Author Topic: Demons or Psychotherapy?  (Read 37767 times)

Werewolf

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Demons or Psychotherapy?
« on: February 11, 2008, 06:13:47 AM »
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Exorcism -- the church rite of expelling evil spirits from tortured souls -- is making a comeback in Catholic regions of Europe. Last July, more than 300 practitioners gathered in the Polish city of Czestochowa for the fourth International Congress of Exorcists.

About 70 priests serve as trained exorcists in Poland, about double the number of five years ago. An estimated 300 exorcists are active in Italy. Foremost among them: the Rev. Gabriele Amorth, 82, who performs exorcisms daily in Rome and is dean of Europe's corps of demon-battling priests.

Can it get any whackier than this in Europe? What's with these people?

OR!!!

Maybe DEMONS are REAL! <evil laugh>

Full Article Here
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The Viking

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2008, 06:19:43 AM »
Quote
Exorcism -- the church rite of expelling evil spirits from tortured souls -- is making a comeback in Catholic regions of Europe. Last July, more than 300 practitioners gathered in the Polish city of Czestochowa for the fourth International Congress of Exorcists.

About 70 priests serve as trained exorcists in Poland, about double the number of five years ago. An estimated 300 exorcists are active in Italy. Foremost among them: the Rev. Gabriele Amorth, 82, who performs exorcisms daily in Rome and is dean of Europe's corps of demon-battling priests.

Can it get any whackier than this in Europe? What's with these people?

OR!!!

Maybe DEMONS are REAL! <evil laugh>

Full Article Here
I remember seeing a clip from a church in the US of A where the priest (and lay persons as well) performed excorcisms... there sure was a lot of screaming and shouting of "Jesus" "God" "banish" etc.

Sergeant Bob

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2008, 06:23:47 AM »
I think they are probably just in it for the free eats. Mmmmmm! Pea Soup! shocked grin
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
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MrRezister

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2008, 06:41:13 AM »

Can it get any whackier than this in Europe? What's with these people?

OR!!!

Maybe DEMONS are REAL! <evil laugh>

Full Article Here

Europeans are the smart ones, remember?  We should probably just go ahead and follow their lead.  There are several good Catholic priests who seem to need an exorcism, and let's not forget that Phelps guy...
He never brought you an unbalanced budget, which is a perennial joke. He never voted himself a wage increase and, to this day, gives back part of his salary every year. He has always voted to preserve the Constitution, cut government spending, lower healthcare costs, end the war on drugs, secure our borders with immigration reform and protect our civil liberties.

Iain

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2008, 06:49:00 AM »
I love these 'look at them funny Europeans' threads.

They are almost as good as the equally myopic 'stupid yanks' threads I can find elsewhere.
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BrokenPaw

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2008, 06:51:23 AM »
Some years ago, I began (at the recommendation of a friend who -- at the time -- seemed like he had his head screwed on straight) attending a church that was very into the Baptism of the Spirit.  Lots and lots of speaking in tongues, falling down on the floor and writhing, and so on.  One of the things taught in that church was that any problem you had in your life was caused by a demon that was riding inside of you.  Part of Sunday service was for people "blessed with the gift of Exorcism" (criterion for being deemed to have that blessing:  You said you did) laying hands on people who had a particular demon infesting them, pulling the demon out, and then (here's the really great part) letting it go and moving on to another person.

We can have debates and debates on whether or not there is such a thing as a demon, and whether or not Sally Soccermom can pull one out of someone, but I'd like to think that we can all agree that if you do have a demon in your hands, probably you ought to deposit it in a properly-marked receptacle, not just leave the thing lying around where anyone can step in it.

Obligatory Disclaimer lest I get flamed.  Again.  Yes, this is an accurate description of a church that I attended, briefly.  Yes, the church had the word "Christian" in its name.  No, I am not casting aspersions at Christians in general.  After all, I was one at the time.  Yes, I am casting aspersions at the people who simultaneously believe that 1) a demon is dangerous enough to harm people, so you must pull it out, and 2) once it's pulled out it's harmless enough to release and ignore.

-BP
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seeker_two

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2008, 06:53:50 AM »
Can we start at the GOP convention?.....
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The Viking

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2008, 06:59:38 AM »

Can it get any whackier than this in Europe? What's with these people?

OR!!!

Maybe DEMONS are REAL! <evil laugh>

Full Article Here

and let's not forget that Phelps guy...
Would excorcism mean "beat the everliving crap out of him and his crew" in this particular case?

MrRezister

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2008, 07:10:08 AM »

and let's not forget that Phelps guy...
Would excorcism mean "beat the everliving crap out of him and his crew" in this particular case?

Ahh, I see you have The Gift....
He never brought you an unbalanced budget, which is a perennial joke. He never voted himself a wage increase and, to this day, gives back part of his salary every year. He has always voted to preserve the Constitution, cut government spending, lower healthcare costs, end the war on drugs, secure our borders with immigration reform and protect our civil liberties.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2008, 07:10:53 AM »
I remember seeing a clip from a church in the US of A where the priest (and lay persons as well) performed excorcisms... there sure was a lot of screaming and shouting of "Jesus" "God" "banish" etc. 


Been there, done that.*   sad   It's a doctrine called Deliverance.  Not like the movie, but as in deliverance from evil spirits.  Have an on-going temptation in your life?  You try to stop engaging in this particular sin, but can't?  Well, churches like those will help you to understand that it's some demon that's controlling you, and from which you can be delivered.

The upside is, you escape blame for your actions. 

Downside is, it isn't a Biblical doctrine, if that matters to you.  Demons exist, yes.  The Bible does cite cases of demon possession.  However, that doesn't mean that every problem in a person's life is a result of demonic activity. 


*In my youth, I traveled in much the same Charismatic circles which BrokenPaw experienced. 
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2008, 07:12:38 AM »
Can we start at the GOP convention?.....


 grin
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Werewolf

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2008, 07:19:25 AM »
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Demons exist, yes.
Then where're their zombie minions - huh? I ask you: where are they? Don't demons have zombie minions???

I want some zombie minions, damn it. Else what good are all these different guns I've got.

We need zombie minions to put to rest the question of the ages: what caliber for zombies?
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2008, 08:04:13 AM »
Interestingly, some liturgical churches believe that baptism involves a form of exorcism.  I believe it is the carnal nature that is being exorcised, though, not a demon.  I can't find any links on it, though.  Maybe some Lutherans or Catholics could fill us in. 
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Tecumseh

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2008, 08:08:59 AM »
If demons exist, then so do leprechauns, dragons, and a myriad of other mythical creatures.  Is voodoo also real?  What about Sangria?

Iain

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2008, 08:09:43 AM »
Until you've heard previously apparently rational adults roaring like lions and overcome with fits of sinister laughter you've not experienced everything.

Charismatic churches in the Toronto-era were just strange. Call me a filthy atheist, but group hysteria coupled with peer pressure seems the best explanation of most that I saw.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2008, 08:12:24 AM »
The Toronto Vineyard?  I was there, too.   laugh 


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Iain

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2008, 08:27:43 AM »
I've considered a 'Toronto Survivors Club'. I just looked on facebook to see if anyone had already created a survivors club and found their facebook group. According to wikipedia the Association of Vineyard Churches asked them to end their association in 1995, they are now called the Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship.

I'd be interested to hear your experiences, I think you are a little older than me.
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James Fitzer

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2008, 08:30:29 AM »
If demons exist, then so do leprechauns, dragons, and a myriad of other mythical creatures.  Is voodoo also real?  What about Sangria?

Yet another non sequitur courtesy of tecumseh.  rolleyes

BrokenPaw

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2008, 08:36:57 AM »
The Toronto Vineyard?  I was there, too.   laugh

Ding!  That's exactly the church I was describing.  Vineyard Christian Fellowship, in Woodbridge, VA.

-BP
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Iain

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2008, 08:39:55 AM »
The Vineyard churches are what, a group, loose affiliation, something like that.

The 'Toronto Blessing' started in the Toronto Vineyard (as it was then). Swept through a lot of charismatic churches - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_blessing

Quote
The most common described behaviours include hysterical laughter (or “holy laughter”), physical spasms or jerks, falling to the floor under the Holy Spirit's power (aka “slain in the Spirit”) and speaking in tongues. Other less common behaviours include manifestations that resembled roaring like lions and barking like dogs.
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Tecumseh

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2008, 08:42:26 AM »
If demons exist, then so do leprechauns, dragons, and a myriad of other mythical creatures.  Is voodoo also real?  What about Sangria?

Yet another non sequitur courtesy of tecumseh.  rolleyes
  Can you expand on this? 

If one religions mythical creatures can exist, is it unfeasible that other mythical creatures exist?  Why doesnt that logic follow.  Let me explain it to you.

I am not a Christian but an agnostic at best.  Now I am going to assume you are a Christian.  You don't believe in Hinduism, do you?  You are an atheist when it comes to Hinduism if you will.  Are you following this, it is not to complicated.  Now I am an atheist when it comes to Christianity, so why is it so hard for you to not be able to understand that I am an atheist to your religion, when you can so easily be an atheist to other religions? 

Racehorse

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2008, 08:56:40 AM »
If demons exist, then so do leprechauns, dragons, and a myriad of other mythical creatures.  Is voodoo also real?  What about Sangria?

Of course Sangria exists. I hear it's delicious!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sangria





Perd Hapley

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2008, 09:00:26 AM »
I'd be interested to hear your experiences, I think you are a little older than me. 


I'm thirty-one.  I think BrokenPaw is a little older.  Tallpine may be another survivor of that sort of movement, I think.

I attended charismatic churches for most of my teen-age years, my visit to Toronto being about 94 or 95, with some church friends and fellow UMR students.  I only attended a Vineyard church for the three semesters that I attended U of Missouri - Rolla.  But the other churches were similar.  Being "slain in the spirit" was a common experience in those churches, and was not an innovation of the "Toronto Blessing."  But the "holy laughter" seems to have come from there, and spread to the church my family attended at the time.  Speaking in tongues was always popular there, probably still is.  And prophecy and such.  I did "speak in tongues" and get "slain in the spirit," although that was more the power of suggestion than a genuine religious experience. 

My sister was a part of these things, and now feels very much fooled and victimized by it.  After ten years or so, she is finally starting to go to church with my parents.  They moved on to a more orthodox church, without any of the Charismatic trappings. 

I was fooled by these things, too, of course, and my parents' new church was also helpful in my "recovery" if such dramatic language is really appropriate.  I certainly believe in gifts of the spirit, but I no longer expect them to be normative parts of everyday Christian experience.  I eventually also realized that chasing such phenomena, trying to catch the Galloping Ghost of the Holy Spirit, is a big distraction as well.  Too many people hope for fulfillment in such flashy displays (which are usually not genuine), and miss out on the real stuff of the Christian experience.  That is, family life, helping others, quiet, meditative Bible-reading and prayer.  In full disclosure, I'm not doing so good on those things, lately, myself. 
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Paddy

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2008, 09:05:30 AM »
Hey if you can't see it or hear it, it ain't there, is it?

James Fitzer

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2008, 09:09:24 AM »
If demons exist, then so do leprechauns, dragons, and a myriad of other mythical creatures.  Is voodoo also real?  What about Sangria?

Yet another non sequitur courtesy of tecumseh.  rolleyes
  Can you expand on this? 

If one religions mythical creatures can exist, is it unfeasible that other mythical creatures exist?  Why doesnt that logic follow.  Let me explain it to you.

I am not a Christian but an agnostic at best.  Now I am going to assume you are a Christian.  You don't believe in Hinduism, do you?  You are an atheist when it comes to Hinduism if you will.  Are you following this, it is not to complicated.  Now I am an atheist when it comes to Christianity, so why is it so hard for you to not be able to understand that I am an atheist to your religion, when you can so easily be an atheist to other religions? 

Can you provide references proving that I am a Christian? How about a link?

Look man... I'm not here to debate with you. I just find it laughable how you jump into threads to stir up trouble. Your pseudo-intellectual verbal vomitus isn't impressive, and I'm getting tired of reading somewhat interesting threads only to have a complete "WTF" moment when I reach your post.