oh no! immigration reality hurts

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

study they werejust talking about on fox. in calif immigrants represent 35 % of the population generally. yet less that 17 percent of jail population   
http://www.sacbee.com/101/story/739301.html

The study found that among males between the ages of 18 and 40  a group considered most likely to commit crimes  U.S.-born men are 10 times more likely than immigrants to be imprisoned or jailed.

[Paddy]

Doh! That's because the law can't find the illegals, they're 'undocumented' dontcha know.  "U.S. born males" have social security numbers, employment records, driver's license and even credit files.

And "Immigrants are 35 percent of California's adult population, the study notes, but only 17 percent of the state's prison population" is a meaningless statistic.  Does the % of the prison population equal the % of each particular 'group' in the general population? 

[Sergeant Bob]

Doh! That's because the law can't find the illegals, they're 'undocumented' dontcha know.  "U.S. born males" have social security numbers, employment records, driver's license and even credit files.

And "Immigrants are 35 percent of California's adult population, the study notes, but only 17 percent of the state's prison population" is a meaningless statistic.  Does the % of the prison population equal the % of each particular 'group' in the general population? 

And the fact that when the illegals do get in trouble, they just make a run for the border. The study IIRC, only indicates who are more likely to be "incarcerated" which doesn't take into account the ones that got away. It also examine the severity of the crimes or how many crimes the people in the study were convicted.

Beside the fact that it is not only an illegal immigrant problem, but a national security problem.

[Tecumseh]

Beside the fact that it is not only an illegal immigrant problem, but a national security problem.

  Almost as dangerous as Iraq in my opinion. 

[vaskidmark]

First off, the "study" is merely an accumulation of numbers, with no analysis of why those numbers might or might not mean anything.  But they sure sound good.

Now, regarding:

Beside the fact that it is not only an illegal immigrant problem, but a national security problem.

  Almost as dangerous as Iraq in my opinion. 

I need some guidance.  Is it wrong to want to just smack that boy?

I've stayed out of almost every thread where he was involved, and have been mildly amused by some of the riposts aimed at him and his postings.  As such, I think I can with honesty say I really do not care what the boy thinks or what his politics/philosophy are/is.

But this makes me want to just smack him up side the head.  I know it won't change anything, but I think I'll feel better after I do it.

Is that wrong?

stay safe.

skidmark

[Manedwolf]

First off, the "study" is merely an accumulation of numbers, with no analysis of why those numbers might or might not mean anything.  But they sure sound good.

Now, regarding:

Beside the fact that it is not only an illegal immigrant problem, but a national security problem.

  Almost as dangerous as Iraq in my opinion. 

I need some guidance.  Is it wrong to want to just smack that boy?

I've stayed out of almost every thread where he was involved, and have been mildly amused by some of the riposts aimed at him and his postings.  As such, I think I can with honesty say I really do not care what the boy thinks or what his politics/philosophy are/is.

But this makes me want to just smack him up side the head.  I know it won't change anything, but I think I'll feel better after I do it.

Is that wrong?

stay safe.

skidmark

I'm not sure what's wrong with him or what happened to him. Maybe he drank a bottle of patchouli oil.

[The Rabbi]

Point out the obvious, that illegals really dont commit more crimes or that they really do fill jobs other people won't, provide studies to that effect and the only response is that the study must be rigged.  It's gotta be.  I mean, we all just know that they are a blight, a crime wave in the making.  It's all rigged.  It's Bush's fault.

[Paddy]

It's Bush's fault.

Gotta get it in now because time is running short and soon we won't have Bush to kick around anymore. 

[7MAG]

If 35% of the pop. are illegals and only 7% are in jail, then the ONLY question is how do we get the other 28% in jail.

They are illegals, they are trespassing, it is a CRIME for them to be here.

[AZRedhawk44]

study they werejust talking about on fox. in calif immigrants represent 35 % of the population generally. yet less that 17 percent of jail population   

Sounds to me like they are lumping LEGAL IMMIGRANTS in with ILLEGAL ALIENS to create this statistic ("calif immigrants" referred to in the OP).

LEGAL IMMIGRANTS are some of the most respectful and law-abiding people in our society and are a boon in every way imaginable.  Most of them become US Citizens and are true patriots, having seen the other side of the coin in the armpits they they came from.

ILLEGAL ALIENS start off by breaking laws varying from unlawful entry to tresspass to racketeering and involvement with organized crime to drug smuggling to property theft and vandalism.  Then they add to it because they have no respect for the systems we have in place... they falsify identification documents, steal health care and social services benefits.

[seeker_two]

If they are illegal aliens, they already HAVE committed a crime......

[Hawkmoon]

Point out the obvious, that illegals really dont commit more crimes or that they really do fill jobs other people won't, provide studies to that effect and the only response is that the study must be rigged.  It's gotta be.  I mean, we all just know that they are a blight, a crime wave in the making.  It's all rigged.  It's Bush's fault.

I'm not sure where you're coming from on this. Illegal immigrants don't take jobs Americans (or legal immigrants) won't do, they just take those jobs for less pay than a legal worker is willing to do the work for. All that does is drive down the overall pay scale, and siphon money out of the economy and out of the social security system because so many workers are being paid "under the table."

Around here it's a full-blown epidemic. I know of streets where you can see them lined up in the morning, and contractors looking for cheap help just cruise the street picking up the number of warm bodies they need for that day. It's worse than the hookers and the Johns on the same streets at night.

[nico]

study they werejust talking about on fox. in calif immigrants represent 35 % of the population generally. yet less that 17 percent of jail population   

Sounds to me like they are lumping LEGAL IMMIGRANTS in with ILLEGAL ALIENS to create this statistic ("calif immigrants" referred to in the OP).

That's the first thing I noticed too.  I've seen quite a few instances where people in the media conveniently frame a discussion in terms of "immigrants" instead of "illegal immigrants." 

[The Rabbi]

Point out the obvious, that illegals really dont commit more crimes or that they really do fill jobs other people won't, provide studies to that effect and the only response is that the study must be rigged.  It's gotta be.  I mean, we all just know that they are a blight, a crime wave in the making.  It's all rigged.  It's Bush's fault.

I'm not sure where you're coming from on this. Illegal immigrants don't take jobs Americans (or legal immigrants) won't do, they just take those jobs for less pay than a legal worker is willing to do the work for. All that does is drive down the overall pay scale, and siphon money out of the economy and out of the social security system because so many workers are being paid "under the table."

Around here it's a full-blown epidemic. I know of streets where you can see them lined up in the morning, and contractors looking for cheap help just cruise the street picking up the number of warm bodies they need for that day. It's worse than the hookers and the Johns on the same streets at night.

Actually it's supply and demand. So employers can't/won't pay higher wages.  I dont see why they should. And I dont see any problem with people offering to do a full day's work in exchange for getting paid. Do you?

[wooderson]

I've seen quite a few instances where people in the media conveniently frame a discussion in terms of "immigrants" instead of "illegal immigrants."

Because there's no difference between the two groups?

[keeleon]

If this is actually talking about ILLEGAL imigrants, then I say the study just shows that %17 of our prison population shouldn't be here in the first place.  Imagine the money we could save and spend on border security if the prison system could handle a near %20 budget cut.

If they are illegal aliens, they already HAVE committed a crime......

Which means that, again if they are talking about illegal immigrants, then %35 of our population at least is criminals, and should be imprisoned.  Of course since this is probably talking about "immigrants", then it is just pointless numbers.  May as well talk about how many left handed people are in prison.

Actually it's supply and demand. So employers can't/won't pay higher wages.  I dont see why they should. And I dont see any problem with people offering to do a full day's work in exchange for getting paid. Do you?

I understand the need and desire for a cheaper labor force, but we also need to think about ourselves.  I would have no problem with them being here if we would just change our anchor baby laws, and not hand out any free services to them.  No free education, no health care.  They can work here all they want, and hell they can send their money home to mexico, but if they want education and health care, they need to use that money here.  Of course, I also have no problem with making it easier to become a citizen, but why should you get all the benefits without doing the work?  That is socialism.

[Manedwolf]

Point out the obvious, that illegals really dont commit more crimes or that they really do fill jobs other people won't, provide studies to that effect and the only response is that the study must be rigged.  It's gotta be.  I mean, we all just know that they are a blight, a crime wave in the making.  It's all rigged.  It's Bush's fault.

I'm not sure where you're coming from on this. Illegal immigrants don't take jobs Americans (or legal immigrants) won't do, they just take those jobs for less pay than a legal worker is willing to do the work for. All that does is drive down the overall pay scale, and siphon money out of the economy and out of the social security system because so many workers are being paid "under the table."

Around here it's a full-blown epidemic. I know of streets where you can see them lined up in the morning, and contractors looking for cheap help just cruise the street picking up the number of warm bodies they need for that day. It's worse than the hookers and the Johns on the same streets at night.

Actually it's supply and demand. So employers can't/won't pay higher wages.  I dont see why they should. And I dont see any problem with people offering to do a full day's work in exchange for getting paid. Do you?

So have you actually joined La Raza or Aztlan, yet?

[De Selby]

So have you actually joined La Raza or Aztlan, yet?

Note that La Raza is an American organization.  Born and bred in America.  The racial ideology that comes with it is not only American, it is uniquely so-there never was a "bronze nation" movement in Mexico.

That's the irony of the illegal immigrant boogeyman-inevitably the groups people name to scare others in this debate are AMERICAN, and magically the illegals are responsible because why? They both have hispanic surnames, or what?

[Hawkmoon]

Actually it's supply and demand. So employers can't/won't pay higher wages.  I dont see why they should. And I dont see any problem with people offering to do a full day's work in exchange for getting paid. Do you?

Yes, Rabbi, I do see a problem. When the people offering to do the work are illegal, which means they should not be here and have no right to offer to do the work, and that takes work away from people who ARE here legally and who would like to do the work ... yes, I'd say I do see a problem with that. I very much see a problem with that.

[Sergeant Bob]

So have you actually joined La Raza or Aztlan, yet?

Fixed!

[BridgeWalker]

Actually it's supply and demand. So employers can't/won't pay higher wages.  I dont see why they should. And I dont see any problem with people offering to do a full day's work in exchange for getting paid. Do you?

Yes. They aren't working legally, so they aren't paying social security or medicaid or medicare.  Any who are making enough to pay, aren't paying income taxes.  I strongly suspect that they are not scrupulously careful about reporting all their undocumented income, which means they are receiving disproportionately higher amounts of welfare benefits like food stamps and health care. 

Yes, I have a problem with the fact that an illegal immigrant can net more money for equal work than someone who is working legally, making it possible for them to work for less, making it less possible for legal workers to pay the rent with what is left of the their paychecks after government deductions.

I'm in favor of liberal immigration standards.  I'm not in favor of rewarding people for breaking the law. 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

more reallity  sorry to spoil the bonfire and necktie party

http://www.reason.org/commentaries/dalmia_20060501.shtml
But, immigrants aren't flocking to the United States to mooch off the government. According to a study by the Urban Institute, the 1996 welfare reform effort dramatically reduced the use of welfare by undocumented immigrant households, exactly as intended. And another vital thing happened in 1996: the Internal Revenue Service began issuing identification numbers to enable illegal immigrants who don't have Social Security numbers to file taxes.

One might have imagined that those fearing deportation or confronting the prospect of paying for their safety net through their own meager wages would take a pass on the IRS' scheme. Not so. Close to 8 million of the 12 million or so illegal aliens in the country today file personal income taxes using these numbers, contributing billions to federal coffers. No doubt they hope that this will one day help them acquire legal status  a plaintive expression of their desire to play by the rules and come out of the shadows.

What's more, aliens who are not self-employed have Social Security and Medicare taxes automatically withheld from their paychecks. Since undocumented workers have only fake numbers, they'll never be able to collect the benefits these taxes are meant to pay for. Last year, the revenues from these fake numbers  that the Social Security administration stashes in the earnings suspense file  added up to 10 percent of the Social Security surplus. The file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year.

Beyond federal taxes, all illegals automatically pay state sales taxes that contribute toward the upkeep of public facilities such as roads that they use, and property taxes through their rent that contribute toward the schooling of their children. The non-partisan National Research Council found that when the taxes paid by the children of low-skilled immigrant families  most of whom are illegal  are factored in, they contribute on average $80,000 more to federal coffers than they consume.



The fact that illegal immigrants pay taxes at all will come as news to many Americans. A stunning two-thirds of illegal immigrants pay Medicare, Social Security and personal income taxes. Yet, nativists like Congressman Tom Tancredo, R-Colo., have popularized the notion that illegal aliens are a colossal drain on the nation's hospitals, schools and welfare programs  consuming services that they don't pay for.

[BridgeWalker]

If you really think that guys getting picked up off the street for a couple hours work are getting paid any way but cash, you are seriously deluding yourself.

[De Selby]

If you really think that guys getting picked up off the street for a couple hours work are getting paid any way but cash, you are seriously deluding yourself.

Most of them aren't being picked up for a couple hours work-they have real jobs.

The only real sensible argument I see is wage pressure-yes, more labor means lower prices for employers, which means lower wages on average for American workers.

The question then, is:  Do workers have a right to call on the government to drive up their wages by restricting entry to the labor market? 

The rest of the debate seems to go nowhere and rely on no substantial argument or fact.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

if you really think that all these guys wait on the street you might wanna broaden your horizons do a lil manual labor as a social experiment and find ot more about the 12 million plus we got here already.bear in mind i spent thelast 35 years in first food service and last decade construction so my contact with the "brown horde" has been pretty extensive.and in both those industries i haven't seen that many haoles that wanna work. till recently there was way more work than workers even with the latinos. i know in utopia folks might imagine 100 % employment but in the real world 5% unemployment is considered full employment. there are a certain number of leeches that just don't wanna work or in some case can't work