support for the Allies. Grand Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini issued a fatwa- "summons to a holy war against Britain" in May 1941. The Mufti's widely heralded proclamation against Britain was declared in Iraq, where he was instrumental in "the pro-Nazi" Iraqi revolt of 1941.

In the 1930s, the fascist regimes that arose in Italy and Germany sought greater stakes in the Middle East, and began courting Arab leaders to revolt against their British and French custodians. Among their many willing accomplices was Jerusalem Mufti Haj Amin el-Husseini, who fled Palestine after agitating against the British during the Arab Revolt of 1936-39. He found refuge in Iraq  another British mandate  where he again topped the British most wanted list after helping pull the strings behind the Iraqi coup of 1941. The revolt in Baghdad was orchestrated by Hitler as part of a strategy to squeeze the region between the pincers of Rommel's troops in North Africa, German forces in the Caucuses and pro-Nazi forces in Iraq. However, in June 1941 British troops put down the rebellion and the Mufti escaped via Tehran to Italy and eventually to Berlin

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_during_ww2.php

[MicroBalrog]

Something the Arabs in the region now known as Israel seem to have conveniently forgotten is that Jewish residency there extends far back into antiquity.  Unless they are claiming to be decedents of the ancient Cannanites, who themselves occupied land claimed by others.

For the Nth time.

The people who are launching the Kassams and sending the suicide bombers are PALESTINIANS. They are not Israeli Arabs. They are not IN Israel. Israel does not WANT their silly land. Israel does not CLAIM Gaza or the West Bank is ISraeli territory.

ISraeli Arabs are NOT Palestinians, and most of them would be offended if you said otherwise.

Grrr.

[Tallpine]

My historical understanding is that all peoples (Jews and Arabs) residing in the area that became "Israel" were offered full equal citizenship in the new Israeli state.

Some "Arabs" accepted and at least a few were even elected to parliament.  Their standard of living is about 10x that of neighboring Arab states, but a number of Palestinian Arabs decided to get pissy and become outlaws.

Is that not true ...?

[MicroBalrog]

The Palestinians are outside the border of Israel as pre-1967 war (Green Line). To my knowledge, the Knesset never did officially annex the parts outside the Green Line.

The Israeli-Arabs sit inside the Line.

They have blue Israeli national ID's, just like me. They vote. Some of them vote for the retarded 'Arab parties' (I call  them retarded because their MK's make utterly insane pronouncements on the Knesset floor), others vote for the regular Labour, Meretz, and even (gasp!) Likud. The Arab that's sitting in the cabinet now (I don't remember his name) is in Kadima.

[Tallpine]

Okay, so the "Palestinians" are just pissy because they don't like their neighbor 

[MicroBalrog]

Okay, so the "Palestinians" are just pissy because they don't like their neighbor 

And because they don't have independence. THe way this worked is that while we didn't claim the land, we still wanted to administer it, run it, settle it, etc. THe idea was that at a later moment, when future negotiations would inevitably be held with the Arab would, we would be able to annex large chunks because "hey, our people are already on it."

Now we are in a situation where the Army still claims the power to give orders to people inside the West Bank, set up roadblocks to prevent people from traveling internally, etc., and the settlers are still around, too. Of course, we can't just leave and let the place be, because it'll be overrun by terrorists, or so the argument goes.

At this stage, no ISraeli outside the settlers or the really nationalist right wants to hold on to that area.

Judging by polls and election results, I think most of us would just rather we could let the Palestinians be independent, we would let them go and they would leave us alone.

It keeps not working out because most people don't trust the Palestinians to be willing or able to abide by such a deal. Can't blame people for not trusting the Palestinians, really.

[ssn vet]

we would let them go and they would leave us alone

lilke they have in Gaza?

[MicroBalrog]

we would let them go and they would leave us alone

lilke they have in Gaza?

Exactly the problem.

[taurusowner]

Unfortunately, while on your side you have the few ultra nationalists who want to claim the land, the palestinians also have their share of nutjobs who want Israel to stop existing.  So even if your country can be convinced to let go, who's convincing the nutjobs on the palestinians side to stop shooting rockets at you? 

[280plus]

Good read...

[MillCreek]

As an interesting bit of personal history, my father flew Corsairs for the Navy in WWII, and was in the Naval Reserve after WWII.  He was in college in Arkansas in 1948, when he was approached to go fly Spitfires for the Israelis during the 1948 war as a 'volunteer'.  His CO of his unit put the kibosh on it, but one of my Dad's friends resigned his reserve commission and went off to fly for the Israelis.  He made a tidy sum of money, came back to Arkansas afterward, and bought a farm with the proceeds.