Author Topic: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS  (Read 42185 times)

gunsmith

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #50 on: April 08, 2008, 10:13:07 AM »
excellent post John!

Thats the kind of criticism I am looking for, not someone assuming I'm on their side.

I really do not know a lot about the legal system, I know some lawyers, but I have not disscussed(SIC) this case with them personally.

I find a lot of elements disturbing about this case.
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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #51 on: April 08, 2008, 10:22:15 AM »
There's "legal" and there's "right."
 
How would you feel if you had a 50 year old co-worker tell you that he was going to Bangkok on a sex tour? Or if he brought back a 12 year old "bride?"
 
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gunsmith

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #52 on: April 08, 2008, 10:35:34 AM »
Quote
There's "legal" and there's "right."

I agree.

Good point.

I just do not want to see this happening unjustly, I have had cps involved
in my family in the sixties when I was a kid.
They were frigging lowlifes that did more harm then good.

Quote
There's "legal" and there's "right."
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."

HankB

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #53 on: April 08, 2008, 10:54:04 AM »
. . . How would you feel if you had a 50 year old co-worker tell you that he was going to Bangkok on a sex tour?
Given that the bugs that are prevalent today do not respond to a shot of penicillin like they used to, I'd avoid him like the plague. (He might come back with that, too. Serve him right.)
Or if he brought back a 12 year old "bride?"
I'd be on the phone to 911 immediately . . . child rape, kidnapping, etc. . . .

I don't think anyone here is defending the alleged practices of this group. Most people here  - including yours truly - wouldn't object to executing people proven to be child rapists.

The concerns seem to revolve around due process . . . these people are American citizens on American soil, not foreign terrorists in Gitmo . . . holding them for days without arrest or charges, and without any indication of when or if they'll be charged or released, is dangerous for everyone.

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JohnBT

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #54 on: April 08, 2008, 11:47:14 AM »
From the Dallas News:

"A 2006 report in Salon documented sect leaders' practice of banishing teenage boys and young adult men for minor rule infractions, a practice that limits the pool of marriage-eligible men. Nice, huh?

In other words, there's a pretty good case to be made that this isn't just a peaceable social compact among consenting adults.

There's a pretty good case to be made that this is a longstanding child-molestation cult operated for the pleasure and convenience of a select circle of adult men, though there has been no report yet of criminal charges after the raid."

Matthew Carberry

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #55 on: April 08, 2008, 11:55:28 AM »
When you arrest and charge the clock starts ticking.  The authorities are dealing with a decades-old, international criminal conspiracy with this outfit and probably won't be charging until their ducks are in a row.

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #56 on: April 08, 2008, 12:12:24 PM »
my .02

admitatly i know almost nothing about this case, only a little about FLD (i read under the banner of heaven a couple years ago) and my understanding of law and due process is on a laymens level at best.

1.) all this information you guys are getting is from the media. gov't officials are mostly likely giving limited statements, and the media is fleshing out the statements to make a story for the 6 o'clock news. any information you are getting is second hand and pretty unreliable. not to mention that they are going to shade it as dramatically as possibly to get 'news' sold. 

2.) would the gov't go against a group like this and break the rules when they KNOW that if by breaking any rules they almost certainly will lose the case in the courtroom? i think it looks bad if they had a child molester and proof and the guy got out on a technicality.

 
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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #57 on: April 08, 2008, 08:02:38 PM »
any of you fellers following the news?  larry king tonite had a good piece on tghese poor oppressed folks.  the ones who are accused in the court documents of marrying off 13 year olds.  they had some escapees on too. to describe what life was like in there.  the one womans description of being abused there when she was 7 was pretty special.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

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WTF? Can you say, "Salem witch hunt, boys & girls?"
« Reply #58 on: April 14, 2008, 02:23:48 AM »
Sect Mothers Appeal to Texas Governor
 Email this Story

Apr 13, 9:34 PM (ET)

By JENNIFER DOBNER


SAN ANGELO, Texas (AP) - The mothers of children removed from a polygamous sect's ranch in West Texas after an abuse allegation are appealing to Gov. Rick Perry for help, saying some of their children have become sick and even required hospitalization.

In the letter, a copy of which was obtained by The Associated Press, the mothers from the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints also say children are "horrified" by physical examinations they have undergone while in state custody.


The mothers said the letter was mailed Saturday. Perry spokesman Robert Black said Sunday that he had not seen the letter and couldn't comment.

Some 416 children were rounded up and placed in temporary custody 11 days ago after a domestic violence hot line recorded a complaint from a 16-year-old girl. She said she was physically and sexually abused by her 50-year-old husband.
 three women who claim they represent others, says about 15 mothers were away from the property when their children were removed.

"We were contacted and told our homes had been raided, our children taken away with no explanation, and because of law enforcement blockade preventing entering or leaving the ranch, we were unable to get to our homes and had no-where to go," it said. "As of Wednesday, April 9, 2008, we have been permitted to return to our empty, ransacked homes, heartsick and lonely."

The mothers said they want Perry to examine the conditions in which the removed children have been placed.

"You would be appalled," the letter said. "Many of our children have become sick as a result of the conditions they have been placed in. Some have even had to be taken to the hospital. Our innocent children are continually being questioned on things they know nothing about. The physical examinations were horrifying to the children. The exposure to these conditions is traumatizing them."

Asked about claims that children were hospitalized, state Child Protective Services spokeswoman Marissa Gonzalez said she had not seen the letter and would have to review it before commenting.

Officials have said that about a dozen children had chicken pox and that others needed prescription medications but hadn't said whether any were hospitalized.

A judge will decide this week whether the children will remain in state custody or return to their families. Hearings are scheduled for Monday and Thursday.

On Sunday, state officials enforced a judge's order to confiscate the cell phones of the women and children removed from the ranch.

The emergency order was sought by attorneys ad litem for 18 FLDS girls in the state's custody, Gonzalez said.

In a copy of the order provided to the AP, lawyers said the phones should be confiscated "to prevent improper communication, tampering with witnesses and to ensure no outside inhibitors to the attorney-client relationship."

Gonazalez estimated that at least 50 phones were taken.


The children are being housed in San Angelo's historic Fort Concho and at the nearby Wells Fargo pavilion. About 140 women from the ranch are also with the children, although they are not in state custody.

On Saturday, five FLDS women staying at the fort told Salt Lake City's Deseret News that the temporary shelter is cramped - cots, cribs and play pens are lined up side by side - and that many of the children are frightened.

An FLDS member who told the AP that his family members are among those inside the fort called the removal of phones a punishment.

"This was nothing more than retaliation of CPS to punish those who were disclosing what is really happening behind that wall of this concentration camp," said Don, who asked that only his first name be used because of the upcoming custody hearings.

Affidavits filed by child protection workers said they found a pattern of abuse at the Yearning for Zion ranch in Eldorado, about 45 miles south of San Angelo.

The 1,700-acre fenced ranch, a former game preserve, was bought by the FLDS in 2003. A number of large dormitory-style homes have been built, along with a small medical center, a cheese factory, a rock quarry, a water treatment plant and a towering, white limestone temple.

Authorities said they have not yet located the teenage mother whose call for help triggered the raid at the ranch.

Texas authorities have issued an arrest warrant for the alleged husband, a man identified as Dale Barlow of Colorado City, Ariz., one of two communities on the Utah-Arizona border that have been the traditional home base of the secretive church.

Texas Rangers met with Barlow and his probation officer in St. George, Utah, on Saturday but did not arrest him. Barlow is serving three years' probation after pleading no contest to sexual misconduct with a minor - a teenager to whom he was spiritually married.

"As for Mr. Barlow, we are continuing to look into whether we have a warrant on the correct person," said Tela Mange, spokeswoman for the Texas Department of Public Safety. "Until we are able to locate and talk with the complainant it will be difficult for us to know for certain the correct identity of the alleged suspect."


The sect practices polygamy in arranged marriage that often pair underage girls with older men. The faith believes the practice will brings glorification in heaven. The mainstream Mormon church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, does not practice polygamy.



They rounded up and forcibly took 400+ kids on a hotline tip?

Their tipster may not even exist. 

And, then take away the cell phones of some of the kids and the mothers (who are supposedly not in custody).

To top it all off, the fellow accused of the whole deal was found way early in the game and has voluntarily come forth and spoken with LEOs.  But has not been taken into custody because the hotline tip isn't solid or substantial enough to bring him in.

Solid enough to kidnap 400+ kids and deny them commo.  Not solid enough to bring in one man.  Riddle me that one.

WTF?  Can you say, "Salem witch hunt, boys & girls?"

I'd like to remind proponents of this action that it was initiated by a hotline tip, the tipster of which can't be found or ID'd beyond, "16YO girl who had a kid at 15."

But, we ought to be thankful for small favors.  At least they haven't become crispy critters.
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gunsmith

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #59 on: April 14, 2008, 03:45:15 AM »
Quote
They rounded up and forcibly took 400+ kids on a hotline tip?

Their tipster may not even exist. 

I've been very suspicious of that myself, Dale Barlow has been questioned and still hasn't been arrested.

A similar phone call was made is AZ but LE over there said "we won't go arrest people over a anonymous phone call"

Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."

HankB

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #60 on: April 14, 2008, 03:53:08 AM »
Quote
On Sunday, state officials enforced a judge's order to confiscate the cell phones of the women and children removed from the ranch.
On what legal basis does a judge have the authority to order legally-owned personal property stolen - yes, stolen - from people who are of legal age and not under arrest or charged with any crime?

What compelling reason does the state have that justifies these people being kept incommunicado?

I'm not a fan of this cult religion by any means, and anyone who has abused children needs to be hammered - hard.

But with every news story that comes out (even making due allowance for the "accuracy" of typical news stories) the actions of the authorities seem to become more, well, questionable.

To say the least.

(Almost two weeks have passed . . . and AFAIK, only a few minor charges have been filed, having to do with "interfering with an investigation" or some such.)

But, we ought to be thankful for small favors.  At least they haven't become crispy critters.
Hopefully there won't be an "unexplained fire" at the dormitory where the detainees are being kept, which will later be explained as a "suicide pact" or something.
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MechAg94

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #61 on: April 14, 2008, 05:18:18 AM »
I am sort of surprised they didn't just tap the cell phones. 

I think the rules for separating children and spouses in abuse situations are different from the normal rules.  I think CPS has its own set of rules, good or bad. 
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JohnBT

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #62 on: April 14, 2008, 06:21:37 AM »
"They rounded up and forcibly took 400+ kids on a hotline tip?"

Imagine the outcry if they hadn't and some or all of the children were being abused. I haven't read the state law, that state's, on what they are required to do in the case of reported abuse. I imagine they had to act if their law is like ours.

As far as the cell phones, I don't believe they are the property of the individuals. From what I've read the church does not allow the private ownership of property, real estate or otherwise.

And speaking of a fundamentalist church. There's nothing quite as fundamental these days as a cell phone I suppose. Nevermind.

John

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #63 on: April 14, 2008, 07:03:31 AM »
Silly me, I expect that when 400+ folks are rounded up, kept incommunicado, and not allowed to leave, the evidence that such is necessary ought be more substantive than a hotline tip from a teenager the authorities can not identify or produce.


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roo_ster

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hitbackfirst

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #64 on: April 14, 2008, 08:22:59 AM »
Quote
Imagine the outcry if they hadn't and some or all of the children were being abused.

Imagine the outcry if the Gestapo raided a religious compound, kidnapped over 400 children, and violated the Freedom of religion and the property rights of those who lived there. Oh wait...

MechAg94

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #65 on: April 14, 2008, 08:33:06 AM »
http://breakingnews.nypost.com/dynamic/stories/P/POLYGAMIST_RETREAT?SITE=NYNYP&SECTION=HOME

Looks like CPS will have to argue its case in court. 


How did this violate their Freedom of Religion?  Please explain that one. 
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MechAg94

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #66 on: April 14, 2008, 08:34:37 AM »
Here is the text. 
Quote
SAN ANGELO, Texas (AP) -- A court began laying the groundwork Monday to sort out the custody arrangements for hundreds of young children seized from a polygamist sect, with nearly four dozen lawyers seeking to represent the children in attendance.

State District Judge Barbara Walther held the hearing to prepare for Thursday's expected marathon session, when the state will plea for permanent custody of the 416 children taken early this month from the Eldorado ranch of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, a renegade Mormon sect.

Gary Banks, a lawyer representing the state Children's Protective Services, told the judge the state believes "there is a systematic process at the ranch near Eldorado at which children were exploited and sexually abused."

The children were rounded up and placed in temporary custody in a raid that began April 3 after a domestic violence hot line recorded a complaint from a 16-year-old girl. She said she was physically and sexually abused by her 50-year-old husband.

Walther was clearly struggling with how to organize what is believed to be the largest child-custody hearing in Texas history, and perhaps in the nation. Texas bar officials say more than 350 attorneys from across the state have volunteered to represent the children for free. Child welfare laws require each child in state custody to have an attorney.

"If I gave everybody five minutes, that would be 70 hours," Walther said, stressing a need for efficiency as well as the protection of the children's rights.

Three mothers of the children have appealed to Gov. Rick Perry for help in a letter the sect said was mailed to him on Saturday.

In the letter, a copy of which was obtained by The Associated Press, the mothers from the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints claim some of their children have become sick and even required hospitalization. They also say children have been questioned about things they know nothing about since they were placed in the legal custody of the state.

The one-page letter, signed by three women who claim they represent others, says about 15 mothers were away from the property when their children were removed. The mothers said they want Perry to examine the conditions in which the removed children have been placed.

"You would be appalled," the letter said. "Many of our children have become sick as a result of the conditions they have been placed in. Some have even had to be taken to the hospital. Our innocent children are continually being questioned on things they know nothing about. The physical examinations were horrifying to the children. The exposure to these conditions is traumatizing them."

Perry spokesman Robert Black said Monday that the letter hadn't yet arrived. Black also said the governor was being briefed daily on the situation but didn't plan to interfere with the work of state child welfare or law enforcement agencies.

Asked about claims that children were hospitalized, state Child Protective Services spokeswoman Marissa Gonzalez said she had not seen the letter and would have to review it before commenting. Officials have said that about a dozen children had chicken pox and that others needed prescription medications but hadn't said whether any were hospitalized.

The children are being housed in San Angelo's historic Fort Concho and at the nearby Wells Fargo pavilion. About 140 women from the ranch are also with the children, although they are not in state custody.

On Saturday, five FLDS women staying at the fort told Salt Lake City's Deseret News that the temporary shelter is cramped - cots, cribs and play pens are lined up side by side - and that many of the children are frightened.

An FLDS member who told the AP that his family members are among those inside the fort called the removal of phones a punishment.

"This was nothing more than retaliation of CPS to punish those who were disclosing what is really happening behind that wall of this concentration camp," said Don, who asked that only his first name be used because of the custody hearings.

Affidavits filed by child protection workers said they found a pattern of abuse at the Yearning for Zion ranch in Eldorado, about 45 miles south of San Angelo.

The 1,700-acre fenced ranch, a former game preserve, was bought by the FLDS in 2003. A number of large dormitory-style homes have been built, along with a small medical center, a cheese factory, a rock quarry, a water treatment plant and a towering, white limestone temple.

The FLDS practices polygamy in arranged marriage that often pair underage girls with older men. The faith believes the practice will brings glorification in heaven. The mainstream Mormon church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, does not practice polygamy.

---

Associated Press writer Tony Winton contributed to this report.
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The Annoyed Man

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #67 on: April 14, 2008, 08:43:13 AM »
>Pedophiles? AP and the rest of the MSM said the same thing about Koresh.<

And, from what I remember of the warrant, they were right.

 Not sure WHAT to think about this case. On the one hand, I do NOT like peds. On the other, I don't like legal protactions ignored because a group is unpopular...

MechAg94

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #68 on: April 14, 2008, 08:54:02 AM »
I thought they just said Koresh has a few wives, but that was mostly stuff from people who left the group.  I also thought that was hearsay, but that the warrant was actually for illegal weapons. 

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hitbackfirst

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #69 on: April 14, 2008, 09:01:06 AM »
Quote
How did this violate their Freedom of Religion?  Please explain that one.

Gladly. Freedom of Religion is one of the foundational principals of our Country. The reason this compound was raided was because the (religious) practices of its inhabitants violated the public's current perception of how people should live. Just because girls under 18 were getting married does not mean anyone is a pedophile! Girls have been married at young ages in most cultures for thousands of years. It is not Government's prerogative to outlaw deeply held religious practices with the stroke of a pen, but most people stand mutely by unless it is their own religious practices that are suddenly outlawed. These people have the right to live on their land in any way they choose. If a specific allegation of abuse is leveled, then that allegation should be investigated, not used as an excuse to kidnap 416 children and keep them from their parents. Just imagine the outcry if 416 Muslim children had been taken from their parents and not allowed to see them. These abuses have only been tolerated by the general public because the religion involved is small and different. 

MechAg94

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #70 on: April 14, 2008, 09:32:30 AM »
I'm sorry, I don't think anyone's freedom of religion means they can automatically bypass laws protecting minors.  In Texas, the age of consent is 18 I think.  Some states have it set lower.  They could have lived in another state.  They know/knew the rules and could have sued on those grounds if they chose.

I believe that it is common CPS practice to separate a child from suspected parents in order to question the child in a neutral fashion separated from parents who might influence them.  This is just a much bigger scale and takes some time.  The last link above shows that CPS is having to argue their case in court. 
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #71 on: April 14, 2008, 10:09:01 AM »
Polygamy is against the law, as is statuatory rape.

"Religious freedom" does not apply.
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hitbackfirst

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #72 on: April 14, 2008, 10:15:39 AM »
Quote
Polygamy is against the law, as is statutory rape.

"Religious freedom" does not apply.

And what happens when one of your religious practices is declared to be 'against the law'? Since when does Government have the right to outlaw practices which are integral to ones religion?

Quote
I believe that it is common CPS practice to separate a child from suspected parents in order to question the child in a neutral fashion separated from parents who might influence them.

No evidence existed that those 416 children were in danger. What right does CPS or anyone else have to separate children from their parents without strong evidence indicating immediate harm could come to them if they are not separated?

HankB

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #73 on: April 14, 2008, 10:20:00 AM »
Polygamy is against the law, as is statuatory rape.
Very true. In particular, rapists - of any stripe! - need to be punished.

We're almost two weeks into this now.

Hundreds of people have essentially been imprisoned and held incommunicado.

How many polygamy or rape charges have been filed?
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MechAg94

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #74 on: April 14, 2008, 10:22:24 AM »
Well, it looks like CPS is going into court hearing now so we'll see.

Just because the media doesn't know what evidence CPS or the police have doesn't mean there is none.  I don't know and neither to any of the rest of us.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge