Author Topic: Israeli source: IAF drill a 'dress rehearsal' for attack on Iran  (Read 5810 times)

wmenorr67

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Re: Israeli source: IAF drill a 'dress rehearsal' for attack on Iran
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2008, 07:56:38 AM »
We wouldn't have to occupy Iran.  The amount of troops they would send over the border into Iraq after us would be initally too much for our current strenth to handle.  Of course it would be a very target rich environment for the Air Force and Navy.
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RevDisk

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Re: Israeli source: IAF drill a 'dress rehearsal' for attack on Iran
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2008, 02:53:44 PM »
We wouldn't have to occupy Iran.  The amount of troops they would send over the border into Iraq after us would be initally too much for our current strenth to handle.  Of course it would be a very target rich environment for the Air Force and Navy.

Bingo.  Or potentially worse, open the flood gates on equipment and weapons, but no soldiers except token advisers/trainers/cadre. 
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LAK

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Re: Israeli source: IAF drill a 'dress rehearsal' for attack on Iran
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2008, 03:55:30 AM »
Manedwolf
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As to Iranian subs, they're toys. Only minisubs and copies of noisy Russian Kilo diesel subs. As if our attack subs aren't already tracking them all, ready to erase them without them even seeing us there. The Shkval is Tom Clancy stuff, Iran doesn't have the high-tech launch systems necessary to target them correctly. A high speed miss is...a miss. Besides, the most effective torpedoes don't hit the side of a ship at speed, they explode and form a bubble beneath the ship's keel, breaking the vessel in half.
Shkval was under developement by the Russians in the 1960s, can be armed with a tactical nuclear warhead, and they were selling an export version in Abu Dhabi in 1999. That is almost ten years ago.

It supposedly launches from standard tubes; the rocket propulsion does not engage until it is out and clear of the tube. While it is guided by predetermined target information and input, it can simply be fired back along the path of an incoming torpedo.

Regardless of what the best torpedoes do, our carriers and other surface ships have no defenses against Shkval "as we know it", and ten years later it may be alot more than that.

Manedwolf

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Re: Israeli source: IAF drill a 'dress rehearsal' for attack on Iran
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2008, 04:02:31 AM »
Manedwolf
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As to Iranian subs, they're toys. Only minisubs and copies of noisy Russian Kilo diesel subs. As if our attack subs aren't already tracking them all, ready to erase them without them even seeing us there. The Shkval is Tom Clancy stuff, Iran doesn't have the high-tech launch systems necessary to target them correctly. A high speed miss is...a miss. Besides, the most effective torpedoes don't hit the side of a ship at speed, they explode and form a bubble beneath the ship's keel, breaking the vessel in half.
Shkval was under developement by the Russians in the 1960s, can be armed with a tactical nuclear warhead, and they were selling an export version in Abu Dhabi in 1999. That is almost ten years ago.

It supposedly launches from standard tubes; the rocket propulsion does not engage until it is out and clear of the tube. While it is guided by predetermined target information and input, it can simply be fired back along the path of an incoming torpedo.

Regardless of what the best torpedoes do, our carriers and other surface ships have no defenses against Shkval "as we know it", and ten years later it may be alot more than that.

So in other words, you didn't READ anything I said, you just replied to it. See:

1. Effective targeting systems
2. What makes a modern torpedo effective

Marvin Dao

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Re: Israeli source: IAF drill a 'dress rehearsal' for attack on Iran
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2008, 06:10:55 PM »
Quote from: LAK
What if Moskits with 200 kt warheads can be detonated within predetermined distance proximities from major targets? Intercepting missiles? Iran may already have nukes in this form, be they Iranian, or Russian crewed.

If Iran had 200 kt nukes that would fit on a ASW, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Ahmadinejad would be talking about them every chance he got, the Iranians wouldn't bother with enriching weapons grade uranium, and other nations would be trying to contain the spread of nuclear weapons from Iran to other less stable regimes instead of preventing Iran from getting the nukes in the first place.

Iran's whole point of obtaining nuclear weapons is in preventing other countries from invading. Why keep one in secret, only use it when you have been invaded, and risk retribution in the form of nuclear obliteration?

Shkval was under developement by the Russians in the 1960s, can be armed with a tactical nuclear warhead, and they were selling an export version in Abu Dhabi in 1999. That is almost ten years ago.

It supposedly launches from standard tubes; the rocket propulsion does not engage until it is out and clear of the tube. While it is guided by predetermined target information and input, it can simply be fired back along the path of an incoming torpedo.

Regardless of what the best torpedoes do, our carriers and other surface ships have no defenses against Shkval "as we know it", and ten years later it may be alot more than that.

The threat from the Shkval have been consistently overstated by the US military in public in order to obtain more funds for R&D and more advanced weapons. As with every such case, the media picks it up and runs with it as an example of how doomed any military action that we undertake is. I'm rather shocked people don't realize this as it's been the case for every single other frigging Soviet weapons system since World War 2.

The Shkval's been around since the late 70's. It's old. In all this time, we haven't bothered to field our own copy. If it was a good idea, we would have arranged for one to have one delivered to us, reversed engineer it, and created our own version. The fact that we haven't done so should tell you something. Mainly, the idea sucks. The standard Shkval is a outright crappy weapon, the homing Shkval is a serviceable torpedo with novel ways of being crappy.

The standard Shkval is a terrible weapon. It's got a range of a 7 km compared to the MK48's 50 km range. Its guidance system is WWII primitive. The sub's electronics estimates the current location of a target, that location is programmed in to the Shkval, and the Shkval, using it's internal guidance, motors itself out to that point and explodes. Needless to say, CEPs are huge and the target may have even moved from the time the Shkval was fired. It was rather unlikely that a Shkval would get within any conventional warhead's kill radius, so the Russians did the prudent thing and drastically increased the kill radius by strapping on a nuke. Since tactical nukes are unlikely to be used in the near future (see above), the Shkval's back to being unlikely to kill anything. Even the defensive "force the other dude to cut the guidance cables" is unlikely to work since the Shkval is horrifically outranged and SOP is to have a torpedo make a dog leg during it's course. In either case, the Shkval would come nowhere near the enemy submarine. But wait, it gets worse! Launching a Shkval offensively pretty much reveals your location to the entire enemy fleet since the supercavitating rocket part of it is frigging loud. Given it's short range, there's no way a Shkval launching submarine would be able to escape.

The homing Shkval is somewhat better in that it actually has a chance to kill something. Same crappy range, same crappy suicide risk, but now it can actually chase a target instead of just heading out to some arbitrary spot. Just like a regular torpedo. But, there's always its novel way of being crappy. A regular torpedo in terminal guidance maintains a constant lock on it's target throughout the attack. That allows for all sorts of fancy programming that would allow it to avoid falling for the many torpedo evasion tricks that navies have developed. The Shkval... not so much. It can't track anything when it's moving at supercavitating speeds. So every time it wants an update on the target location, it has to decelerate out of the supercavitating regime, use it's sonar, find the target, discriminate between it and decoys, reposition, and accelerate again. Difficult enough when a torpedo has a constant lock. Ridiculously so in the case of the Shkval. It also loses much of it's only advantage, speed, by implementing the primitive homing function.

Both would probably work decently in mass volleys, but then again, what wouldn't? Not that it's going to be an issue. As Manedwolf said, it's highly unlikely that any of the primitive Iranian submarine would be able to get within Shkval range.

The Moskit/Sunburn seems like a fairly capable weapon, but it's really only a military issue if we invade Iran by sea. Which, considering the nice border the share with Iraq and the potential risks posed by these things, is fairly unlikely. We'll be safely out of range from any littoral craft and launch sites that Iran has, and the risk that a Iranian aircraft would be able to penetrate a carrier's fighter screen is laughable. The effects of the missiles on shipping however... That'd be nasty.

LAK

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Re: Israeli source: IAF drill a 'dress rehearsal' for attack on Iran
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2008, 05:28:05 AM »
Manedwolf,

1. When a missile - or rocket powered "torpedo" (whichever you prefer to call it) at 200 mph weighing three tons, with even a "mere" high explosive warhead strikes the hull of anything short of a carrier, it's all over. A couple hit a carrier - same result. Regardless of what some other conventional torpedoes are designed to do. The USS Stark was crippled by two Exocet - one of which didn't even explode but caused a high temperature fire. USS Cole was crippled by (we are led to believe) what amounted to a small boat with explosive parked alongside.

2. Shkval is guided by basic target information (bearing, vector, speed, distance, etc) that is fed into it's internal guidance system before launch. Once out and running, that's it. It makes a beeline for the intercept, as like firing a gun.

Marvin Dao
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If Iran had 200 kt nukes that would fit on a ASW, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Ahmadinejad would be talking about them every chance he got, the Iranians wouldn't bother with enriching weapons grade uranium, and other nations would be trying to contain the spread of nuclear weapons from Iran to other less stable regimes instead of preventing Iran from getting the nukes in the first place.

Iran's whole point of obtaining nuclear weapons is in preventing other countries from invading. Why keep one in secret, only use it when you have been invaded, and risk retribution in the form of nuclear obliteration?
I am not convinced Iran is engaged in some "enrichment program", nor anything else coming out of the current administration about any Mid East country. They have a history of claiming one thing, and then another, which are much later admitted to be untrue and just another "mistake".

Ahmadinejad doesn't have to talk about anything. Iran may well have Shkval  with tactical nuke warheads, and even if they do not, Russia (and perhaps China who have also aquired Shkval) certainly does.

Quote
The Shkval's been around since the late 70's. It's old. In all this time, we haven't bothered to field our own copy. If it was a good idea, we would have arranged for one to have one delivered to us, reversed engineer it, and created our own version. The fact that we haven't done so should tell you something. Mainly, the idea sucks. The standard Shkval is a outright crappy weapon, the homing Shkval is a serviceable torpedo with novel ways of being crappy.
Remember the Pope affair? He was arrested in Russia along with a technical advisor attempting to get information about Shkval. Evaluated with what we did know about it, we've stuck with MK48s because overall they are more versatile and have a much greater range.

"Crappy" or not, the Persian Gulf is not the open Atlantic or Pacific ocean. It is a confined body of water with alot of traffic, as is the Gulf of Oman. Even in the Arabian sea it would be difficult to tell friend from foe regarding surface vessels of all sizes.

As "crappy" as Shkval and Moskit are, they can be launched from just about any platform that will float; even converted fishing trawlers for that matter. If Iran sends enough tankers to the bottom in that region what do you think will happen to the price of oil? To say nothing of the total disruption of any oil coming out of Iran.

I do not understand why you think Iran - or Russia - are not prepared to use nukes if Iran is attacked. Iran is Russia's front doorstep, and Putin has, not suprizingly, explicitly stated that any attack on Iran will be considered an attack on Russia.

If, after retaliation from some of their other antagonists, the state of Israel is reckless enough to use nukes on Tehran, Russia will most certainly launch a direct attack and annihilate them. And Russia may do that anyway regardless. 

MicroBalrog

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Re: Israeli source: IAF drill a 'dress rehearsal' for attack on Iran
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2008, 06:32:15 AM »
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To say nothing of the total disruption of any oil coming out of Iran.

So what will the Iranians eat if they destroy the majority of their own export?
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Manedwolf

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Re: Israeli source: IAF drill a 'dress rehearsal' for attack on Iran
« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2008, 06:40:08 AM »
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To say nothing of the total disruption of any oil coming out of Iran.

So what will the Iranians eat if they destroy the majority of their own export?

72 raisins. That's what Imajihad wants, at least. The people need to throw him out.

Marvin Dao

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Re: Israeli source: IAF drill a 'dress rehearsal' for attack on Iran
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2008, 07:44:20 AM »
Quote from: LAK
Ahmadinejad doesn't have to talk about anything. Iran may well have Shkval  with tactical nuke warheads, and even if they do not, Russia (and perhaps China who have also aquired Shkval) certainly does.

...

I do not understand why you think Iran - or Russia - are not prepared to use nukes if Iran is attacked. Iran is Russia's front doorstep, and Putin has, not suprisingly, explicitly stated that any attack on Iran will be considered an attack on Russia.

If, after retaliation from some of their other antagonists, the state of Israel is reckless enough to use nukes on Tehran, Russia will most certainly launch a direct attack and annihilate them. And Russia may do that anyway regardless.

Its possible that Ahmadinejad wouldnt talk about miniaturized nukes if they had them, but only in a world where he and his state sponsors have gone either amazingly stupid or completely mad. Iran doesnt want to be invaded. Any state that would give Iran nukes doesn't want it to be invaded. The US wont invade anyone with nukes due to the risk of one of them showing up in NYC or LA. Just letting it slip through intelligence services that Iran has nukes, or access to nukes, would prevent any foreseeable invasion of Iran.

It's also possible that Russia is insane enough to start World War 3 over the destruction of Iran's nascent nuclear program, but the likelihood of that is spectacularly low. Why risk everything defending Iran when loaning Iran a nuke or two completely stops the possibility of any attack on Iran?

Quote from: LAK
As "crappy" as Shkval and Moskit are, they can be launched from just about any platform that will float; even converted fishing trawlers for that matter. If Iran sends enough tankers to the bottom in that region what do you think will happen to the price of oil? To say nothing of the total disruption of any oil coming out of Iran.

They don't need any of this to destroy oil commerce. The most effective way would be to mine the Strait of Hormuz. Boring, cheap, easy. They don't even need to destroy that many tankers with this strategy. Price/Performance of the Shkval sucks in this application. Too expensive, too short ranged, low kill probability. Moskit would be better, but it doesn't give them any anti-tanker capability they didn't have before. Older technology missiles, like indigenously produced copies of the Chinese Silkworm, would likely be more effective due to larger warheads. Tankers aren't particularly hard targets to hit.

LAK

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Re: Israeli source: IAF drill a 'dress rehearsal' for attack on Iran
« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2008, 04:53:54 AM »
MicroBalrog
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So what will the Iranians eat if they destroy the majority of their own export?
I doubt that the Iranians want to destroy anything. If they are attacked however, it is likely that some of the tankers operating from their ports will be sunk in addition to any that are operating into and out of adjacent states allied with us. In a world of artificially priced oil - where suddenly dramatic rises occurr every time a pipeline springs a leak in Timbuktu, or a BP exec stubs his big toe on an office desk leg - anyones' tankers going to the bottom will send prices soaring even higher. And that does not include any pipelines or other landbased facilities in Iran and adjacent states.

Marvin Dao
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Its possible that Ahmadinejad wouldnt talk about miniaturized nukes if they had them, but only in a world where he and his state sponsors have gone either amazingly stupid or completely mad. Iran doesnt want to be invaded. Any state that would give Iran nukes doesn't want it to be invaded.
Right; no one wants to be invaded - or attacked.

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The US wont invade anyone with nukes due to the risk of one of them showing up in NYC or LA. Just letting it slip through intelligence services that Iran has nukes, or access to nukes, would prevent any foreseeable invasion of Iran
Iran does not likely have any strategic nukes. It is quite likely though that Iran has tactical nukes, or at least those of short to intermediate range. Russia certainly has nukes. So begs the question; why are we rattling our sabres at Iran, and thus directly at Russia?

Threatening to attack Iran in order to subjugate them in a U.S./State of Israel dominated Mid East pecking order is begging a reaction from Russia as would be expected if Russia was mouthing off in like manner with Cuba accused of having a "nuke program" which was a threat to Mexico.

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It's also possible that Russia is insane enough to start World War 3 over the destruction of Iran's nascent nuclear program, but the likelihood of that is spectacularly low. Why risk everything defending Iran when loaning Iran a nuke or two completely stops the possibility of any attack on Iran?
It isn't Iran's nuclear program. Look at a map; Iran is right on the Caspian. Not only one of the richest oil, gas and mineral regions, but Russia's strategic doorstep. Russia is not going to sit and watch a U.S. dominated region run over the entire Caspian basin directly onto their doorstep without a showdown at some point.

It is the State of Israel - and our own administration that seem to be obsessed with starting WW3. In addition to stirring up the hornets' nest in the Mid east, there is the extremely unstable relations between India and Pakistan with big question marks over Kashmir, what used to be Burma to the east, and on to the border of China; Tibet. Before beating our chests and waving our sabres at Iran we ought to be thinking of the consequences of this insanity.

Apart from the potential oil shortages and price explosion, in the dreamy possibilty that Russia walks away with it's tail between it's legs - just who, with whose money, is going to foot the bill for this one? We are already pushing for "sanctions" against Iran, which will cripple it's economy, and as in Iraq, lead to the unjust suffering of a great many people. Who is going to "save them" and "rebuild" when it is all over with? The criminal cartel of "The United Nations"? The State of Israel's public purse? BP's and Royal Dutch-Shell's newly conquered Iranian oil receipts?