Look out! It's a cross!

[BryanP]

Maybe it wasn't what you intended, but this statement shows disdain for religion in general:

While I agree that contests about whose religion is better are stupid, the use of terms like "imaginary friend" when referring to the deity(ies) held dear by those of faith is going to offend people of many religious backgrounds.

True enough, except that at that time in my life I was still a believer.   I just didn't go to the right clubhouse.  So no.

[Balog]

"Less competent" people are promoted all the time for any number of reasons. I'd rather not have the .gov involved in telling business owners who they can promote and why. If you don't like the way your company is being ran I'd suggest getting a new job.

Actually it needs to be just that in some cases.  I've worked in places where if you weren't of a particular variation of Christianity you might as well give up on any plans for advancement. 

It's a problem when it's an unwritten rule that nobody would admit to.  I just kept seeing people who I knew were less competent than me being promoted over me with BS explanations.  Fortunately the private franchise was bought out by the corporate parent.  Once that happened I took great pleasure in being promoted over the "my imaginary friend is cooler than your imaginary friend" morons who only stayed above me because they were in the right club.

I don't have any disdain for religious people until they use my lack of belief in their particular faith against me.  In fact, I never said a single word about what faith (if any) I followed while I worked there. 

So .gov needs to interfere in the promotion process because you were passed over because you weren't a Christian. Except you were a Christian at the time. And no one at the office knew anything about your religious beliefs. Yeah, that makes sense. 

Maybe your boss didn't like you and passed you over for non-religious reasons.

Edit: Ah, I see you've edited your post. The point still stands that if no one knew anything about your faith, it seems doubtful they used your faith as a reason to not promote you. Isn't it amazing how everyone is always so sure they deserve to be promoted and only got screwed out of it unfairly? Kinda like how everyone thinks they're a great driver...

And really, what's wrong with letting people use whatever criteria for hiring and promotion they want? If Schlomo only wants to hire other UO to work in his kosher deli, what's wrong with that? If Ibn al Rassim only wants to hire other Muslims in his halal shop why is that wrong?

[Seenterman]

If Schlomo only wants to hire other UO to work in his kosher deli, what's wrong with that? If Ibn al Rassim only wants to hire other Muslims in his halal shop why is that wrong?

At a certain point it becomes religious discrimination.

Where that point is? Don't ask me but it has to be pretty obvious to be discrimination.
Like if your employer told you "Ehh I don't like Mormons, you'll never be promoted here, you should just leave."
That would be discrimination.

[makattak]

At a certain point it becomes religious discrimination.

Where that point is? Don't ask me but it has to be pretty obvious to be discrimination.
Like if your employer told you "Ehh I don't like Mormons, you'll never be promoted here, you should just leave."
That would be discrimination.

And, again, what is wrong with that?

If it's an unsustainable business model, the business will fail.

If you don't like it and want to use the government to force your will on them, how is that any different than using the government to force people to go to the right church?

[Balog]

At a certain point it becomes religious discrimination.

Where that point is? Don't ask me but it has to be pretty obvious to be discrimination.
Like if your employer told you "Ehh I don't like Mormons, you'll never be promoted here, you should just leave."
That would be discrimination.

And this is the .gov's concern why? If it's a .gov job, sure there should be nothing like that. But why is it the .gov's concern how a business owners decides who to promote?

[brimic]

Quote
If Schlomo only wants to hire other UO to work in his kosher deli, what's wrong with that? If Ibn al Rassim only wants to hire other Muslims in his halal shop why is that wrong?

At a certain point it becomes religious discrimination.

Where that point is? Don't ask me but it has to be pretty obvious to be discrimination.
Like if your employer told you "Ehh I don't like Mormons, you'll never be promoted here, you should just leave."
That would be discrimination.

I don't see the problem really. If one wants to set up an authentic Deli or Middle eastern restaurant, how is that different than Hooter's waitress hiring policy? How is it different than the predominantly Asian cooks who work at Japanese Hibachi restaurants?
On the Mormon example, how many people outside of Mormons would still be doing doing business with them if word got out?

[Seenterman]

Well depending. . . .
Does you business receive any government grants, or public funding, or government substitutes?

Well if it does you can't accept gov money which comes from all tax payers white, black, brown, yellow, purple, and then say "Hey we don't want  purple people working here!" That's illegal and rightly so.

But if its a totally private business, well then your starting to argue Big Gov Vs. Privacy/Choice and its a valid argument to have if the gov should be allowed to decided who your allowed to work in your business but as it is now, yes its illegal to not hire people based off of race, religion, disability ect.
 
EDIT:
Speaking of Hooters lol. . . This lawsuit is a bit stupid, but the guy got a settlement with Hooters which I doubt they would have done if they thought they'd win the lawsuit.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,517334,00.html

[brimic]

yes its illegal to not hire people based off of race, religion, disability ect.
 

So if I'm wheel chair bound and want to be Mickey Mouse at the Magic Kingdom, it would be discrimination if Disney didn't hire me?

[Ron]

n/m

[BryanP]

The point still stands that if no one knew anything about your faith, it seems doubtful they used your faith as a reason to not promote you. Isn't it amazing how everyone is always so sure they deserve to be promoted and only got screwed out of it unfairly?

It was an open secret.  Everyone knew.  I continued to work there primarily to get experience.   It was also an open secret that if you voted for anyone who didn't have an (R) after their name you'd better keep quiet about it.

I don't hate religion or religious people, btw.  Heck, many of my friends are fervent believers.    

[zahc]

I managed to chew on falafel for dinner with my family, while sitting right next to the rack containing copies of the Muslim Yellow Pages! 

I've eaten at that same restaurant. Even though I'm a Christian I also managed to get out alive.

I'm against all anti-discrimination laws because I think business owners (or anyone) should be able to discriminate against whoever they want using whatever criteria they want whether they be hiring hooters waitresses, hibachi chefs, or air traffic controllers. Maybe it's because I simultaneously believe that people should be able to shop wherever they want and buy from whoever they want using any discriminatory metric of their own.

[Balog]

It was an open secret.  Everyone knew.  I continued to work there primarily to get experience.   It was also an open secret that if you voted for anyone who didn't have an (R) after their name you'd better keep quiet about it.

I don't hate religion or religious people, btw.  Heck, many of my friends are fervent believers.    

You say that likes it a bad thing. Should gun companies be forced to hire Brady members? Can't discriminate based on politics now can we?

[BryanP]

You say that likes it a bad thing. Should gun companies be forced to hire Brady members? Can't discriminate based on politics now can we?

Heh.  I'm a live and let live kind of guy.  I don't care what your politics or religion are as long as you can perform your job.

[MicroBalrog]

I don't believe I've ever said a word on this forum in support of anti-discrimination laws.

It's my view it should be a man's legal right to hang out a 'NO DOGS AND JEWS ALLOWED' sign, if you wish. But I have a right to think a man who does that a disgusting troglodyte, and to persuade others of that viewpoint.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I don't have any disdain for religious people until they use my lack of belief in their particular faith against me.  In fact, I never said a single word about what faith (if any) I followed while I worked there. 

I'm not sure it matters what faith you follow while you worked there, nor what faith they followed.  They should be free to hire and promote for whatever reason they see fit.  Just as you should be able to quit for any reason you want.

[Iain]

Charming idealism.

[Balog]

Charming idealism.

I started to refute you, but I've come to realize Brits just seem to enjoy having the .gov tell them how to live their life and don't seem to really care about the concepts of personal responsibility or individual liberty all that much so why bother? I don't understand how you all can think like that, but unless you plan to emigrate here I don't really care anymore.

[Iain]

Now that wasn't so charming.

[MicroBalrog]

Charming idealism.

I find hilarious the sort of appeal to 'practicality' and criticism of 'idealism' that happens to coincide with wanting the 'idealist' to accept whatever measure the 'moderate' happens to support at a given spot in time.

[Iain]

I find hilarious the sort of appeal to 'practicality' and criticism of 'idealism' that happens to coincide with wanting the 'idealist' to accept whatever measure the 'moderate' happens to support at a given spot in time.

What is it you think I want you to support?

[Balog]

Sorry Iain, maybe I'm out of line but I've had about all I can take with British people telling me how they're so full of compassion and concern for their fellow man that they have the .gov run their lives for them. "Oh we banned those naughty evil guns and now we're so much better than you violent Americans. Oh we force you to pay for other people's healthcare we're so much more compassionate than you greedy Americans." Etc etc. I. Have. Bloody. Well. Had. It.

[MicroBalrog]

What is it you think I want you to support?

It seems to be you referred to "They should be free to hire and promote for whatever reason they see fit.  Just as you should be able to quit for any reason you want," as "charming idealism"? Am I wrong?

[Seenterman]

Strawman Alert!

If you don't like it and want to use the government to force your will on them, how is that any different than using the government to force people to go to the right church?

There's a big difference between forcing people to go to a certain church, temple, or synagogue and saying you can't discriminate against people based on this criteria. 

Well if it does you can't accept gov money which comes from all tax payers white, black, brown, yellow, purple, and then say "Hey we don't want  purple people working here!" That's illegal and rightly so.

Would anyone disagree with that? Are we talking about totally private businesses or businesses that also received public funding?

[Perd Hapley]

I find hilarious the sort of appeal to 'practicality' and criticism of 'idealism' that happens to coincide with wanting the 'idealist' to accept whatever measure the 'moderate' happens to support at a given spot in time.

Hilarious, indeed.  On the other hand I was once told that, instead of having public decency laws, I should exercise my right to walk around with my eyes shut, so as to avoid seeing naked people.  Very practical, that.   

[makattak]

Strawman Alert!

There's a big difference between forcing people to go to a certain church, temple, or synagogue and saying you can't discriminate against people based on this criteria. 

There is? How?

I did not set up a straw man, I asked a question. It's a matter of free association. If you don't want to use religion as an example, how is it any different from forcing people to accept women into their men's club?