Author Topic: Demons or Psychotherapy?  (Read 37773 times)

Strings

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #50 on: February 11, 2008, 08:32:30 PM »
First off, I'd like to address Tecumseh's tangent...

 There's actually some archeological evidence for "little people" (paleolithic tools), and zombies (as originally described) are a known quantity (made via drugs, if my knowledge of such things isn't messed up).

 There's also archeological evidence of "demons" or "folks with demonic visages" (physical remains). So, I'd say the possibility is open for both of those... Wink

 And Riley, I just ADORE how you know so much about the people that post here. You must be a genius!

wooderson

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #51 on: February 11, 2008, 08:49:50 PM »
If leprechauns aren't real, then they're not real.  Again, what connection do demons have to leprechauns?  We don't assume that unicorns exist, just because other animals do.  Nor does my belief in turtles obligate me to disprove the existence of unicorns.
We don't assume that unicorns exist because a) they are figures of traditional mythology and b) we have no evidence of their physical existence. (The latter being the key.) This makes them, on both counts, akin to demons and leprechauns: creatures which have no detectable physical presence.

And so from the perspective of those who rely on our shared physical realm as reality - for a believer in leprechauns to deride those who believe in unicorns and faeries is, if not hypocrisy, then a serious inconsistency.
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Iain

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #52 on: February 11, 2008, 10:34:08 PM »
There's actually some archeological evidence for "little people" (paleolithic tools),

Homo florensis (sp?)? There are skeletons, but there is a lot of debate about whether they are a product of (can't remember the proper term) island caused 'smallism' (there used to be pygmy elephants on islands in the Med) or some sort of disease.
 
Quote
There's also archeological evidence of "demons" or "folks with demonic visages" (physical remains).
I'm curious about this - got any links?
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #53 on: February 12, 2008, 12:49:49 AM »
We don't assume that unicorns exist because a) they are figures of traditional mythology and b) we have no evidence of their physical existence. (The latter being the key.) This makes them, on both counts, akin to demons and leprechauns: creatures which have no detectable physical presence.

And so from the perspective of those who rely on our shared physical realm as reality - for a believer in leprechauns to deride those who believe in unicorns and faeries is, if not hypocrisy, then a serious inconsistency.   


The first part no one disagrees with.  The second part, where's the relevance?  The only one doing any deriding around here is Tecumseh, who apparently doesn't believe in any of those things. 

I will assume that you concede the point that demons don't necessitate unicorns, etc. 



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Tecumseh

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #54 on: February 12, 2008, 01:52:50 AM »
Mr.R, I think that there's a distinction between what you said and what Tecumseh said.

Your statement to me reads that person one believes that "a" exists.  Therefore person one can't claim that person two's belief in "b" is therefore false.

Tecumseh's statement reads that if "a" exists, then "b", "c", "d", and "e" exist.

It's true, the two statements are not the same, but I think they originate from the same general type of viewpoint - specifically, that it is just as impossible to disprove the existence of demons as it is to disprove the existence of leprechauns, unicorns, etc.  Thus, they all have equal standing as far as reality vs. fantasy. 

The fact that more people are likely to express a belief in angels/demons does not make them any more likely to exist in objective reality than loch ness monsters or giant flying transparent bikini zombies. 

I don't know where that came from.
  You are correct.  Unfortunately I am not as eloquent in my choosing of words. 

Scout26

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #55 on: February 12, 2008, 03:04:11 AM »
Quote from: Brokenpaw
You said you did) laying hands on people who had a particular demon infesting them, pulling the demon out, and then (here's the really great part) letting it go and moving on to another person.

You mean that this wasn't a documentary ??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ghostbusters_Poster.jpg



Demons are just a variation on the "It's society's fault I'm a bad actor." mentallity.

Dragons taste like chicken.  Unicorns taste like venison.   grin

Leprechauns do exist, I've seen one in Lucky Charms commericals.
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MrRezister

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #56 on: February 12, 2008, 04:10:19 AM »


Demons are just a variation on the "It's society's fault I'm a bad actor." mentallity.


That's my general view as well.  Even within the confines of whichever canon to which one chooses to adhere, if Man is seperated from the Angels by virtue of Free Will, then we have to accept that he is capable of carrying out evil without being infested by malevolent beings (demons/thetans/whatever).

I obviously have no real insight into the existence/nonexistence of demons or any other supernatural beings, but I think that to assume that all or even most of the evil/aberrant behavior of other people is attributable to otherworldly creatures is just another facet of victimology.  I'm responsible for everything I've ever done wrong in my entire life.  If that changes, I'll let you know.
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wooderson

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #57 on: February 12, 2008, 04:51:19 AM »
Quote
The first part no one disagrees with.  The second part, where's the relevance?  The only one doing any deriding around here is Tecumseh, who apparently doesn't believe in any of those things. 

The start of the thread is an attack on some Catholics for believing in exorcisms. (arguably, all Catholics, as possession and exorcism are part of the Church's teachings) Perhaps werewolf is an atheist and has no supernatural beliefs of his own - but given the demo around these parts, it would be rather surprising. (In any case, if the disagreement itself isn't directly relevant to this thread, that doesn't alter the disagreement.)

Quote
I will assume that you concede the point that demons don't necessitate unicorns, etc.
I can't concede a non-sequitur.
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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #58 on: February 12, 2008, 04:58:23 AM »
Quote
If you're not one now, I'd say you weren't really one then.  As a diagnostic question, what did they tell you the gospel was?
Lee, while I understand the premise from which you are making this argument, I have to tell you that it is flat-out incorrect.

This would be an egregious thread-jack to pursue in depth here, but in the interest of relating it to the non-canonical nature of these Toronto-revival based churches, let me say this:  I accepted Jesus as my personal Savior and Lord when I was sixteen years old, because of the unfailing kindness and care of the youth minister of a presbyterian church near my home.  This was a fairly straight-laced church, with no outrageous doctrine.  It was not until some four years later that I went to the Vineyard, and my faith in Christ was already established enough that I looked around that place and knew that any true Christianity that was happening there was happening in spite of the church, not because of it.

My philosophical departure from Christianity came four years after that, and had nothing whatsoever to do with what happened at the Vineyard.  I related what happened there as a curiosity, not as a reason for my departure from the path of Christ.

If you really actually want to have this conversation, we can take it to PM or e-mail, so as to spare the rest of these people the boring details of my fall from grace.  Smiley

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grampster

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #59 on: February 12, 2008, 05:38:10 AM »
Well, I believe I've actually seen an angel and experienced conversation.  Since they are not male or female or even a solid being in this plane, hard to describe,  I just call them Angel.  (I'm not locked up anywhere, either. grin)

Angel's name is Polarius and is my Guardian Angel.  It was a very powerful experience as well as one that was delightful and very moving.

Most would say it was an hallucination or a dream as it occurred during a nap I was taking about 15 years ago.  We were on vacation in Florida and I was wanting to get off the beach and to get out of the sun.  I went up to the room where it was cool and decided to lie down.  After a bit of time, I seemed to be in a state where I could still hear the TV and my wife puttering around getting ready to go to dinner later.  I was extremely comfortable, content and my eyes were mostly closed. Then at the foot of the bed was an apparition.  It had a face and seemed to be clothed in a filmy white gown.  the figure was beautiful in a non specific way.  Had nothing to do with gender. Gazing at Angel (I decided that's what it was as it seemed to come to my mind)  Angel did not move or speak in the sense we do.  Angel's voice was just something I could hear, but not with my ears.  Angel said Angel's name was Polarius and that they didn't converse by speaking, but I could "hear" Polarius.  Polarius "said" they were also not male or female.  The experience didn't seem to last very long but as I said it was a powerful and moving experience.  When I think about it from time to time I am comforted by remembering the experience. 

Now I know most, if not all of you, would probably scoff at this, and you may do so.  It matters not to me.  After 64 years on this planet, I've seen and experienced many things that cause me to wonder or scratch my head or that reinforce my beliefs.  Flame on if you will.
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MrRezister

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #60 on: February 12, 2008, 05:52:21 AM »
2 Corinthians 11:
12 But what I am doing I will continue to do, so that I may cut off opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the matter about which they are boasting.
13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.


You should probably be on your toes, just in case.
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matis

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #61 on: February 12, 2008, 06:55:21 AM »
Quote from: Fistful
Uh, no, you have zero information on which to base such judgments.  Buzz off.

8690 posts from somebody who lives in Missouri and works as a maintenance man in a mall.  Yeah, you're really hard to figure out, Josh.




RileyMc, Are you always this nasty or is your gout just bothering you worse today?


Something wrong with living in Missouri?

And judging him by what work he's doing to pay his way?  I guess that shows how clear and unbiased your thinking is.   

Why don't you just stick to the argument and leave the ad hominem stuff out?

Or, as he said, "Buzz off!"


matis






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AmbulanceDriver

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #62 on: February 12, 2008, 08:10:24 AM »
Dragging this slightly back towards at least general topic-ness....  Smiley

Or not.

I think my experiences are very similar to yours fistful.  At least once we moved up to the US.  We moved here in 1987, and my family began attending a local Foursquare church (for those not familiar, Foursquare is a moderately to very charismatic denomination of Christians).  For the first 12 or 13 years, I absolutely loved it.  The teaching was great, the worship phenomenal.  Granted, that had more to do with the pastors than anything else.  I was thoroughly involved with the church, helping to lead worship for the main services, leading worship for the college age, high school, and junior high groups throughout the years.  I was getting fed, I was growing, and I was feeding others.  Had gone on a number of missions trips, helped in the community, our church did the things that a church was *supposed* to do.  We got plugged in with the community and we LOVED people. 

When the founding pastor and his wife decided it was time to retire and hand the reins to someone else, that is when things soured.  These people were the heart of the church, but they had a STRONG pastoral leadership team around them.  Everyone pretty much assumed that one of the associate pastors would be promoted up to head the church, as most of them had been with the church from day 1.  Instead, the current head pastor decided to bring his son in, and put him in charge of the church.  People were a little surprised, a couple of people were hurt, but we moved on, and the church really rallied around the new head pastor. 

Now, this coincided with a lot of the Toronto/Vineyard movement stuff, and we had people coming back from visiting those churches who had been "touched".  They would have body spasms.  Holy "twitches" if you will.  Others would start shaking uncontrollably.  Yelling.  Grunting.  Groaning.  Laughing.  Now, I don't doubt that some of them were genuine.  Others, I really think (but can't say for sure) were people who considered themselves "holy" but weren't "manifesting" in the same way, and therefore started to on their own.  I have a hard time with it, but I really tried not to judge those people.  Just kind of ignored them as they were in their corner, doing their thing.  It didn't interfere between me and God.  But then people started seeking the experience more than the substance.  We had a couple of big falling outs in the church over it, and a few prominent families left over it, but then things seemed to settle back down. 

The straw that broke the camel's back, as it were, was the direction that the new head pastor had taken.  Before, we'd had a lot of balance in the sermons.  There was some "milk and honey" stuff for the newer Christians, the slightly more simplified sermons that really was what was needed as a younger believer.  But there were also the "meat and potatoes" sermons for the people that had been Christians for longer, that needed more substance, more detail, more challenge.  The new pastor, though, focused solely on the younger Christians, teaching only the "milk and honey" but never giving the rest of the congregation the substance they needed.  People at first thought it was just a transition phase until he "felt out" the new congregation and learned what they needed.  But when this continued for 12-18 months, people realized that it just wasn't gonna change, and started leaving to get fed elsewhere. 

And that's what happened to me.  About 100 people from the church split off to form their own church, including a large portion of the old churches pastoral staff.  They decided to be a non-denominational church, albeit one with a decidedly Foursquare flavor.  I went with those families, and instead of just finding a home, helped create a new church home.  It's a place that is comforting, but is still challenging.  We're again plugging into the community, investing in the community.  We have a ministry that was birthed out of several trips to Mississippi to help rebuild after Katrina, that works to help people in the community do work on their homes that they otherwise couldn't afford (we have several contractors that attend our church).  We put on a big community "block party" as it were with several other churches to involve them, invite them in, and love them. 

And, on topic.  Do I believe angels and demons exist?  absolutely?  Leprechauns, etc?  I highly doubt it.
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Strings

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #63 on: February 12, 2008, 10:54:34 AM »
Iain: you're asking me about stuff I read about literally over a decade ago...

 Evidence of the "lil' people" that I was refering to is more than just some physical remains (although "Pedro" is fairly convincing). Rather, there have been a number of instances of "GI Joe" sized knapped flint tools found in different places. There are also some architectural anomolies in a couple of the pre-Columbian ruins of Central and South America, consisting of tunnels (which include stairways) no larger than 1 foot high...

 As for the "demonic visages", there have been a number of human skulls found with horns, sharp teeth, and the like. Tests usually confirm that they have not been tampered with.

 There are more thing under Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamed of in your philosophy.

 

Perd Hapley

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #64 on: February 12, 2008, 11:22:48 AM »
.
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Iain

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #65 on: February 12, 2008, 11:37:30 AM »
When is your birthday? I'm either going to send you a card or make fradulent credit card applications...

Riley, quit whatever you are up to.

Strings - I wasn't calling you out. I'm interested. Obviously my 'philosophy' will be interested in possible natural explanations. For instance if the culture of Pakistan is totally lost to the future then this:

is going to look pretty weird to archaeologists and anthropologists.

There may well be more in heaven and earth though, I'm interested in seeing it if it is there to be seen.
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seeker_two

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #66 on: February 12, 2008, 11:44:16 AM »
And now Riley has sent me a PM, consisting only of my home address.  Which in case you're interested is:



I don't get it. 

Party at fistful's house!!!!

I'll bring the Doritos......
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MrRezister

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #67 on: February 12, 2008, 11:48:39 AM »
And now Riley has sent me a PM, consisting only of my home address.  Which in case you're interested is:



I don't get it. 

Obviously, G-d told him where you live so that you can be appropriately smited.  It's been nice knowing you fistful; and also, you should know that this is your own fault.
He never brought you an unbalanced budget, which is a perennial joke. He never voted himself a wage increase and, to this day, gives back part of his salary every year. He has always voted to preserve the Constitution, cut government spending, lower healthcare costs, end the war on drugs, secure our borders with immigration reform and protect our civil liberties.

lupinus

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #68 on: February 12, 2008, 12:01:37 PM »
Ah demons and exorcism and spooky stuff in general.

Demons do exist and can play a huge influence in peoples lives.  But that influence is largely external.  When one is baptized they receive the Holy Spirit, and since a demon and the Holy Spirit don't mingle well, a baptized Christian can't be possessed.  As I mentioned though, demons can still have some pretty impressive external influence though.  And of course, if one hasn't received the Holy Spirit possession is very possible.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #69 on: February 12, 2008, 12:04:24 PM »
.
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Marnoot

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #70 on: February 12, 2008, 12:56:57 PM »
No, really guys, why would someone tell me my own address?  I really don't know.

Should I be expecting a nice gift basket of Napa Valley wine? 

Should we dust in the guest bedroom, and put on fresh sheets?

Is he going to mail me some religious literature? 

He's either purporting to know everything about you because he knows where you live; or it's an idle "I know where you live!" type of threat. Either that, or he's sampled too much of that gift basket.

Sergeant Bob

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #71 on: February 12, 2008, 01:02:54 PM »
No, really guys, why would someone tell me my own address?  I really don't know.

Should I be expecting a nice gift basket of Napa Valley wine? 

Should we dust in the guest bedroom, and put on fresh sheets?

Is he going to mail me some religious literature? 

He's trying to intimidate you, by showing you how much he knows about you and make you think there's nothing you can hide from him.

Personally, I think he should probably just quit participating here as he seems to have very little good to say about anything. He's turned into nothing but a bitter, contrary old man.

Oh, and Riley, Fistful can take it a lot better than you can dish it out.
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #72 on: February 12, 2008, 01:15:11 PM »
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MrRezister

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #73 on: February 12, 2008, 01:26:10 PM »
Shhh....
Don't say his name aloud.... he can hear you thinking about him.
He never brought you an unbalanced budget, which is a perennial joke. He never voted himself a wage increase and, to this day, gives back part of his salary every year. He has always voted to preserve the Constitution, cut government spending, lower healthcare costs, end the war on drugs, secure our borders with immigration reform and protect our civil liberties.

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Re: Demons or Psychotherapy?
« Reply #74 on: February 12, 2008, 02:07:02 PM »
Quote

I don't get it.
I think I do. It's dispelling the rumor that you are, indeed, Lee L. Mercer - the only man fit for the White House, the last hope of the disaffected electorate.