Author Topic: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS  (Read 42182 times)

gunsmith

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52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« on: April 05, 2008, 02:22:55 PM »
52 people taken
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/05/us/05jeffs.html?ref=us



200 people taken
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iIdMpRHjN4hpNKBhfYyAsR4DDo4QD8VRVHLG1

Anyways, this is the Fundamentalist Church Of Latter Day Saints which has gotten a fair amount of press lately for marrying teen girls to men the leader of the Church select.

At least, thats what the press is saying, The State swooping in and "taking"
an either large or very large group of people is very suspicious to me.

This is looking like another Waco in the making (perhaps).
I do not like the press cheering and no voices for the "taken"

I do not know anything about this Church and do not have a dog in this fight, but something seems wrong to me!
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Manedwolf

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2008, 03:55:49 PM »
I do not know anything about this Church

You're right. You don't know anything about it. It's not a church, it's a cult.
It's a cult that's been marrying off 12-year-old female children to their older male cousins.

From AP...
Quote

The investigation began after a 16-year-old living there complained of physical abuse. A search warrant authorized state troopers to enter the retreat run by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and look for evidence of a marriage between the girl and a 50-year-old man.

The warrant said the girl had a baby eight months ago, when she was 15.

You okay with that? I'm not. Cult of pedophiles. Needs eradicating yesterday.

Bigjake

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They're at it again
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2008, 05:33:51 PM »
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,346959,00.html

Sect leaders at a polygamist compound in West Texas refused Saturday to let authorities search a temple for a teenage girl whose report of abuse led to the raid, and authorities said they were preparing "for the worst."

If no agreement is reached with sect leaders, authorities will forcibly remove the sect's followers "as peaceably as possible," Allison Palmer, a prosecutor in Tom Green County, told the San Angelo Standard-Times.

Medical workers are being sent "in case this were to a go in a way that no one wants," Palmer said. Law enforcers are "preparing for the worst," she said.

"Within the religion that we have encountered, their place of worship is very special to them," Palmer said. "It appears to be of great concern to them if a person from outside their congregation even attempts to step inside their place of worship."

A search warrant authorized troopers to enter the retreat, run by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. They are looking for evidence of a marriage between the girl and a 50-year-old man.

Court documents the girl had a baby eight months ago, when she was 15.

State welfare officials on Friday removed 52 girls from the compound. Marleigh Meisner, a spokeswoman for Child Protective Services, said another 131 residents were removed overnight. By Saturday afternoon, 137 children and 46 women were being housed and interviewed at local community centers.

"They seem to be doing fine," Meisner told The Associated Press. Investigators remained inside the compound looking for additional children, she said.

The whereabouts of the 16-year-old mother who sparked the investigation are unknown, Meisner said. State troopers who raided the religious retreat were looking for the girl, her baby girl and 50-year-old Dale Barlow.

Under Texas law, girls younger than 16 cannot marry, even with parental approval.

Officials in Texas declined to comment Saturday on whether they had found Barlow, citing a gag order, but the man's probation officer told The Salt Lake Tribune that he was in Arizona.

"He said the authorities had called him (in Colorado City, Ariz.) and some girl had accused him of assaulting her and he didn't even know who she was," said Bill Loader, a probation officer in Arizona.

Barlow was sentenced to jail time last year after pleading no contest to conspiracy to commit sexual conduct with a minor. He was also ordered to register as a sex offender for three years while he is on probation.

His lawyer in that case, Bruce Griffen, said he had not spoken to Barlow in a year.

The search warrant instructed officers to look for marriage records or other evidence linking her to the man and the baby. The warrant authorized the seizure of computer drives, CDs, DVDs or photos.

Those inside the retreat did not respond to requests for comment.

The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints broke away from the Mormon church after the latter disavowed polygamy more than a century ago.

The compound sits down a narrow paved road and behind a hill that shields it almost entirely from view in town. Only the 80-foot-high, gleaming white temple can be seen on the horizon. Authorities blocked access to the gate, keeping onlookers miles away.

The 1,700-acre property had been an exotic game ranch. It is surrounded by dusty, wind-swept land where sheep are raised and mohair produced.

Eldorado (pronounced el-dor-AY'-do) is a two-stoplight town of fewer than 2,000 people and located nearly 200 miles northwest of San Antonio. It consists of a cluster of government buildings, a couple churches and a few blocks of houses.

State officials said they did not know how many people lived at the retreat, although local officials estimated about 150 two years ago.

The FLDS has been led by Warren Jeffs since his father died in 2002. In November, Jeffs was sentenced to two consecutive sentences of five years to life in prison in Utah for being an accomplice to the rape of a 14-year-old girl who wed her cousin in an arranged marriage in 2001.

In Arizona, Jeffs is charged as an accomplice with four counts each of incest and sexual conduct with a minor stemming from two arranged marriages between teenage girls and their older male relatives. He is jailed in Kingman, Ariz., awaiting trial.



looks like the feds have got the itch, having not burned out any religious folks lately.

The Annoyed Man

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Re: They're at it again
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2008, 05:40:44 PM »
Child molestors need to be  incarcerated.  Hiding behind a 'religion' doesn't protect you from prosecution.

BlueStarLizzard

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2008, 05:42:28 PM »
i'm with manewolf. a church does not hide its actions, allow known phedophiles into postions of high rank or need to hide rituals from the publics eye (at least in my opinion)
besides, if you were just released from an isolated life, after being married off to an old man and raped, not to mention the extrem mental abuse and brainwashing, would you want to tak to the press?
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De Selby

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2008, 06:12:56 PM »
I do not know anything about this Church

You're right. You don't know anything about it. It's not a church, it's a cult.
It's a cult that's been marrying off 12-year-old female children to their older male cousins.

From AP...
Quote

The investigation began after a 16-year-old living there complained of physical abuse. A search warrant authorized state troopers to enter the retreat run by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and look for evidence of a marriage between the girl and a 50-year-old man.

The warrant said the girl had a baby eight months ago, when she was 15.

You okay with that? I'm not. Cult of pedophiles. Needs eradicating yesterday.

I know one thing-allegations are enough for some people to call for the shooting start.

Not me though.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: They're at it again
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2008, 06:13:36 PM »
Hiding behind a 'religion' doesn't protect you from prosecution.


What?!  Dang it! 
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RevDisk

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2008, 06:23:19 PM »
i'm with manewolf. a church does not hide its actions, allow known phedophiles into postions of high rank or need to hide rituals from the publics eye (at least in my opinion)
besides, if you were just released from an isolated life, after being married off to an old man and raped, not to mention the extrem mental abuse and brainwashing, would you want to tak to the press?

I assume it'd be low taste to point out the Vatican has done all of those?  The difference between a cult and a religion is merely a numbers thing.

But yes, I agree with the second part.  If the girl wants to talk to the press, ok.  If not, the press better not press the issue.
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Manedwolf

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2008, 06:23:32 PM »
They need to be arrested and taken before a court. That's how things work here. But if they start shooting, if the children are safe and all accounted for, return fire with helicopter gunships and level the damn place.

I assume it'd be low taste to point out the Vatican has done all of those? 

In this century, as part of doctrine? In recent history? Then how is that relevant? Oh, that's right...it's not.

Matthew Carberry

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2008, 07:39:37 PM »
Individuals in the Catholic Church (among a hundred other organizations religious and non) have committed crimes and individuals in the Church (and all those other orgs.) have covered it up, which is also a crime.  As far as the Church is concerned, both those sets of individuals have in fact violated Church doctrine and teaching while committing those crimes and are now being punished as the organization works to rid itself of such violators and atone to their victims.  It's far from perfect, but it is fixing itself by re-adhering to its very nature.

The polygamist church explicitly requires pedophilia and kidnapping be committed in order to carry out their doctrine, and does everything it can as an organization to protect those violators from punishment both within the organization and from the proper authorities, as part of the church's very existence.

If you can't see how those two situations are diametrically opposite you are deliberately not looking with honest eyes.

As for cult and church being simply a numbers game, BS.  rolleyes

I believe there is an absolutely secular definition of "cult" used by law enforcement.  No real church, Christian, Muslim, Jewish or, yes, even Pagan, in the US today fits it. 

Unless you guys are secretly using brainwashing techniques and physically preventing people from leaving (a couple obvious descriptors), cause I know no actual Protestant or Catholic denominations are.



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gunsmith

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2008, 08:04:14 PM »
Quote
From AP

The AP? The same AP that routinely gets everything wrong, all of a sudden I'm supposed to trust it?

Pedophiles? AP and the rest of the MSM said the same thing about Koresh.

I want more then sensationalist allegations from a media that hates
everything except Obama.
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Manedwolf

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2008, 08:05:46 PM »
Quote
From AP

The AP? The same AP that routinely gets everything wrong, all of a sudden I'm supposed to trust it?

Pedophiles? AP and the rest of the MSM said the same thing about Koresh.

I want more then sensationalist allegations from a media that hates
everything except Obama.

Uh...oooookay. It's on every news source, large and small.

Alright, then... tinfoil a little too tight?

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2008, 08:28:10 PM »
Quote
Alright, then... tinfoil a little too tight?

Hmmm, let me check.....nope, the rays are reaching my cerebelum quite fine grin

ALL the media said the same thing about Weaver, Koresh etc.

Let someone get caught with a black powder .50 and the same media shows a Barret.

Heck, they cant even tell us if it is 200 people or 52 people.
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2008, 08:44:15 PM »
Quote
Alright, then... tinfoil a little too tight?

Hmmm, let me check.....nope, the rays are reaching my cerebelum quite fine grin

ALL the media said the same thing about Weaver, Koresh etc.

Let someone get caught with a black powder .50 and the same media shows a Barret.

Heck, they cant even tell us if it is 200 people or 52 people.

Actually, from the story, it was originally 52 children, then they removed 131 more.

Quote
State welfare officials on Friday removed 52 girls from the compound. Marleigh Meisner, a spokeswoman for Child Protective Services, said another 131 residents were removed overnight. By Saturday afternoon, 137 children and 46 women were being housed and interviewed at local community centers.

I don't know if you've researched these folks, but this isn't a new "get them cause of guns and weirdness" issue.  The accusations against this church have come from within and without for over two decades.  Both US and Canadian authorities have reams of documentation to support the charges, not from some ATF informant, but from people who have escaped the church.  Multiple grand jury investigations have taken place that have proven a continuing series of forcible marriages of underage girls resulting in rapes.  People who have tried to leave the church were actually killed by order of its leaders back in '84.

Jon Krakauer wrote a fairly well-sourced book in 2003 about them, "Under the Banner of Heaven".  They've been investigated by multiple reporters and independant groups.

They are criminal scum, there's no doubt about it.  The patriarch was imprisoned years ago and that didn't stop them, they dodge from Canada to sparsely populated areas of the SW US to evade law enforcement.  The current leader has been convicted of multiple crimes.

In this case, the cigar is a cigar.  They, or at least the current leadership and their doctrine, are a clear danger to the children and women involved and they and it need to be eliminated.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2008, 03:37:35 AM »
this group is interesting since they own the local cops.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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wmenorr67

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2008, 04:00:03 AM »
Leaders a little pissed that one of the flock complained to the authorities.
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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2008, 04:33:14 AM »
So far they can't seem to locate the original girl that made the complaint.

I noticed in news broadcast that the authorities used Baptist Church busses to
take the women and children, why couldn't they use other transport?

afaik, this offshoot of Mormon started right after polygamy was outlawed, so they have been around for awhile.

After Ruby Ridge and Waco I feel we have to treat gov't incursions against rural
"compounds" with a grain of salt.

Should we kill the children for their own good like the last time?
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2008, 04:49:26 AM »
there is a lot of info on these folks out.  you might wanna check em out before you take their side.an awful lotta documentation from members/exmembers.  some stuff i believe you will be bothered by   a lot
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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BridgeRunner

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2008, 04:54:32 AM »
So far they can't seem to locate the original girl that made the complaint.

If I was a sixteen year old girl, with a baby to protect and a much older, powerful husband and a hierarchy of powerful adults threatening to hurt me if I told anyone about my rape/abuse, and then I was rescued from my abusers along with nearly two hundred of my peers, I also would not stand up and say "Me! It was me!  I'd love to testify so that if something goes wrong and  they regain control, they can kill me and my baby!"

Buses are a handy way to move a large number of people.
They beat both walking and trying to get car keys out of a bunch of "husbands" of teenagers who regard sexual domination of teenagers as their right and duty.

Yeah, maybe it's been going on for years.  In my opinion, someone standing up and saying "I'm being abused, get me out of here" provides the perfect reason for government to interfere.

Do you think they should have ignored her?  Sorry kid, go talk to your "husband"?

Sometimes when cops respond to home invasions things go wrong too.  Does this mean that cops shouldn't respond to requests to home invasion calls?

I find it hard to believe you are actually defending these people.  Do you really think that teenagers should be sexually enslaved against their will simply because the enslavement takes place in a pseudo-religious "compound"?

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2008, 05:00:14 AM »
when if jeffs is put in the general population there will be one more arranged wedding he'll attend.   well maybe more than one  grin
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Perd Hapley

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2008, 08:11:07 AM »
  The difference between a cult and a religion is merely a numbers thing. 

Nope, you really ought to look at what "cult" means.  And it has more than one meaning.  But size is never the only factor in identifying a cult. 
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Mabs2

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Re: They're at it again
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2008, 11:24:37 AM »
Child molestors need to be  incarcerated.  Hiding behind a 'religion' doesn't protect you from prosecution.
I could think of a few things that need to be done to them.  Incarceration is a bit too nice for them.
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Parker Dean

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2008, 11:48:38 AM »

I know one thing-allegations are enough for some people to call for the shooting start.

Not me though.

One of the few things shootinstudent has said that I agree with.

Too often the allegation is used to demonize and sensationalize, particularly by the press. Wasn't there some school somewhere that every teacher was a pedophile. Oh that's right it was a fraud, exacerbated by the press, yet we're supposed to take current reporting without question.

And another thing, just because some of use are saying that the charges are not necessarily true just because they've been made, which most here would agree with were it any other issue, suddenly we're defenders of pedophiles? Not an acceptable charge and those making it should already know that sort of personal attack is not going to fly with the members of this board. It also and reflects poorly on those making it.

In short, I consider the charges Not Proven just because there's news reports about it. When there's real evidence available, not mere allegations and stories, I'll make my decision based on that evidence. Until then I consider the matter a witch hunt and not worthy of the emotionalism some seem to have invested.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2008, 12:58:19 PM »
lets se the former head is doing 5 to life and confessed, kinda, and recanted. the church has made no bones about its beliefs and practices and more than one person has come out to describe em.they own the local cops and have not been shy about offing the opposition.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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gunsmith

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2008, 06:36:20 PM »
Quote
I find it hard to believe you are actually defending these people.

I am not defending anyone !! really, I am simply questioning the gov't and the gov't story.

To often in recent times have children been killed to "protect" them.

Quote
Do you think they should have ignored her?  Sorry kid, go talk to your "husband"?
No, and I never even hinted such.
 
Quote
Do you really think that teenagers should be sexually enslaved against their will simply because the enslavement takes place in a pseudo-religious "compound"?


Ahh, the old "do you still beat your wife" question.

Bridgewalker, do you think we should kill a bunch of kids to save them?
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."