Author Topic: Finland to end universal basic income program  (Read 1478 times)

Angel Eyes

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Finland to end universal basic income program
« on: April 25, 2018, 03:06:46 PM »
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2018/04/25/finland-to-end-its-universal-basic-income-program-by-years-end.html
Quote
"Proponents said the program wasn’t comprehensive enough to gauge its merits," Whitley wrote.

Socialism isn't working because we don't have enough of it!

Meanwhile:

https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/democratic-presidential-hopeful-wants-to-give-citizens-1000-a-month

Quote
A Democratic presidential hopeful for the 2020 presidency is proposing $1,000 a month for all for all citizens between the ages of 18 and 64 as part of a universal basic income program.

There's lots of silliness in the article, of the "subsidize the buggy whip makers" variety.
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230RN

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Re: Finland to end universal basic income program
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2018, 08:43:34 AM »
Just bait for the gimme-gimme voters.

"Socialism isn't working because we don't have enough of it!"  A working premise for most leftists.
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MechAg94

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Re: Finland to end universal basic income program
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2018, 11:03:19 AM »
Quote
The initial move was met with skepticism from citizens who questioned whether an unemployed young person would be motivated to find a job if they were making a steady income, albeit small.

“There is a fear that with basic income they would just stay at home and play computer games,” Heikki Hiilamo, a professor at the University of Helsinki, told the paper.
Well....yeah.  People often need an external reason to work hard and apply themselves. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

just Warren

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Re: Finland to end universal basic income program
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2018, 12:38:03 PM »
I promise everybody a job in the salt mines for life lifetime may be subject to restrictions for you and your family!
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K Frame

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Re: Finland to end universal basic income program
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2018, 01:52:15 PM »
How much you want to be that they don't adjust the tax rates to account for giving free *expletive deleted*it to people...
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K Frame

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Re: Finland to end universal basic income program
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2018, 01:54:32 PM »
"The initial move was met with skepticism from citizens who questioned whether an unemployed young person would be motivated to find a job if they were making a steady income, albeit small."

How DARE they question the basic tenets of paternal socialism?

They should be jailed immediately!
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Firethorn

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Re: Finland to end universal basic income program
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2018, 03:18:01 PM »
Okay, I'll admit that I'm a supporter of a modest UBI.  Thoughts on the article:
1.  No analysis of the outcome of the trial was listed.  So we don't know if it actually had positive results or not.
2.  Part of the idea of an UBI, at least how I'd structure it, is that it replaces other welfare, making it cheaper.
3.  Another part of the idea is that of all welfare types, a UBI encourages work the best by not penalizing people who do work.
4.  You rejigger the tax system to pay for it, duh.  Can't speak for Finland, but using calcs for the USA from before the Trump tax plan, a $6k/year UBI can be 'paid back' by eliminating the standard exemption, and the bottom 3 tax brackets in exchange for a 26% one.  Those who aren't having it taxed back are paid for by the elimination of the other systems.
5.  If I remember right, Finland's "experiment" was UBI + benefits, which missed the point.

Quote
"The initial move was met with skepticism from citizens who questioned whether an unemployed young person would be motivated to find a job if they were making a steady income, albeit small."

I'm fine with skepticism.  That's why you test using a pilot project first.  I object to running a pilot project then apparently not even bothering to check the results. 

The critical point here with the steady but small income is the idea that you don't lose all of it just because you found a minimum wage job.  I want to see welfare cliffs eliminated.  The goal is to encourage people to get out and work, period, even if it isn't "hard work".  What do you consider "hard work" anyways?  To me, that implies something that you constantly come home exhausted, with aches and pains with.  And that's not actually smart long term.  You want work that you want to go to in the morning(or whatever).

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Finland to end universal basic income program
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2018, 04:21:37 PM »
Quote
You want work that you want to go to in the morning(or whatever).

I've had jobs where I didn't dread getting up for. I've had jobs that I didnt hate going to.
In my meager 40+ years of working I do not recall a job that I looked forward to every day, or even some days.
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MechAg94

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Re: Finland to end universal basic income program
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2018, 04:50:24 PM »
Okay, I'll admit that I'm a supporter of a modest UBI.  Thoughts on the article:
1.  No analysis of the outcome of the trial was listed.  So we don't know if it actually had positive results or not.
2.  Part of the idea of an UBI, at least how I'd structure it, is that it replaces other welfare, making it cheaper.
3.  Another part of the idea is that of all welfare types, a UBI encourages work the best by not penalizing people who do work.
4.  You rejigger the tax system to pay for it, duh.  Can't speak for Finland, but using calcs for the USA from before the Trump tax plan, a $6k/year UBI can be 'paid back' by eliminating the standard exemption, and the bottom 3 tax brackets in exchange for a 26% one.  Those who aren't having it taxed back are paid for by the elimination of the other systems.
5.  If I remember right, Finland's "experiment" was UBI + benefits, which missed the point.

I'm fine with skepticism.  That's why you test using a pilot project first.  I object to running a pilot project then apparently not even bothering to check the results. 

The critical point here with the steady but small income is the idea that you don't lose all of it just because you found a minimum wage job.  I want to see welfare cliffs eliminated.  The goal is to encourage people to get out and work, period, even if it isn't "hard work".  What do you consider "hard work" anyways?  To me, that implies something that you constantly come home exhausted, with aches and pains with.  And that's not actually smart long term.  You want work that you want to go to in the morning(or whatever).
My problem is that most everything you mentioned is wishful thinking.  Nothing rational is likely to happen without a wholesale change in Congress.  You would have more success putting together your own trial program with private donations. 

I think it would be easier and simpler to just eliminate all the benefits, replace it with nothing, and encourage charity for those who need it.  If the govt is involved, it won't be simple or rational or efficient. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Firethorn

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Re: Finland to end universal basic income program
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2018, 05:11:08 PM »
My problem is that most everything you mentioned is wishful thinking.  Nothing rational is likely to happen without a wholesale change in Congress.  You would have more success putting together your own trial program with private donations. 

Note that I said I support it, I didn't say that it's coming or anything.  Which is why I mentioned analyzing the results of the trial.  Hell, I'd support a trial program here in the states, though it would be exceedingly difficult to do given how many different levels of government are involved in welfare.

Quote
I think it would be easier and simpler to just eliminate all the benefits, replace it with nothing, and encourage charity for those who need it.  If the govt is involved, it won't be simple or rational or efficient. 

If it's all done through charity, it won't be simple, rational, or efficient either.

HankB

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Re: Finland to end universal basic income program
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2018, 05:21:37 PM »
I've had jobs where I didn't dread getting up for. I've had jobs that I didnt hate going to.
In my meager 40+ years of working I do not recall a job that I looked forward to every day, or even some days.
I believe it was H. L. Menckin who wrote words to the effect that if your job didn't have aggravations, you didn't have a job - you had a hobby.
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Firethorn

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Re: Finland to end universal basic income program
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2018, 05:31:38 PM »
I believe it was H. L. Menckin who wrote words to the effect that if your job didn't have aggravations, you didn't have a job - you had a hobby.

And what do you call it when you have a hobby that earns you enough money to make a living on?  Paradise?


grampster

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Re: Finland to end universal basic income program
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2018, 09:41:23 AM »
Suomi don't do Communism very well.  Surprised the proponents of this program were not challenged to a knife fight.
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Re: Finland to end universal basic income program
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2018, 09:59:48 AM »
And what do you call it when you have a hobby that earns you enough money to make a living on?  Paradise?



I love my job!   =D

Firethorn

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Re: Finland to end universal basic income program
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2018, 04:05:41 PM »
I've had jobs where I didn't dread getting up for. I've had jobs that I didnt hate going to.
In my meager 40+ years of working I do not recall a job that I looked forward to every day, or even some days.

I won't require 'every' day, even a dedicated hobbyist will have *expletive deleted*it he doesn't like doing, but has to be done.

But that you've never had a job you looked forward to is sad.

Quote
Suomi don't do Communism very well.  Surprised the proponents of this program were not challenged to a knife fight.

It's not communism though.  It was being sold as a way to make welfare cheaper and more efficient.

Scout26

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Re: Finland to end universal basic income program
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2018, 04:29:45 PM »
Okay, I'll admit that I'm a supporter of a modest UBI.  Thoughts on the article:
1.  No analysis of the outcome of the trial was listed.  So we don't know if it actually had positive results or not.
2.  Part of the idea of an UBI, at least how I'd structure it, is that it replaces other welfare, making it cheaper.
3.  Another part of the idea is that of all welfare types, a UBI encourages work the best by not penalizing people who do work.
4.  You rejigger the tax system to pay for it, duh.  Can't speak for Finland, but using calcs for the USA from before the Trump tax plan, a $6k/year UBI can be 'paid back' by eliminating the standard exemption, and the bottom 3 tax brackets in exchange for a 26% one.  Those who aren't having it taxed back are paid for by the elimination of the other systems.
5.  If I remember right, Finland's "experiment" was UBI + benefits, which missed the point.

I'm fine with skepticism.  That's why you test using a pilot project first.  I object to running a pilot project then apparently not even bothering to check the results.  

The critical point here with the steady but small income is the idea that you don't lose all of it just because you found a minimum wage job.  I want to see welfare cliffs eliminated.  The goal is to encourage people to get out and work, period, even if it isn't "hard work".  What do you consider "hard work" anyways?  To me, that implies something that you constantly come home exhausted, with aches and pains with.  And that's not actually smart long term.  You want work that you want to go to in the morning(or whatever).

No, it will encourage poor people to live like illegals with 20 (unemployed) people jammed into one apartment working job that pay under the table.  Hunger is a pretty damn powerful motivator.

If you want to help poor people, get rid of minimum wage and other regulatory barriers to hiring.
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MechAg94

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Re: Finland to end universal basic income program
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2018, 10:22:59 PM »


If it's all done through charity, it won't be simple, rational, or efficient either.
If it ain't funded by my tax dollars, I don't give a damn.  I am not forced to contribute. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Firethorn

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Re: Finland to end universal basic income program
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2018, 11:49:37 PM »
No, it will encourage poor people to live like illegals with 20 (unemployed) people jammed into one apartment working job that pay under the table.  Hunger is a pretty damn powerful motivator.

If you want to help poor people, get rid of minimum wage and other regulatory barriers to hiring.

Well, I'd do the latter as well. The argument is that with the BIG you wouldn't need a "minimum wage" protecting you, any money you make improves your condition, and making more helps you more or less linearly until you're earning enough that you're paying more than the BIG in taxes.

And remember, illegals stuffed 20 into an apartment are generally all working.  At FOUR people on my BIG, they hit the poverty line.  And it's not that tough for 1 of them to go out and get a job of some sort to bring in niceties.  If they aren't family, the one working for nice things is likely to want to keep most of the nice to themselves, as they worked for it.  So others all get jobs, like I did as a teenager to support my car habit and more.  Once they get used to the idea of having to work for niceties, they will probably want to work for more money, for even nicer things.  Unlike the current situation, where they recognize that earning $1 more an hour will cost them $10k in benefits, so they sit on their asses at an almost minimum wage part time job.  Because they'd need to go from $10/hour@20 hours a week to $20/hour @ 40 hours a week to be truly ahead under the current system, all in one jump.  And that's tough unless your actual title is "college student" or such.

1.  If they're that desperate to "not work", I'm afraid that we know what they currently do - crime.  And imprisoning them is an order of magnitude more expensive than the BIG.  I may not like it, but I consider somebody living only on the BIG payment and avoiding jail because a conviction removes the payment for a time, and living on it is marginally better than without, to be superior.  Cheaper at least.
2.  Difficult, but encourage them to NOT have kids.  This would limit it to basically a sharp decline in hardcore moochers, because they'd stop having kids for hardcore mooching.  Some would still get pregnant and such, but they'd likely have ONE kid, not a dozen.  Because they aren't getting more money.

Quote from: MechAg94
If it ain't funded by my tax dollars, I don't give a damn.  I am not forced to contribute.

The problem, as I see it, is that it is a tragedy of the commons problem.  There isn't enough charity out there to cover the "needs", and I'm defining "needs" as "spend the money now, or spend gobs more later" fixes. 

Take schools, for example.  Sure, I might not like some of my taxes going towards them.  I'd be better off if I didn't have to pay.  However, if I don't pay, if everybody doesn't pay, 20 years down the road we'll all find that we've screwed ourselves because the next generation aren't capable of taking over the trained positions we need filled in order to keep having the services and products we enjoy like medical care.  That we'll have a bunch of criminals instead. 

So I consider school taxes(and other things) a cost of living in a civilized society(more or less, it's a sliding scale).  That doesn't mean that I don't want them to be so efficient with the money they take from me and others that the money screams.  That I don't recognize that that is impossible and must settle for just 'mostly efficient'.