Author Topic: Improving THR  (Read 8513 times)

Oleg Volk

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« Reply #50 on: May 19, 2006, 09:27:44 PM »
The "super-secret forum in the sky" is a test vehicle for the things I am planning for THR at large. A few folks were kind enough to serve as enlisted guinea pigs. I learned a lot. Do not be offended to learn that you are not invited to every party in every home on every weekend. I can't invite all of THR to my home, nor can I invite everyone to an on-line forum which is running in test mode.

Some of the conclusions:

The quality of the forums is decided largely by the quality of the participants, not by the rules set up by me. Corollary: the most improvement will happen by inviting interesting people from elsewhere (the way Tamara and rnchick ware invited from Glocktalk) and by removing the most base and offensive varmints. In the past, I tried to salvage the varmints, I will no longer try to do so. Membership THR will mirror my real-life relationships: at the initial triage, newcomers will have a chance to become friends, acquaintances or be removed as nuisances.

Duplicate or over-done topics: I plan on making a "smiley" to look like a rubber stamp reading "please search the archives first."

Crass, offensive or retarded behavior will be punished by removal of the account.

I am an elitist -- I strive to better myself and I prefer to keep good company. I will apply my judgement directly or through like-minded proxies and not try to be all-inclusive. If certain behavior would be unwelcome in my home, it will be unwelcome on THR. I am tired of trying to second-guess my own decisions, so I'll stop. Ideally, I will not have to do any policing at all. Name calling will be discouraged: it reduces the precision of the debate.

For a well-run venue, look at http://volokh.com -- the participants stay factual and civil, often despite having strong feelings about the events or the personalities involved.

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« Reply #51 on: May 19, 2006, 09:56:37 PM »
Any forum that is open to the public is going to be a reflection of the demographic of the internet at large and specifically the portion of that population that is interested in the forum's focus. No amount of rules will actually change this. The rules can control some of the content and have a slight impact on behavior, but a forum is always a reflection of it's membership no matter how hard one tries to control it.

The only way to really stear a forum into a direction is by controlling membership, but that route also leads to a stagnation of content and you end up with a stale and dull repetition of the same basic posts over and over again. Im sure people have been members of small tightly knit forums and all the sub-lingo and cute little exchange that comes with it, it gets to a point where every post starts to look the same and all the people act exactly how they are expected to. Its friendly and non-threatening, it is also mind-numbingly boring. We occasionaly veer in that direction over here. You get the same people replying to each other with essentially the same posts, lots of noise, little content.

...has left the building.

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« Reply #52 on: May 20, 2006, 05:37:23 AM »
IME forum "tone" is decided by an extremely small number of members. This core member group is almost like having 50 moderators in a forum. It is possible that with your new invite-only forum, that many of these members have quit posting and reading THR as frequently. Thus, the tone of the forum has changed for the worse.

Old Fud

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« Reply #53 on: May 20, 2006, 06:07:48 AM »
"If certain behavior would be unwelcome in my home, it will be unwelcome on THR. I am tired of trying to second-guess my own decisions, so I'll stop."

Bravo!!!
Enough of the agonizing and "how can I please you?" soul-searching.

I have a confession --- it's hard for me to tell the difference between TFL and THR.
That's because the "core body" is the same people.
Which means I can't remember who said what on which forum, or if he/she simply expressed themselves twice.  It comes out the same.

At the time I joined up, TFL was back on line and I set up accounts on both.
Now my favorites list has 3 in a row, with APS on the list (which means I visit APS just as easily as I used to visit Round Table, and I never have understood all the fuss and bother over the switch.)

Within a week of joining, I was introduced to the "Art's Grandmaw" rule --- and I don't remember which forum it came from either -- nor does it matter because Art and his Grandmaw are on both.

Now Oleg says "This is my home. People I don't like will leave."  I'll buy that too.

What has impressed me MOST has been the way mods and sr. members catch and correct bad manners AS TEACHERS WOULD.  They point out the exact nature of the "fault" and require immediate improvement  --- no quick judgments, second chances offered, mature tolerance being the norm.  The chop comes only when the offer is rejected and then without rancor.  

Personally, I think you are doing just fine.
Thanks.

Fud
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garrettwc

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« Reply #54 on: May 20, 2006, 06:09:31 AM »
Oleg, I will throw out a suggestion. The forum software should be customizable as to "language" allowed. You should be able to add phrases such as "demoncrats", "republican'ts", etc to the list of foul language banned from usage.

As I mentioned in my other post, Vbulletin can be set up to automatically warn the offender and lock their account after a certain number of infractions. That will do some of the work for you. Then you and the mods can focus on topic content.

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« Reply #55 on: May 20, 2006, 06:13:19 AM »
Oleg:

That sounds like it would work.

Also, I would second (third?) the notion of someone having to make 100+ posts in the gun fora before being allowed to post in L&P, where most of the rancor develops.
Regards,

roo_ster

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Iain

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« Reply #56 on: May 20, 2006, 08:03:27 AM »
Quote from: jfruser
Also, I would second (third?) the notion of someone having to make 100+ posts in the gun fora before being allowed to post in L&P, where most of the rancor develops.
I can't agree with this. Had this rule been in place I would never have been a member of THR. Of course that might be a good thing in the eyes of some...

Obviously a large part of my involvement in THR has been perhaps more APS suitable material, but I pre-date Roundtable and APS. I'd never have been able to participate at all if this suggestion had been in place, and neither would the vast majority of people who come from firearm unfriendly countries. L&P provided a means for myself, and others to interact with the THR community and it was a chance for the THR community to get its message across.

I can't say with 100% certainty that I've never been a troublesome member of L&P's 'regulars', but I can certainly think of a few instances where a poster whose username I was unfamiliar with but who had way more that 100 posts caused some serious headaches in L&P. There was a poster just recently whjo had around 100 posts who was the cause of much unpleasantness.
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Oleg Volk

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« Reply #57 on: May 20, 2006, 11:04:53 AM »
Ironically, APS has been less troublesome in terms of incivility. Only half-dozen people caused problems. In general, the tone has been very good. Granted, it is a small forum, but it is also rather less moderated and yet it works well.

280plus

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« Reply #58 on: May 20, 2006, 11:18:05 AM »
Super secret forum in the sky? Do you all get special decoder rings? That's OK Oleg, I got my own secret thingie going on that I belong to, see:

For your eyes only: Yahoo! Mail Beta
You VIP you! As one of our best users, you've earned an invitation-only test drive of a faster and easier way to use Yahoo! Mail. It's free. Be among the first to try it .

So there... Tongue

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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #59 on: May 20, 2006, 11:33:10 AM »
Quote from: Oleg Volk
Ironically, APS has been less troublesome in terms of incivility. Only half-dozen people caused problems.
What happened to Masterpiece Arms?  He was hilarious.
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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #60 on: May 20, 2006, 11:42:24 AM »
You think?!  

I thought it was priceless that he spread invective and insults far and wide, yet in his mind, he was the only one interested in serious discussion.  

I think he must have been conciously trolling, anyway.
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280plus

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« Reply #61 on: May 20, 2006, 12:04:16 PM »
I have found actually that a lot of time if you just ignore the BS and do not respond it will go away. MA was feeding onthe irate relplies he (or she?) was getting. Maybe that's why APS works. Most people here seem to say, "Yea, whatever." and move along to something better. Notice I said most...

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Iain

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« Reply #62 on: May 20, 2006, 01:34:19 PM »
APS does work rather well. As someone who always got a bit concerned when the focus of L&P was sharpened up a bit (and I never disagreed with the reasoning) I'm glad that a place was found for these sorts of discussions amongst us lot.
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White Horseradish

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« Reply #63 on: May 21, 2006, 06:47:44 PM »
GoRon, you oughta see how they piled up on me when I brought the name-calling up...
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gunsmith

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« Reply #64 on: May 21, 2006, 07:04:18 PM »
I am replying but have not yet read the thread, just the original question.
imo the roundtable was one of the best things I ever encountered on the internet, & I would like to access
those threads again and see it revived.

I do not think you should agonize over banning people, some people do not value thr and could care less about what it means taking the high road. Myself, I am really opinionated and quite the curmudgeon & thr has really help me moderate myself.
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« Reply #65 on: May 22, 2006, 04:12:08 AM »
Quote from: Blackburn
#1 thing is still this secret squirrel BS when it comes to someone getting out of line. When someone does something bad, put it on display as punishment and make it absolutely clear (with plenty of mocking) why they were in the wrong. People will learn a HECK of a lot faster by example that way.
Kind'a like the pillory and stocks of pre revolutionary war New England? Cheesy

So what it appears that you are suggesting sounds like you want to ban the evil do'ers to their own forum where they must stay until they learn to behave all the while having virtual rotten vegetables tossed at 'em. Kinda like prison only in THR prison you don't get out until you toe the line, bow to the masters and just like a dog lick their smelly feet with a loving smile on your face.

Hmmm...

Sounds like a plan.
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roo_ster

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« Reply #66 on: May 22, 2006, 08:32:41 AM »
Quote from: Blackburn
#1 thing is still this secret squirrel BS when it comes to someone getting out of line. When someone does something bad, put it on display as punishment and make it absolutely clear (with plenty of mocking) why they were in the wrong. People will learn a HECK of a lot faster by example that way.
Yep, I agree.  

A parting post by a mod saying, "tr0ll_bate got this thread locked  and himself banned because he did A, B, & C."

Some folks need examples of what is OUT of line.  Perhaps a "Hall of Shame," where the naughty threads can be exiled.
Regards,

roo_ster

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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #67 on: May 22, 2006, 08:52:19 AM »
Why stop there?  Hijack their screen-names, and use them to say all manner of embarassing things.  Example:

Quote
SuperCool1911guy:  All you Glock guys are sissy fags with wimpy Eurapein tuperwear guns!

SC1911g is now banned, as this is the latest in a long string of abuses, and his screen-name is hijacked.

[hijacked]SuperCool1911guy:  Hey, ya know what?  My boyfriend just got a Glock and it is super-tacticool-awesome!  After Lyle and I go trade in our 1911's we are going to take our new Glocks to the Pink Pistols Shoot, where hopefully I will hit some paper, maybe around the edges, if Lyle holds my hand and shows me how.
This is fun, I'll do another.

Quote
FundyConservative:  Nietzsche06, it is secularist trash like you that is ruining my country!  I hope you Darwin yourself and the sooner the better!  

another banning and hijacking

[hijacked]FundyConservative:  Man, I just saw the Davinci Code and I just...I don't know.  What with that and Farrinhiet 9/11, I just can't believe in anything anymore.  It's all a sham!  I figure if I quit my job and collect some govt. aid, I can probably afford to get an apartment by myself and have lots of hookers over.  Maybe I could get them to bring some heroin.  If my wife doesn't find me, I can probably get away without paying child support.
I don't know, is that a tad harsh?
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« Reply #68 on: May 22, 2006, 08:54:28 AM »
I've read again "Atlas Shrugged" and "1984". Currently reading again "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress".

I recall for some reason the old joke about the fellow finding out after being married to the same women for 50 years - she used "How to train your dog" as a marriage guide not only for husband - also herself.

Somewhere in all them works is the answer I am pretty sure.

Does vB allow ladies to call the forum "Michelle" and the gents to call it "Mike" ?  That might be a start...dunno...

What do I know, I keep flip-flopping b/t Galt's Gultch, Heinlein's Crater, and Big Brother...and craving dog biscuits.

Telperion

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« Reply #69 on: May 22, 2006, 12:37:01 PM »
Speaking of creative ways to deal with trolls:

I have heard that vBulletin 3 has a neat feature called "send to coventry" or the like, whereby the affected user doesn't think he is banned, and can still post, but his posts are completely invisible to everyone but himself.  Nothing sends a troll packing like being ignored.

Gewehr98

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« Reply #70 on: May 22, 2006, 12:45:10 PM »
Nope.  Not a good thing.

Quote
#1 thing is still this secret squirrel BS when it comes to someone getting out of line. When someone does something bad, put it on display as punishment and make it absolutely clear (with plenty of mocking) why they were in the wrong. People will learn a HECK of a lot faster by example that way.
And that fits in with the forum name of The High Road just how?  Particularly the "plenty of mocking" part, I'm curious how that portrays what a forum wants to convey with respect to class and dignity?  AR-15.com, ok.  Democratic Underground, you bet. The High Road, no.
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Gewehr98

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« Reply #71 on: May 22, 2006, 04:53:41 PM »
Blackburn, my response above was not a personal attack.  It's one thing to make known that an individual made a mistake on a forum and suffered the consequences.  It's another to have "plenty of mocking" to add insult to injury - it goes way above and beyond, and serves only to belittle the transgressor. If you want to dredge things up, I'll simply refer you to a certain thread where you badmouthed another forum member and gloated over his getting called out on a sister forum, who *just happened* to be a business associate and friend of mine.  That's a risk one takes when one contracts diarrhea of the mouth on an internet forum, you never know when it's going to bite you in the ass or you get called out on it.  Back 40+ years ago when I was being raised, we called it "bad form", and even now, airing another's dirty laundry in public is never a good thing.  My 20 years in the military has made me one hell of an ahole when I feel the need is warranted and I can be as spiteful, coy, and conniving as the next faceless internet username. But even somebody as uncultured and boorish as myself knows where the boundaries are.  That's why you'll never see me ask why you were booted off of THR, or why you won't volunteer to post the contents of the final "you're outta here" PM from the mods there.  It crosses the line, I have too much respect for your privacy and dignity, and my requesting does nothing to enhance the APS experience in the least bit.  Likewise, publicly mocking others for thier indiscretions or mistakes on an internet forum is petty, immature, demeaning, rude, insensitive, tasteless, and just plain cruel.  If it was my forum, I wouldn't tolerate such behavior.  Who would want to visit and participate in a forum where that kind of talk is encouraged or tolerated? Oleg runs a class act over at THR.  You want AR-15.com or DemocraticUnderground, THR ain't it.

Now, if you want to hang dirty laundry from the highest flagpole yourself, have at it.  If you take delight in mocking others on a forum for nothing other than your sheer enjoyment, knock yourself out.  I appreciate the insight into your character, and it reinforces my understanding of why you want a half-dozen sock puppets to infiltrate THR.  But do it somewhere else, ok?  I like what Oleg and crew have started with THR and APS.  I don't want to see it devolve into a free-for-all flame and slamfest.
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« Reply #72 on: May 22, 2006, 05:18:26 PM »
You know, you catch more bees with honey than you do with vinegar.  It took me a long while to learn that simple lesson.  I have regrets about that.  I still have to work at my own advice.

The purpose of THR is twofold in my opinion.  It's a place where folks of like mind about firearms and firearm related subjects can gather and edify one another.  It is also a place where those who perhaps are undecided or perhaps even opposed about our culture can also gather and judge for themselves which way they should fall in the matter of firearms and firearm related subjects.  How we are judged is based on our behavior.

Having said that, everybody has an opinion just like they have a certain orifice.  Frankly, if one reads the rules of THR, the place should not even need moderators.  Sigh....human nature being as it is, sometimes those opinions are  held in check about as succesfully as is the product of the other orifice.

If someone gets out of line, a member should gently remind that person about the rules he agreed to.  Not heeded?  A moderator also gives a gentle nudge by PM.  If the person doesn't catch on then, boot em.  Nobody has to be told anything.  The violator is gone because he failed to keep his word.  Why that person is no longer around should be painfully obvious by his previous behavior.  We are all here by invite of Oleg and we should respect his rules.  Don't wanna do that?  Well the internet is a big place.
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Matthew Carberry

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« Reply #73 on: May 22, 2006, 08:13:14 PM »
I think that was his point Blackburn.

Use the stocks, hold off on the rotten vegetables. Smiley

I can see the reasoning behind the "no reasons given" locks, they do, to a point, try to prevent the disagreeing with the cause idiot or his buds to whinge in a new thread.  But we get that anyway.

A clear description of what in that post was not tolerable and why would serve to educate the newer folks who may not see the "self-evidentiaryness" of it and establish a guide of where the lines fall.

I've found (usually after writing an apologetic PM to the locking mod, especially if I theoretically knew better) they will tell me what in particular provoked the response.  Doing it instead of the "That's It" kind of final lock post makes sense.

Like the sign posted above the poor fellow in the stocks explaining what his crime against society was.
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