Post by: MillCreek on July 29, 2008, 06:45:16 AM
Emotions still running high after Critical Mass confrontation
By Sara Jean Green
Seattle Times staff reporter
It's supposed to be a rolling protest, a way to show a community just how many of its citizens use two wheels instead of four.
But one local cycling advocate says participants in Seattle's monthly Critical Mass rides are doing more harm than good to the bicycling community and may even be pushing back efforts to smooth relations between motorists and cyclists.
"Critical Mass isn't doing Seattle any good it's a rolling party," said Chris Cameron, director of the bicycle-commute program for the 10,000-member Cascade Bicycle Club. Critical Mass rides are held monthly in cities around the world to draw attention to cyclists' road rights.
A melee erupted Friday night in Seattle's Capitol Hill neighborhood between a motorist and a group of Critical Mass cyclists. The driver and cyclists blame each other for escalating the incident into a violent clash that sent two men to local hospitals, two men to jail and a battered Subaru Impreza to an impound yard with $1,500 in damages.
Since then, the fight has gone online, with drivers and cyclists trading venomous insults and offering differing versions of events on local blogs and news sites.
Depending on who you talk to, Mark, a 23-year-old travel agent who lives on the Eastside, is either the aggressor or the victim at the center of Friday's altercation. But Tom Braun, a Seattle attorney who was run over by Mark, said the cyclists didn't provoke the fight that started when Mark floored his Subaru into a group of people.
Mark, who asked that his last name not be published because he is afraid for his safety, said Monday he found himself and a friend in an unfamiliar part of Seattle about 7 p.m. Friday as they headed to pick up another friend to go out to dinner.
Mark said Monday that he saw the mass of bicyclists and thought he'd accidentally driven into the Seafair Torchlight Parade route, so he pulled into a parking spot along Aloha Street to allow them to pass. But he said when he tried to pull back into traffic, he was blocked by cyclists who positioned themselves around his vehicle.
He admits he was angry and frustrated at being delayed but panic and fear soon took over as the cyclists started rocking his car, saying they were going to tip it over. Mark said he revved his engine but didn't think his car was in gear. After it stalled, he restarted the engine in order to get away but says he didn't realize he hit two cyclists.
"I completely panicked and I was scared," he said. "I just felt completely cornered and threatened."
But Braun, the injured attorney, said it was Mark whom he saw acting "aggressive and belligerent" when Braun, who had been riding at the back of the Critical Mass pack, crested a hill on Aloha Street.
The Subaru was parked perpendicular to the street, and was backed over a sidewalk and someone's front lawn, said Braun, 36. He stopped and stood straddling his bike to watch as the cyclists tried to calm the driver.
"He was screaming the whole time and yelled something about being late for a [dinner] reservation and he floors it, he literally floors it into a bunch of people and I took the brunt of it," he said.
A woman was also hit but jumped free, he said, and a man jumped onto the hood of the car to avoid being hit. But Braun and his bike got pulled beneath the vehicle.
"I was trying to hold onto the front and the bumper. I was pinned under the car, struggling for my life," he said. When Mark made a sharp left, a tire ran over Braun's right leg, but somehow, he managed to roll free of the car.
He didn't see what happened next.
But that's when, Mark said, he was mobbed by the cyclists, who shattered his windshield and rear window, dented the sides of his car, slashed his tires and tore off his driver's side mirror. As he stepped out of the Subaru, someone smashed something hard across the back of his head. He later learned it was likely a bike lock. Doctors stapled the wound closed.
"I didn't start the incident they provoked it," Mark said. "I freaked out and overreacted. I should've turned my car off and waited for them to leave."
Mark said he thinks at least some of the Critical Mass riders were looking for a fight: "They were obviously equipped and intending to get in confrontations with motorists." Still, he's sorry others were hurt: "I want to apologize to the people I hit."
Though Braun declined medical treatment at the scene, he later went to the emergency room. No bones were broken but doctors are monitoring him for possible internal bleeding, Braun said.
A Seattle police report echoes Mark's version of events, but Braun said the officer who took his statement seemed to have already made up his mind "that this mob of crazy cyclists attacked this driver out of the blue." Even after hearing Braun's story, the officer told him: "Well, this is the way it's getting written up," Braun said.
Two cyclists a 23-year-old and a 24-year-old were booked into the King County Jail on suspicion of malicious harassment, a felony charge connected to the damage done to the Subaru. Both have since been released after posting $1,000 bonds, jail records show.
Seattle police are looking for a third man who is suspected of assaulting Mark with a bike lock, said police spokesman Mark Jamieson.
Like Braun, others who witnessed Friday's altercation are still shaken and say Mark should also be charged.
"I wish I didn't see this whole thing on Friday ... because it's terrifying to see someone intentionally driving into a group of bikers, and zooming off with a person on top of the car," wrote Esra, a Critical Mass participant, in an e-mail to The Seattle Times on Monday.
"I think tire slashing was a brilliant idea, but I wish nobody hit the driver on the head," wrote Esra, who asked that his last name not be published because of a fear of backlash. "I still believe, and will fight for it that driver wasn't the 'victim' and he started this whole mess, and he should be charged for what he did."
Jamieson said police commanders will look at how Critical Mass events are conducted. The investigation into Friday's incident is ongoing, and Jamieson couldn't say Monday whether Mark is likely to face charges.
Regardless of what happens in court, Cameron of the Cascade Bicycle Club said everyone involved behaved badly and is responsible for escalating the situation.
"The motorist should face charges, absolutely he was in a 3,000-pound weapon that accelerated and hit somebody," Cameron said. "It was hooliganism on the cyclists' side, a mob mentality. They overreacted."
Still, he thinks tension between motorists and cyclists has actually decreased in recent years as drivers have become more accustomed to sharing the road with bicyclists.
Friday's clash "was an aberration," said Cameron. He said local Critical Mass rides haven't done anything to improve conditions for the riding public.
"It's kind of a merry pranksters event in Seattle versus the rolling protest I believe the original founders of the movement wanted to communicate," he said.
A Web site about Critical Mass events around the world critical-mass.info states that the monthly rides along urban streets are "intended to be a celebration, not an opportunity to cause trouble.
"Those who want to try to tie up traffic as much as possible and be confrontational with motorists are missing the point," the Web site states. "We can assert our right to the road without being rude about it. Focus on the ride, not on the cars that also happen to be on the road."
Post by: mtnbkr on July 29, 2008, 06:48:25 AM
One of the guys in my mtb club had a run in with CM riders: http://www.more-mtb.org/forum/showthread.php?p=117767#post117767
Chris
Post by: mtnbkr on July 29, 2008, 06:49:06 AM
Chris
Post by: HankB on July 29, 2008, 07:28:34 AM
If that's the case . . . tough luck for them when they find one.
Post by: MillCreek on July 29, 2008, 07:30:01 AM
You have to think of what would have happened in this situation if the Subaru driver was a member of the Pink Pistols and happened to be carrying when someone hit him on the head with a U-lock. I have several U-locks: they are large, heavy and I would not want to be hit in the head with one.
Post by: Balog on July 29, 2008, 07:35:56 AM
Post by: Ben on July 29, 2008, 05:21:21 PM
Post by: MicroBalrog on July 29, 2008, 05:48:57 PM
[though I don't have a problem with the G-8 protesters]
Post by: Ben on July 29, 2008, 06:13:15 PM
Quote
though I don't have a problem with the G-8 protesters
I'm referring to the ones in black scarves and hoods that smash windows and burn cars, which they did in Seattle a few years ago.
Post by: French G. on July 29, 2008, 06:22:47 PM
Post by: MicroBalrog on July 29, 2008, 06:32:23 PM
Quote
though I don't have a problem with the G-8 protesters
I'm referring to the ones in black scarves and hoods that smash windows and burn cars, which they did in Seattle a few years ago.
I remember reading in Newsweek about 'training camps' for civil disobedience in Canada where they teach hippies to chain themselves to stuff, confront riot police, etc.
There are two separate problems I identify:
1. I view modern society as horribly unjust and screwed up, and I believe that political globalism only makes it moreso. As such, I think it can only be fixed by a revolution (hopefully a nonviolent one).
2. I view people who protest against the powers that be as people whose hearts are in the right place, even if I don't share their views necessarily. I however understand that because of how the human mind works, most radicals (even those I agree with) tend to be sort-of-crazy bohemian folks. It has nothing to do with the content of their views. Finally, I understand that when you have a large protest with a lot of people who really don't like 'The Man', and cops who really don't like those people, sometimes crap happens.
Post by: BridgeRunner on July 29, 2008, 06:59:48 PM
Post by: Regolith on July 29, 2008, 07:22:02 PM
This thread is full of a whole slew of totally awesome reasons to never, never, ever, live in the Pacific Northwest.
Bah. So long as you don't live in Portland or Seattle, you're fine.
And this kind of BS happens in other regions, too.
Post by: mtnbkr on July 30, 2008, 01:19:51 AM
This thread is full of a whole slew of totally awesome reasons to never, never, ever, live in the Pacific Northwest.
There are Critical Mass rides in just about all major metro areas.
Chris
Post by: Bigjake on July 30, 2008, 03:27:31 AM
Post by: El Tejon on July 30, 2008, 03:30:03 AM
Whether it is a mob of dogs or a mob of men, same mentality. The group gives them the courage to misbehave. I don't know if Ecotopia is to be avoided, but groups certainly should be!
Post by: HankB on July 30, 2008, 03:47:03 AM
. . . most radicals (even those I agree with) tend to be sort-of-crazy bohemian folks.
In my observation, many (not all!!) of the activist radicals - the ones who riot, burn stuff, vandalize cars and buildings, stop traffic, etc. - are either unemployed or underemployed, still living off of Daddy's paycheck, an inheritance, or mooching off a spouse/boyfriend/girlfriend, and have plenty of time on their hands to cause mischief.
Post by: Jamisjockey on July 30, 2008, 04:27:23 AM
CM is nothing but a chance for hipsters to cause a scene and protest "something".
One of the guys in my mtb club had a run in with CM riders: http://www.more-mtb.org/forum/showthread.php?p=117767#post117767
Chris
One of the guys in my mtb club had a run in with CM riders: http://www.more-mtb.org/forum/showthread.php?p=117767#post117767
Chris
I participated, once, in SLC. Just a bunch of hippys looking for trouble. After they decided to not obey the rules of the road to "protest"....I told 'em to 'eff off and went home.
Post by: roo_ster on July 30, 2008, 05:31:25 AM
This thread is full of a whole slew of totally awesome reasons to never, never, ever, live in the Pacific Northwest.
There are Critical Mass rides in just about all major metro areas.
Chris
They had a critical mass group in Dallas, but they ended up road pizza (I suspect), as I have never heard a thing about them in 9 years.
Post by: MicroBalrog on July 30, 2008, 05:42:43 AM
. . . most radicals (even those I agree with) tend to be sort-of-crazy bohemian folks.
In my observation, many (not all!!) of the activist radicals - the ones who riot, burn stuff, vandalize cars and buildings, stop traffic, etc. - are either unemployed or underemployed, still living off of Daddy's paycheck, an inheritance, or mooching off a spouse/boyfriend/girlfriend, and have plenty of time on their hands to cause mischief.I see a lot of this claim cropping up elsewhere. Frankly, I don't care. I see nothing wrong with living off another person's chairty, or your inheritance. You inherit money, it's yours.
I don't see a moral duty to work the nine-to-five.
Post by: mtnbkr on July 30, 2008, 05:45:04 AM
I see a lot of this claim cropping up elsewhere. Frankly, I don't care. I see nothing wrong with living off another person's chairty, or your inheritance. You inherit money, it's yours.
I don't see a moral duty to work the nine-to-five.
I don't see a moral duty to work the nine-to-five.
I think the point was that people who have jobs don't have time nor the desire to break other people's stuff to make a statement.
Chris
Post by: MicroBalrog on July 30, 2008, 05:48:09 AM
I see a lot of this claim cropping up elsewhere. Frankly, I don't care. I see nothing wrong with living off another person's chairty, or your inheritance. You inherit money, it's yours.
I don't see a moral duty to work the nine-to-five.
I don't see a moral duty to work the nine-to-five.
I think the point was that people who have jobs don't have time nor the desire to break other people's stuff to make a statement.
Chris
I think you will find a lot of the people who complain about "dem dirty hippies who protest because they're unemployed and have the time to" also protest against the sort of peaceful civil disobedience you'll find at antiglobalist rallies.
The fact someone has a job is at best an excuse for not protesting. Not a justification.
Post by: Manedwolf on July 30, 2008, 06:09:50 AM
Quote
though I don't have a problem with the G-8 protesters
I'm referring to the ones in black scarves and hoods that smash windows and burn cars, which they did in Seattle a few years ago.
I am looking forward to their antics at the Dem convention.
Post by: yesitsloaded on July 30, 2008, 07:27:45 AM
Quote
Some 5,000 cyclists gathered in Union Square Park for Critical Mass, a monthly bike ride around Manhattan. New York police arrested 264 peoplemany of them were held for 24 hours. [includes rush transcript]
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More than half a million people took to the streets yesterday to protest the Republican agenda in New York. The march was largely peaceful, but the day was hardly without incident. After the six-hour long march, protesters did not just pack up their signs and go home. Various groups spread out across the city holding demonstrations and actions into the late hours of the night and many of them were met with violence at the hands of the NYPD.
In the Theatre District, a massive police presence greeted protesters who had launched a peaceful yet relentless verbal assault campaign on Republican delegates attending Broadway theaters as guests of The New York Times.
Police conducted indiscriminate arrests without warning, catching protestors, bystanders, legal observers and some members of the press using plastic fencing and netting material to fence them in.
Plainclothes officers riding unidentified mopeds, were deployed on the streets of Times Square where they rushed dangerously onto pedestrian sidewalks to block protesters" movements, and pen them in for arrest. Protesters chanting at delegates coming out of theaters were forced away by police who often followed them for several blocks. National guild lawyers said police ordered protesters to disperse, then arrested them before they were able to leave. While bearing down on one group, a senior police official ordered told officers If they stop. If they ask a question. They get cuffed.
During the parade earlier in the day, 15 people were arrested, including nine charged with felony assault on police officers. The arrests occurred after a paper-mache and wood dragon was set on fire outside Madison Square Garden. In a separate incident, one police officer sustained third-degree burns.
Some 200 arrests were made yesterday, most of them for disorderly conduct. Over 400 have been arrested since Friday when protests surrounding the Republican convention began.
The first major demonstration came on Friday night when some 5,000 cyclists gathered in Union Square Park for Critical Mass, a monthly bike ride around Manhattan.
New York police made over 264 arrests that night in several locations along the bike route. Cyclists said the bike ride was peaceful and the police acted unreasonably. Most of those arrested were charged with disorderly conduct and held for 24-hours at Pier 57, a three-story, block-long pier that has been converted to a holding pen for those protesting the convention.
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More than half a million people took to the streets yesterday to protest the Republican agenda in New York. The march was largely peaceful, but the day was hardly without incident. After the six-hour long march, protesters did not just pack up their signs and go home. Various groups spread out across the city holding demonstrations and actions into the late hours of the night and many of them were met with violence at the hands of the NYPD.
In the Theatre District, a massive police presence greeted protesters who had launched a peaceful yet relentless verbal assault campaign on Republican delegates attending Broadway theaters as guests of The New York Times.
Police conducted indiscriminate arrests without warning, catching protestors, bystanders, legal observers and some members of the press using plastic fencing and netting material to fence them in.
Plainclothes officers riding unidentified mopeds, were deployed on the streets of Times Square where they rushed dangerously onto pedestrian sidewalks to block protesters" movements, and pen them in for arrest. Protesters chanting at delegates coming out of theaters were forced away by police who often followed them for several blocks. National guild lawyers said police ordered protesters to disperse, then arrested them before they were able to leave. While bearing down on one group, a senior police official ordered told officers If they stop. If they ask a question. They get cuffed.
During the parade earlier in the day, 15 people were arrested, including nine charged with felony assault on police officers. The arrests occurred after a paper-mache and wood dragon was set on fire outside Madison Square Garden. In a separate incident, one police officer sustained third-degree burns.
Some 200 arrests were made yesterday, most of them for disorderly conduct. Over 400 have been arrested since Friday when protests surrounding the Republican convention began.
The first major demonstration came on Friday night when some 5,000 cyclists gathered in Union Square Park for Critical Mass, a monthly bike ride around Manhattan.
New York police made over 264 arrests that night in several locations along the bike route. Cyclists said the bike ride was peaceful and the police acted unreasonably. Most of those arrested were charged with disorderly conduct and held for 24-hours at Pier 57, a three-story, block-long pier that has been converted to a holding pen for those protesting the convention.
One officer is facing charges for this stunt: http://www.boingboing.net/2008/07/28/critical-mass-bicycl.html
Post by: mfree on July 30, 2008, 07:32:23 AM
Post by: yesitsloaded on July 30, 2008, 07:38:19 AM
Post by: Firethorn on July 30, 2008, 09:47:02 AM
I think the point was that people who have jobs don't have time nor the desire to break other people's stuff to make a statement.
If this was slashdot, I'd mod you insightful. Then again, this very thought is a major premise behind what my strategy for Iraq would be - get everyone possible employed. If they're tired out from working 40-60 hours a week, but getting enough to live(modestly) off of it, then they're much less likely to become an insurgent or terrorist.
Post by: Bigjake on July 30, 2008, 12:27:32 PM
The fact someone has a job is at best an excuse for not protesting. Not a justification.
Because protesting is such an effective tool for getting what you want?
I don't recall any massive protests last year when we forced the Amnesty Bill back down Congress and GW's throat. Just huge PROACTIVE public outcry.
When was the last time leftist "protests" succeeded in causing anything but trouble? Hint, not since the civil rights movement.
Showing your ass mob style ala "protesting" is worthless. Flooding your benevolent leaders phonelines, email and snailmail is effective.
Post by: MicroBalrog on July 30, 2008, 12:34:50 PM
By the way, protesting is not necessarily done mob-style.
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on July 30, 2008, 01:04:49 PM
Yeah, the civil rights movement. So unimportant, that.
By the way, protesting is not necessarily done mob-style.
Protesting doesn't have to be mob-style, but these days that seems to be their preferred method. It is, as Jake says, highly ineffective.
By the way, protesting is not necessarily done mob-style.
Post by: MicroBalrog on July 30, 2008, 01:11:38 PM
Yeah, the civil rights movement. So unimportant, that.
By the way, protesting is not necessarily done mob-style.
Protesting doesn't have to be mod-style, but these days that seems to be their preferred method. It is, as Jake says, highly ineffective.By the way, protesting is not necessarily done mob-style.
I've participated in a 'mob-style' protest myself, and it worked (though that's not the point).
A variety of tactics exist, and are widely used to attract attention to issues. Think of the open-carry marches that were used by the CCL movement in some states where open carry was legal, but concealed wasn't.
Hunger strikes (if you're brave and healthy), one-man protests (where protesters take turns standing with a placard in shifts, so nobody can really pin you on not having enough people - it's supposed to only have one guy at any given time), and outright civil disobedience (peaceful, of course), are some tactics I can teach you about.
Post by: K Frame on July 30, 2008, 01:27:07 PM
Lots of annoying hippies on bicycles.
Sounds like a target-rich environment to me.
Post by: Tallpine on July 30, 2008, 01:37:37 PM
Post by: K Frame on July 30, 2008, 01:40:44 PM
Post by: Bigjake on July 30, 2008, 02:32:15 PM
Post by: MillCreek on July 31, 2008, 05:11:42 AM
Post by: K Frame on July 31, 2008, 05:13:58 AM
They just don't UNDERSTAND!
IT'S FOR THE PLANET! IT'S FOR MOTHER EARTH!
Post by: mtnbkr on July 31, 2008, 05:19:14 AM
Chris
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on July 31, 2008, 06:46:50 AM
At least originally, CM wasn't about the environment, it was about creating awareness and visibility for cyclists in urban areas. Our version of the motorcyclists' campaign to be seen while on the road. Unfortunately, it became co-opted by the radical fringe.
Chris
Yeah, Critical Mass as originally conceived was a good idea. Unfortunately, like many good ideas, it got perverted by fringe wackos.
Chris
Post by: K Frame on July 31, 2008, 06:48:17 AM
IT'S
FOR
MOTHER
EARTH!!!
Post by: mtnbkr on July 31, 2008, 06:51:07 AM
IT
IS
NOT
Post by: HankB on July 31, 2008, 07:38:44 AM
Hunger strikes (if you're brave and healthy)
Would anyone really CARE if someone they oppose decided to harm themselves? I wouldn't. In fact, I'd encourage people like Chuck Schumer, Barack Hussein Obama, Michael Moore, those two batty female senators from California, etc., to go on a hunger strike. and outright civil disobedience (peaceful, of course), are some tactics I can teach you about.
We did this on a number of occasions in high school - "nonviolent noncompliance" we called it - when the school's teachers, administrators, or athletic coaches tried to do things that went well beyond their authority.
Post by: K Frame on July 31, 2008, 08:27:08 AM
No
IT
IS
NOT
IT
IS
NOT
YOU CAR CENTRIST NAZI!
Post by: Sawdust on July 31, 2008, 08:54:23 AM
Why do you guys hate America?
Sawdust
Post by: Regolith on July 31, 2008, 09:10:07 AM
Oh-oh, Godwin invoked.
Why do you guys hate America?
Sawdust
Why do you guys hate America?
Sawdust
We don't hate America, just it's traditions, legal foundation, government, and Wal Mart. [/granola muncher]
Post by: gunsmith on July 31, 2008, 11:11:10 PM
I used to be an anarchist,( I still am except now I vote conservative and have found God.)
I helped organize the first critical mass in San Francisco in the early 1990's.
One of my goals was to illustrate how bad traffic would be if every bike rider followed every law.
In the early 90's it was simply a ride home together all at the same time.
No more of a protest then rush hour, the difference was 500 bikers, stopping for a red light going up hill
and stopping for every stop sign meant that that the car behind us gets to go as fast as a bike that has lost momentum.
The chief complaint against us bike messengers had been that we ignored stop signs and red lights.
The complainers failed to understand that the biker that stops on a hill still has to stay on the road, and went from going 10-15mph to 2-5mph, you're stuck behind a much slower vehicle.
I really understand both sides of the story, as a cyclist I routinely saw police always taking the side of the motorist, even though they used a 3 ton vehicle as a weapon simply because they were irked at the cyclist in front of them pedaling as fast as they could while obeying laws meant for vehicles that can go 25 mph without the operator getting exhausted.
Bikes and cars are not meant to share the same road, if this was utopia we could all get along I guess.
As a cab driver I definetly got to see the other side of the coin, a lot of the current crop of cm'ers are rude for rudness sake.
I extend every courtesy possible and they still give me the finger.
Most of the bike messengers in San Francisco stopped attending, the problem is now it is chic to have the messenger look.
scruffy, bike bag and bike...so no one can tell a professional from a weekend warrior.
Most people do not realize that the car they drive has enormus potential as a weapon, they have no problem with menacing and threatening bikers.
Here on armed polite know better but we are in the slim minority.
Modern "anarchist" are now simply kids with issues, taking out their dysfunctional family issues out on society because
they have no other outlet and know knowledge of history, psychology, addiction or due process.
I was serious when I was a young punk rock anarchist, I researched Haymarket, knew about the labor struggles of the late 19th century, read Kropotkin and Emma G, Engles etc.
Today being an anarchist means ripped dirty jeans and pierced genetalia.
Todays critical mass participant doesn't understand getting home to your home 30 miles away to let the baby sitter go home
and the modern motorist doesn't know how difficult it is to be a second class citizen simply because you can't afford a car and you're riding a bike.
Post by: Balog on August 01, 2008, 06:08:51 AM
Post by: Regolith on August 01, 2008, 06:31:48 AM
Most people do not realize that the car they drive has enormus potential as a weapon, they have no problem with menacing and threatening bikers.
Here on armed polite know better but we are in the slim minority.
Here on armed polite know better but we are in the slim minority.
See, this is something that has been annoying me every time these threads come up. Some biker decides to generalize and say almost every person who drives a car is a maniac who enjoys menacing bikers just because.
It simply ain't true.
First, I don't do it, and neither does anyone else I know. Now, the law of averages being what it is, as well as pure statistical chance would dictate that if MOST people who drove a car liked to menace bikers, then I'd at least know one person who does. I don't. Every person I know gives bikers a wide berth. The law of statistics would also dictate that I'd have seen at least one incident of a person menacing a biker. I haven't. Except on YouTube, and that stupid prick got what was coming to him.
Being a driver myself, this annoys the living crap out of me because not only are you stereotyping to a very wide degree, but you are (purposely or not) including me within that stereotype. Unacceptable.
Not only that, but you're also saying that everyone who comes close to (or does) cause an accident with a biker was doing it on purpose. No doubt there are a few who do, but it is far more likely that the vast majority were caused by inattention either by the biker or the driver, rather than malice.
So yeah, I'd kindly ask that this type of stereotyping be dropped, because it isn't accurate, and it isn't conducive to the conversation. It'd be the equivalent of a car driver saying to you that EVERY biker was like the guys in the original article.
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on August 01, 2008, 07:58:01 AM
Most people do not realize that the car they drive has enormus potential as a weapon, they have no problem with menacing and threatening bikers.
Here on armed polite know better but we are in the slim minority.
Here on armed polite know better but we are in the slim minority.
See, this is something that has been annoying me every time these threads come up. Some biker decides to generalize and say almost every person who drives a car is a maniac who enjoys menacing bikers just because.
It simply ain't true.
First, I don't do it, and neither does anyone else I know. Now, the law of averages being what it is, as well as pure statistical chance would dictate that if MOST people who drove a car liked to menace bikers, then I'd at least know one person who does. I don't. Every person I know gives bikers a wide berth. The law of statistics would also dictate that I'd have seen at least one incident of a person menacing a biker. I haven't. Except on YouTube, and that stupid prick got what was coming to him.
Being a driver myself, this annoys the living crap out of me because not only are you stereotyping to a very wide degree, but you are (purposely or not) including me within that stereotype. Unacceptable.
Not only that, but you're also saying that everyone who comes close to (or does) cause an accident with a biker was doing it on purpose. No doubt there are a few who do, but it is far more likely that the vast majority were caused by inattention either by the biker or the driver, rather than malice.
So yeah, I'd kindly ask that this type of stereotyping be dropped, because it isn't accurate, and it isn't conducive to the conversation. It'd be the equivalent of a car driver saying to you that EVERY biker was like the guys in the original article.
He said that most drivers behave that way. He's absolutely correct. As a cyclist, I can vouch for the fact that far, far too many drives don't fully respect the dangers posed by their 2 ton steel killing machines.
Post by: HankB on August 01, 2008, 08:26:04 AM
. . . He said that most drivers behave that way. He's absolutely correct. As a cyclist, I can vouch for the fact that far, far too many drives don't fully respect the dangers posed by their 2 ton steel killing machines.
And as a motorist, I can vouch for the fact that far too many cyclists don't fully realize that bicycles ought not be ridden on some roads, particularly those with heavy/high speed traffic.Now, I don't want to run over a biker, clip one with a rear-view mirror, or force him off the road - I try to give them plenty of space.
Even if they are idiots for riding on a highway.
Even if they obstruct traffic because they can't keep up.
Even if they are so full of smug self-rightousness that they enjoy obstructing traffic.
I figure that eventually, their karma will catch up to them. And when they try to occupy the same patch of road at the same time as a soccer mommie driving a Suburban with one hand while holding a cell phone to her other ear, they just may get to win that Darwin award they're trying so hard to get after all.
It happens pretty often around the Austin, TX area . . . and from talking to a couple of local cops, in the majority of the cases, it seems to be the biker's own, well, foolishness that contributed to the collision.
Summing up, even if some bikers are idiots, I don't want to be the one that helps them meet their maker.
But I won't shed a tear when it happens.
Post by: K Frame on August 01, 2008, 08:40:34 AM
And, as a motorist in DC metro, I can vouch for the fact that many, if not most, bicyclists are idiots who somehow have developed enhanced senses of invincibility while riding their two-wheeled organ donormobiles amongst the 2-ton metal machines of death.
In the last 5 years I can't even begin to tell you how many totally moronic moves I've seen bicyclists. Running red lights, swerving in and out of cars as if they're a motorcycle, losing ALL concept of where they are and ramming a car that is stopped in traffic... I've seen some doozies.
My absolute favorite happened a couple of years ago.
Cars in the right-hand turn lane and getting the arrow to turn right. I was 4 cars back and had a perfect view of the entire situation.
Bicyclist FLYING up the outside of the right hand turn lane but looking to the LEFT to see if any cars are coming across because he's going straight through the intersection.
He rammed right into the side of the car that was LEGALLY turning right.
Why he wasn't seriously injured is completely beyond me, but he wasn't. Bloody and road rashed, but not dead or crippled. But he was unbelievably furious and indignant. His tune changed some when the witnesses, me included, told the cop exactly what we saw. Result was the bicyclist getting a series of citations, the driver nothing.
I have no problem in sharing the road with bicyclists. I'm more than happy to do so. But they need to remember -- the primary use of the road is for powered traffic.
Post by: Sawdust on August 01, 2008, 09:01:03 AM
Quote
Uh-oh...better get yer flame suit on.
Shatstorm incoming from the cyclists in 3, 2, 1...
Sawdust
Post by: K Frame on August 01, 2008, 09:15:27 AM
If streets and roadways weren't primarily intended for the use of powered vehicles, they wouldn't be dimensioned so as to accommodate powered vehicles, they wouldn't be built to withstand the pounding of powered vehicles, and the primary source of revenue for their maintenance and construction wouldn't come from taxes on the gasoline used to feed powered vehicles.
The massive network of paved roads in the United States exists because of the rise of the automobile, not because the legions of bicyclists were getting their ankles dirty on their daily commute.
Post by: Regolith on August 01, 2008, 09:56:16 AM
Most people do not realize that the car they drive has enormus potential as a weapon, they have no problem with menacing and threatening bikers.
Here on armed polite know better but we are in the slim minority.
Here on armed polite know better but we are in the slim minority.
See, this is something that has been annoying me every time these threads come up. Some biker decides to generalize and say almost every person who drives a car is a maniac who enjoys menacing bikers just because.
It simply ain't true.
First, I don't do it, and neither does anyone else I know. Now, the law of averages being what it is, as well as pure statistical chance would dictate that if MOST people who drove a car liked to menace bikers, then I'd at least know one person who does. I don't. Every person I know gives bikers a wide berth. The law of statistics would also dictate that I'd have seen at least one incident of a person menacing a biker. I haven't. Except on YouTube, and that stupid prick got what was coming to him.
Being a driver myself, this annoys the living crap out of me because not only are you stereotyping to a very wide degree, but you are (purposely or not) including me within that stereotype. Unacceptable.
Not only that, but you're also saying that everyone who comes close to (or does) cause an accident with a biker was doing it on purpose. No doubt there are a few who do, but it is far more likely that the vast majority were caused by inattention either by the biker or the driver, rather than malice.
So yeah, I'd kindly ask that this type of stereotyping be dropped, because it isn't accurate, and it isn't conducive to the conversation. It'd be the equivalent of a car driver saying to you that EVERY biker was like the guys in the original article.
He said that most drivers behave that way. He's absolutely correct. As a cyclist, I can vouch for the fact that far, far too many drives don't fully respect the dangers posed by their 2 ton steel killing machines.
Horse puckey. If most motorists acted that way, the biker would be extinct. Again, you're generalizing to suit your particular prejudices.
And yes, its just as offensive to me as if he had said ALL motorists, just as it would be offensive if you said MOST blacks are criminals, or MOST jews are greedy bastards involved in worldwide conspiracies, or MOST gunnies are redneck hicks who who chew tobacco and brew moonshine and are a danger to society. Generalization is not only a logical fallacy, it's sloppy thinking.
Post by: K Frame on August 01, 2008, 09:58:31 AM
I hesitate to do this, but quoted for an amazing amount of truth.
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on August 01, 2008, 10:40:15 AM
Most motorcyclists I've spoken to have had run-ins with incompetent, self-centered motorists, too. Likewise for most average car and truck drivers. There is nothing special or unique about bicyclists in this regard.
Many drivers simply do not comprehend that the world doesn't revolve around them, that their cars and trucks aren't the only vehicles on public roads. They behave as thought the public roads are their own personal "get out of my way or I'll injure you and then blame it on you" playgrounds. They do not grok that it is their responsibility to operate their vehicles in a manner safe for all other users of the roads.
Gunsmith is right. Operating a motor vehicle is a serious responsibility which most drivers don't fully respect. You may not like that fact, but it's true nonetheless.
Post by: Sergeant Bob on August 01, 2008, 10:46:37 AM
"If most motorists acted that way, the biker would be extinct."
I hesitate to do this, but quoted for an amazing amount of truth.
I hesitate to do this, but quoted for an amazing amount of truth.
+1!!!!!
Post by: BridgeRunner on August 01, 2008, 10:58:10 AM
Far more cyclists have been hit by stupid motorists than you'd imagine. I've been hit. Most of the cyclists I know have either been hit or been run off the road by reckless drivers. So don't pretend that it's rare or uncommon. It isn't. And don't pretend that whenever it happens, it's automatically the cyclists fault for being on a public road. It isn't.
By way of analogy:
Far more women have been abused by men than you imagine. Most of the women I know have either been raped or sexually abused by brutal men. So don't pretend that it's rare or uncommon. It isn't.
Therefore, men are brutal, vicious uncaring jerks?
Sorry, does not compute. Every driver I know has also had encounters with terribly rude, reckless, dangerous drivers. I imagine the average serious cyclist shares the road with somewhere between dozens and hundreds of cars on daily to weekly basis. You're gonna run into one or two asshats per every hundred to every thousand or so, depending on demographics and geography. This is hardly an indictment of drivers. Of cyclists.
It pretty much a description of life.
Post by: Tallpine on August 01, 2008, 11:06:04 AM
I used to ride a bicycle a lot back in Colorado. I stayed on the bike trails where they were available, on the less travelled roads when possible, and way the heck over on busy roads. I somehow fail to understand how the threat of a few tiny pebbles off on the shoulder of the hiway compare with the threat of fast moving vehicles weighing anywhere between 2 and 40 tons ?
And for murdercyclists: don't give me that "cage drivers don't watch" BS. Maybe you ought not to be weaving through traffic and passing on the right. I almost killed a guy out on the interstate many years ago. I had passed another car, and was in the process of changing lanes back to the right when I spotted about 2" of the top of a helmet in my right window.
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on August 01, 2008, 11:43:00 AM
Far more cyclists have been hit by stupid motorists than you'd imagine. I've been hit. Most of the cyclists I know have either been hit or been run off the road by reckless drivers. So don't pretend that it's rare or uncommon. It isn't. And don't pretend that whenever it happens, it's automatically the cyclists fault for being on a public road. It isn't.
By way of analogy:
Far more women have been abused by men than you imagine. Most of the women I know have either been raped or sexually abused by brutal men. So don't pretend that it's rare or uncommon. It isn't.
Therefore, men are brutal, vicious uncaring jerks?
Sorry, does not compute. Every driver I know has also had encounters with terribly rude, reckless, dangerous drivers. I imagine the average serious cyclist shares the road with somewhere between dozens and hundreds of cars on daily to weekly basis. You're gonna run into one or two asshats per every hundred to every thousand or so, depending on demographics and geography. This is hardly an indictment of drivers. Of cyclists.
It pretty much a description of life.
You're right, though. It's a proportional thing. Back when I first started cycling, I did my best to hug the right hand edge of the pavement, staying as far out of the lane of traffic as I could. My thinking was that I should give the motorists as wide a berth as possible. Back then, fully 3 out of 4 drivers passed me dangerously. That, by any definition, satisfies the statement "most drivers don't fully respect the danger of their vehicles".
I've since learned to ride more assertively. If I'm clearly inside the lane of traffic, most motorists realize that they can't squeeze past me without changing lanes. Now it's only 1 in 4 who drive dangerously. Most still fail to respect the danger they pose, and are driving safer only because that's the only realistic choice I've left them short of rear-ending me.
Gunsmith is right. Most drivers don't fully respect the killing potential inherent in their vehicles. If you deign to use the public roads on a bicycle, you will surely experience the same thing. Most drivers treat the roads as their own personal playgrounds, without regard for all of the other users of the road.
Post by: K Frame on August 01, 2008, 12:12:51 PM
Wow.
Where did anyone:
1. Claim that it's a rare or uncommon occurrence?
2. Claim that it's automatically the cyclist's fault?
No one has claimed that, so stop purling and whining and acting as if someone has.
There's blame that goes to both sides.
Not all motorists are bloodthirsty bastards whose only goal of the day is to see how many pansy ecoweenie bicyclists they can grind into a thin red slurry beneath the wheels of their souped up 900 horse power 12-cylinder deathmobile, just as not all cyclists are long-haired hippy ecoweenies whose only goal is to travel in a pack, box in a car, and film themselves slashing its tires.
If I were truly like that I could probably add 5 bicycle stickers to my car door every day.
Part of the reason as to why there are so many incidents of cyclists being hit is very likely one of relative volume. Every day on my commute about town I see maybe 5 bicyclists who are traveling in the lanes. Conversely, every day I see better than one THOUSAND autos and trucks. Like it or not, cars and trucks outnumber bikes by a hefty margin, and it's that kind of situation, one where a driver might not have a lot of experience with a cyclist being on the road in their proximity (or conversely a bicyclist who's either new to riding in traffic or who has gotten complacent) that leads to problems.
Post by: mtnbkr on August 01, 2008, 12:32:34 PM
Or is it all cyclists are idiots?
I can't remember.
Since this thread isn't helping me determine which, I'm going to close it.
Chris