Author Topic: Philosophy in the Bible  (Read 35480 times)

roo_ster

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Re: Philosophy in the Bible
« Reply #150 on: July 28, 2009, 10:43:12 AM »
Fistful: there is a condition (I do not remember exactly its name) where children are born without most of their brain. Customarily, the child in question is dispatched. Clearly these are not human beings, as they lack a brain.

I would argue an embryo at a pre-brain stage is also not a human being, since it lacks a brain and a personality. A personality is not a function of having a human DNA - twins have equivalent DNA and entirely different personalities.

I can't recall the condition, but I have encountered it before.  Here it is:
Anencephaly, born without a forebrain.  They have the other brain bits, though it does not do them much good.

I would hesitate to read them out of humanity, however, since we don't read out of humanity other infants missing organs, limbs, or with other birth defects.

Since anenchephalic infants die within hours/days of being born, there is no need to kill them.
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makattak

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Re: Philosophy in the Bible
« Reply #151 on: July 28, 2009, 10:44:55 AM »
I can't recall the condition, but I have encountered it before.  Here it is:
Anencephaly, born without a forebrain.  They have the other brain bits, though it does not do them much good.

I would hesitate to read them out of humanity, however, since we don't read out of humanity other infants missing organs, limbs, or with other birth defects.

Since anenchephalic infants die within hours/days of being born, there is no need to kill them.

Alright, we don't have to kill them, but since they aren't human, we can at least experiment on them before they die, right?

After all, my enlightened self-interest KNOWS I will never be an anencephalic infant and we could learn a LOT be experimenting on them.

Through an enlightened self-interest perspective, how could you call this wrong?
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

mellestad

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Re: Philosophy in the Bible
« Reply #152 on: July 28, 2009, 12:15:09 PM »
Incorrect.  It was an assertion.  Here are some more assertions.  None falsifiable.
"Passion for passion, an evangelical Christian and I may be evenly matched. But we are not equally fundamentalist. The true scientist, however passionately he may 'believe', in evolution for example, knows exactly what would change his mind: evidence! The fundamentalist knows that nothing will."
"We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further."

Your statement about the universality of Abrahamic religious values is clearly more than an assertion of opinion.  Unless you are saying your statement has no more weight than an individuals personal opinion.  And I would agree with you :)

1. If you mix up your terminology, that's understandable.  The standard of "enlightened self-interest" is thoroughly indistinguishable from what you earlier called "pure selfishness." 
2. After all, the "enlightenment" is coming from the self, so what is morally acceptable is not fixed.  It cannot be.  Thus, enlightened self-interest, as a moral guide, is most useful as a way of justifying whatever seems right, while wrapping oneself in the flag of reason. 
3. Ah, yes.  The threadbare excuse of "viability."  As previously observed, justifying whatever seems right, wrapping oneself in a sham of reason.  If your idea of "reason" is to provide for the viable, and kill the not-yet-viable, then you may need more training in reason. 
Who said anything about conception?  The civilized, educated person values the life of the embryo as his own, because the life of the embryo IS as his own.  Not because of conception, but because both are individual human organisms.  Clumps of cells, if you will.  If you wish to be pre-scientific, you can deny that.  But we have this stuff now called DNA, genetics, etc; which informs us that a clump of cells is not just a clump of cells.

1. Lol, you are right, I did goof up my terminology!  To clear it up in my own words, a negative pure selfishness is based on short term results without looking at the wider implications, like engaging in rape because you feel like it.  Enlightened self interest is still selfish, but it includes the realization that my best interest is best served by making sure my community is stable and happy.  And since the world community is becoming so close, the definition of community has a tendency to be very inclusive, since my happiness can be directly damaged by someone across the world.

2. Ah, but my secular moral system is evidence based!  If whatever I think is right turns out to be wrong, I have a mechanism to change that behavior.

3. The thing is, a human without a brain is not a human.  By your definition if I set fire to the blueprints for an unbuilt house, I would be guilty of the murder of the people who might someday live inside that house.  DNA is simply an instruction set for a self-replicating robot that we call a human.  To say anything else you just have to rely on the "fact" that a human gets a soul at the moment of conception, and that soul is valuable.  OK.  So what happens to all those human beings that are aborted by the body naturally before the first trimester?  It is very common.  Is heaven full of 1 week old embryos?

Alright, we don't have to kill them, but since they aren't human, we can at least experiment on them before they die, right?
After all, my enlightened self-interest KNOWS I will never be an anencephalic infant and we could learn a LOT be experimenting on them.
Through an enlightened self-interest perspective, how could you call this wrong?

As I said, without a functioning brain, how is that a human being?  Again, it comes back to the concept of a soul, which is just another idea that cannot be proven or dis-proven.  Can you make a rational case for its existence?

Do I advocate testing on them?  No, since I imagine that would cause the parents a good deal of distress.  However, if that baby is born without a brain and we could remove its heart to save an otherwise healthy baby, wouldn't that be noble?  I would hope that if I were in that situation, I would make that emotional sacrifice.

I can't recall the condition, but I have encountered it before.  Here it is:
Anencephaly, born without a forebrain.  They have the other brain bits, though it does not do them much good.
I would hesitate to read them out of humanity, however, since we don't read out of humanity other infants missing organs, limbs, or with other birth defects.
Since anenchephalic infants die within hours/days of being born, there is no need to kill them.

Again, I think there really is a difference between a leg and a brain.  If I remove your brain, you cease to exist as a human being.  You will *never* come back, no matter what.  If I remove your leg, you continue (although, perhaps not as quickly).

They are still a part of morality though, because of the impact that child still has on its parents.  That must be taken into consideration.

(Edit: In a continuation of 3. If God selectively denies souls to embryos who He knows will not be carried to term, why wouldn't He deny souls to embryos selectively aborted?  If he gives all embryos souls regardless of what happens to them, then that raises some pretty interesting questions about the afterlife.  Maybe souls have a return policy where they are recycled if not returned within nine months?)
(Third Edit, cripes!: If souls attached to the unborn simply go to heaven, then is the idea that you really don't need a physical brain or body for consciousness?  Or do the souls hang out in heaven in their current state of development?  The idea that thought and reason does not need a brain seems fairly easily tested.  But I guess you could just say, "God will take care of those details, have faith.")
(Second Edit: I was trying to read anti-atheist stuff on that Appollo...apposs...whatever site, and it wanted me to create a login, and then it wanted me to pay for access to the articles.  Not cool!  Is there a free way to get those articles?)
« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 12:35:57 PM by mellestad »

roo_ster

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Re: Philosophy in the Bible
« Reply #153 on: July 28, 2009, 01:04:48 PM »
3. The thing is, a human without a brain is not a human.  By your definition if I set fire to the blueprints for an unbuilt house, I would be guilty of the murder of the people who might someday live inside that house.  DNA is simply an instruction set for a self-replicating robot that we call a human.  To say anything else you just have to rely on the "fact" that a human gets a soul at the moment of conception, and that soul is valuable.  OK.  So what happens to all those human beings that are aborted by the body naturally before the first trimester?  It is very common.  Is heaven full of 1 week old embryos?

As I said, without a functioning brain, how is that a human being?  Again, it comes back to the concept of a soul, which is just another idea that cannot be proven or dis-proven.  Can you make a rational case for its existence?

Again, I think there really is a difference between a leg and a brain.  If I remove your brain, you cease to exist as a human being.  You will *never* come back, no matter what.  If I remove your leg, you continue (although, perhaps not as quickly)...

I think there are some serious problems with this, logic and science-wise.

The infants in question do have brains, just not all the brain sub-structures one usually finds.  What they lack is a forebrain.  All the other brainy bits exist. 

Also, if such a living & breathing infant is not a human, what is it?  A horse?  A rock?  A turnip?  I would suggest they are malformed human.

Then there is the case of the fully formed human (brain & all) who loses their brain via decapitation or some other mechanism.  Yes, they are no longer alive, but that is a change in state, not a change in typology.  They have not just been transformed into a horse, tree, or garden trowel.  They are a dead human.

Your human/not-human logic has been used in the past to justify all manner of heinous acts.  I am not saying you will follow your logic to its end, but many others have and do, with disastrous results for a whole bunch of folks.


Quote
...Enlightened self interest is still selfish, but it includes the realization that my best interest is best served by making sure my community is stable and happy.  And since the world community is becoming so close, the definition of community has a tendency to be very inclusive, since my happiness can be directly damaged by someone across the world.

Well, if one is an opportunist that can profit from instability and/or discontent, using your logic of enlightened self-interest, that one would be operating within the bounds of your very same code to perform completely opposite actions given identical circumstances.

Such examples might be would-be warlords like one finds by the dozens in Africa or, perhaps, Progressive demagogues that agitate for a larger slice of pie with threats of instability if their demands are not met.

Truly, sounds less a moral code than mere expedience:
Based on or marked by a concern for self-interest rather than principle; self-interested.
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roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
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MechAg94

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Re: Philosophy in the Bible
« Reply #154 on: July 28, 2009, 02:24:27 PM »
IMO, that is part of the problem with an "arbitrary" moral code based on some form of logic and reason.  To set it up, you need a solid foundation.  Christianity has that in the form of the Bible which followers can go back and read and say "Hey, you are justifying all this stuff, but it clearly says here you shouldn't do that."  At some point, any secular system needs a solid foundation to hold it in place and keep it from drifting.  Without that, it just becomes an arbitrary system that can be used to justify anything.  And the other problem with that is that a complete moral system includes not just laws, but lots of social/behavioral rules that can't or shouldn't be made law.  There is more to moral behavior than just "don't rob, rape, and murder". 

Religions alone have enough problems with disagreements on meanings, interpretations, and people using scripture to justify evil actions.  IMO, with a secular system, it would be 10 times worse. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

mellestad

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Re: Philosophy in the Bible
« Reply #155 on: July 28, 2009, 03:09:15 PM »
I think there are some serious problems with this, logic and science-wise.
The infants in question do have brains, just not all the brain sub-structures one usually finds.  What they lack is a forebrain.  All the other brainy bits exist. 
Also, if such a living & breathing infant is not a human, what is it?  A horse?  A rock?  A turnip?  I would suggest they are malformed human.
Then there is the case of the fully formed human (brain & all) who loses their brain via decapitation or some other mechanism.  Yes, they are no longer alive, but that is a change in state, not a change in typology.  They have not just been transformed into a horse, tree, or garden trowel.  They are a dead human.
Your human/not-human logic has been used in the past to justify all manner of heinous acts.  I am not saying you will follow your logic to its end, but many others have and do, with disastrous results for a whole bunch of folks.
Well, if one is an opportunist that can profit from instability and/or discontent, using your logic of enlightened self-interest, that one would be operating within the bounds of your very same code to perform completely opposite actions given identical circumstances.
Such examples might be would-be warlords like one finds by the dozens in Africa or, perhaps, Progressive demagogues that agitate for a larger slice of pie with threats of instability if their demands are not met.
Truly, sounds less a moral code than mere expedience:

"Anencephaly is a defect in the closure of the neural tube during fetal development. The neural tube is a narrow channel that folds and closes between the 3rd and 4th weeks of pregnancy to form the brain and spinal cord of the embryo. Anencephaly occurs when the "cephalic" or head end of the neural tube fails to close, resulting in the absence of a major portion of the brain, skull, and scalp. Infants with this disorder are born without a forebrain (the front part of the brain) and a cerebrum (the thinking and coordinating part of the brain). The remaining brain tissue is often exposed--not covered by bone or skin. A baby born with anencephaly is usually blind, deaf, unconscious, and unable to feel pain. Although some individuals with anencephaly may be born with a rudimentary brain stem, the lack of a functioning cerebrum permanently rules out the possibility of ever gaining consciousness. Reflex actions such as breathing and responses to sound or touch may occur."

They are also missing the cerebrum, which means all they have is a brain stem.  The brain stem controls breathing, heartbeat and some pain response.  But there is no "person" in there.  There will never be a person in there.  You can call what is left over whatever you like, it will never make it a living, functioning human being.

Again, you seem to be saying that without a Biblical moral system genocide and travesty is the natural outcome.  I simply do not see evidence of that.  China has cities dating to 4800BC, when the Jews were still living in huts.  They had no concept of your god, and their society was not a giant ball of human travesty.

Your example is perfect!  How long do you think the average life span of an African warlord is?  How happy do you think he is?  How likely is it that his children will thrive after the next dictator murders him?

In a society where human beings cooperate for mutual benefit, the result is superior for all players.  Even with the example someone like Stalin or Hitler, isn't that like playing the lottery?  Sure...one guy out of millions makes it to the top, but how likely is that to happen?  Does the cost-benefit stand up to reason?  I don't think it does.  In a peaceful, content society where neighbors help neighbors, how likely is success?  Very high.

IMO, that is part of the problem with an "arbitrary" moral code based on some form of logic and reason.  To set it up, you need a solid foundation.  Christianity has that in the form of the Bible which followers can go back and read and say "Hey, you are justifying all this stuff, but it clearly says here you shouldn't do that."  At some point, any secular system needs a solid foundation to hold it in place and keep it from drifting.  Without that, it just becomes an arbitrary system that can be used to justify anything.  And the other problem with that is that a complete moral system includes not just laws, but lots of social/behavioral rules that can't or shouldn't be made law.  There is more to moral behavior than just "don't rob, rape, and murder". 
Religions alone have enough problems with disagreements on meanings, interpretations, and people using scripture to justify evil actions.  IMO, with a secular system, it would be 10 times worse. 

It isn't arbitrary, it is based out successful outcomes, or bad outcomes.  It grows, changes and adapts and hopefully becomes more effective.  It's foundation is the example of human history, religious or not.  Of course morality is more than don't rob, rape and murder, that is the whole point!  If I have not made that clear by now, I am at a loss for how to express myself.  Our modern morality is based on the changes brought by philosophic thought and secular morality.  If it was not, you would all act exactly like orthodox Jews.

Your "static" laws about morality in the Bible are not static.  Slavery is now considered immoral.  It was not when the Bible was written.  Such examples are common, because "morality" is largely a social construct that changes over time.  Those issues that would quickly destroy society will always be immoral, such as murder.  Humans cannot function any other way.

Again, the secular system is somehow worse.  People apply logic and reason to the moral "laws" in the Bible all the time, and it evolves.  Slavery.  Woman's rights.  Food preparation.  Governmental revolution.  The institution of the church.  People already pick and choose what morality they believe in at will.  Removing God simply removes the barriers that hinder progress.

The only argument I can make for religious morality is that I can see situations where religious fundamentalism slows progress, and sometimes slowing progress is good, because it helps identify bad ideas before they become widespread.


mellestad

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Re: Philosophy in the Bible
« Reply #156 on: July 28, 2009, 04:37:21 PM »
Here is another nice turn of phrase, that deals with the accusation that secular societies lead to crimes against humanity:

Sam Harris:
"The problem with fascism and communism, however, is not that they are too critical of religion; the problem is that they are too much like religions. Such regimes are dogmatic to the core and generally give rise to personality cults that are indistinguishable from cults of religious hero worship. Auschwitz, the gulag and the killing fields were not examples of what happens when human beings reject religious dogma; they are examples of political, racial and nationalistic dogma run amok. There is no society in human history that ever suffered because its people became too reasonable."

Like I said, a proper secular morality is not dogmatic, will accept change, and is capable of self-analysis without being defensive.  Because the system is based on evidence, evidence can be used to change it.

For example, I believe A, but you believe A is wrong.  If you can provide strong evidence that A is wrong, or that B is a better answer, I have to change my opinion.  This whole debate boils down to that.  Our discussion about abortion is a good example.  I even stated that I am unsure about the ethics of late term abortion.  I am not dogmatic about it, and I would be perfectly willing to change my opinion with proper evidence that early stage abortion has a clear negative effect on a society, or the individual.

Maybe you could try to show that when a young woman has an abortion, it statistically puts her future children at risk of child abuse, or her lifetime earnings are lowered, or she is more likely to be involved in crime, or her life expectancy is lowered, or maybe the subjective happiness of her future children, compared to her peers in similar situations who had children the first time.  Those examples would help me change my opinion (however, if you research them my suspicion is that they will support my argument, not yours).  So would some sort of test that can define a point where an embryo meets some sort of objective criteria for viability, or life, that does not rely on the concept of a soul or divine spark which cannot be verified.

Sorry to make two posts, my first has been up for long enough I didn't want it to be missed.

roo_ster

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Re: Philosophy in the Bible
« Reply #157 on: July 28, 2009, 04:55:29 PM »
They are also missing the cerebrum, which means all they have is a brain stem.  The brain stem controls breathing, heartbeat and some pain response.  But there is no "person" in there.  There will never be a person in there.  You can call what is left over whatever you like, it will never make it a living, functioning human being.

Huh?  It is living and breathing.  It was birthed from a human.  All objective science shows it being human.  And now, you want to introduce the subjective concept of "personhood?"

Nah, I think I'll just stick with what science can prove and shy away from such subjective standards when it comes to defining humanity.  It may not be in my self-interest to do so, given the ability to harvest stem cells & other body parts from severely malformed newborns, but the science is backed by empirical data and sound, repeatable methodology.

Again, if it is not human, what is it?  Biology has a taxonomy used to classify organisms and show their interrelatedness.  Where does this not-human reside in the taxonomy?

Also, you write of a "functioning human being." Do you believe that lack of particular functions remove one from the human to the other-than-human state?  You might find an ally in RAH:
"Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes bathe, and not make messes in the house."
----Robert A. Heinlein

The opposite of science is not faith, it is pseudo-science.  I place a great store in empirical science/data and the methodology used to derive it.  Not just because my livelihood depends on it, but because the uses pseudo-science has been put to the last 200 years, usually nefarious, many times infamous.

Perhaps what you have called "enlightened self interest" is less a moral code and more an amoral code?  Meaning: it has no grounding in anything, to include science, and is more a means to an objective than a guide to conscience.

Again, you seem to be saying that without a Biblical moral system genocide and travesty is the natural outcome.  I simply do not see evidence of that.  China has cities dating to 4800BC, when the Jews were still living in huts.  They had no concept of your god, and their society was not a giant ball of human travesty.

Again, "huh?"  Where did I mention religion or Christianity in the post?

Well, if you look at the way the Chinese from back then treated humans,  had such treatment applied to your own self, you'd think it a travesty.

Your example is perfect!  How long do you think the average life span of an African warlord is?  How happy do you think he is?  How likely is it that his children will thrive after the next dictator murders him?

Robert Mugabe has ruled Zimbabwe since 1980.  His children and wife have access to his overseas funds and he owns properties outside of Africa.  He & his will do alright.

Muammar Gaddafi has ruled Libya since 1969.  He has a whole bunch of kids, money, and plenty of property outside of Libya.

Hosni Mubarak has ruled Egypt since 1981.  Like above, his kids will do fine after he is gone.

Idi Amin rule Uganda fro ~10 years and then left and spent the rest of his life in luxury in Saudi Arabia.

Omar Bongo ruled Gabon from 1967-2009.  He had 30+ children, so I doubt all of them will enjoy hte riches he accumulated...but some goodly number will.

I could go on, but there are many that rule a goodly number of years, accumulate wealth, and secure the fortunes of their progeny.  Enough to make it worth the risk by many sharp-witted and ruthless folk to emulate them.

Here is another nice turn of phrase, that deals with the accusation that secular societies lead to crimes against humanity:

Sam Harris:
"The problem with fascism and communism, however, is not that they are too critical of religion; the problem is that they are too much like religions. Such regimes are dogmatic to the core and generally give rise to personality cults that are indistinguishable from cults of religious hero worship. Auschwitz, the gulag and the killing fields were not examples of what happens when human beings reject religious dogma; they are examples of political, racial and nationalistic dogma run amok. There is no society in human history that ever suffered because its people became too reasonable."

Like I said, a proper secular morality is not dogmatic, will accept change, and is capable of self-analysis without being defensive.  Because the system is based on evidence, evidence can be used to change it.

Sorry, but Sam Harris is a pinhead who displays historical ignorance in the literary equivalent of neon lights and gets lauded for it, for some reason beyond my ken.

Adolf Hitler was not tied to any particular political philosophy and changed policy as it became advantageous to do so, be it economic, social, whatever.  The Nazis hated homosexuals, right, what with the pink triangle & such?  Well, not originally.  The leader of the SA and his subordinates were mostly homosexual.  When they became political threats and AH wanted them taken out, things changed, and out came the long knives. 

Lenin, too, was to analyze the situation and change his policy accordingly.  A fine example being the re-privatization of some farmland to avert famines caused by collectivization.  That was contrary to Marxist-Leninist dogma, but he did it anyway.
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roo_ster

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mellestad

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Re: Philosophy in the Bible
« Reply #158 on: July 28, 2009, 05:16:19 PM »
1. Huh?  It is living and breathing.  It was birthed from a human.  All objective science shows it being human.  And now, you want to introduce the subjective concept of "personhood?"
Nah, I think I'll just stick with what science can prove and shy away from such subjective standards when it comes to defining humanity.  It may not be in my self-interest to do so, given the ability to harvest stem cells & other body parts from severely malformed newborns, but the science is backed by empirical data and sound, repeatable methodology.
Again, if it is not human, what is it?  Biology has a taxonomy used to classify organisms and show their interrelatedness.  Where does this not-human reside in the taxonomy?
Also, you write of a "functioning human being." Do you believe that lack of particular functions remove one from the human to the other-than-human state?  You might find an ally in RAH:
"Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes bathe, and not make messes in the house."
----Robert A. Heinlein
2. The opposite of science is not faith, it is pseudo-science.  I place a great store in empirical science/data and the methodology used to derive it.  Not just because my livelihood depends on it, but because the uses pseudo-science has been put to the last 200 years, usually nefarious, many times infamous.
3. Perhaps what you have called "enlightened self interest" is less a moral code and more an amoral code?  Meaning: it has no grounding in anything, to include science, and is more a means to an objective than a guide to conscience.
4. Again, "huh?"  Where did I mention religion or Christianity in the post?
5. Well, if you look at the way the Chinese from back then treated humans,  had such treatment applied to your own self, you'd think it a travesty.
6. Robert Mugabe has ruled Zimbabwe since 1980.  His children and wife have access to his overseas funds and he owns properties outside of Africa.  He & his will do alright.
Muammar Gaddafi has ruled Libya since 1969.  He has a whole bunch of kids, money, and plenty of property outside of Libya.
Hosni Mubarak has ruled Egypt since 1981.  Like above, his kids will do fine after he is gone.
Idi Amin rule Uganda fro ~10 years and then left and spent the rest of his life in luxury in Saudi Arabia.
Omar Bongo ruled Gabon from 1967-2009.  He had 30+ children, so I doubt all of them will enjoy hte riches he accumulated...but some goodly number will.
I could go on, but there are many that rule a goodly number of years, accumulate wealth, and secure the fortunes of their progeny.  Enough to make it worth the risk by many sharp-witted and ruthless folk to emulate them.
7. Sorry, but Sam Harris is a pinhead who displays historical ignorance in the literary equivalent of neon lights and gets lauded for it, for some reason beyond my ken.
8. Adolf Hitler was not tied to any particular political philosophy and changed policy as it became advantageous to do so, be it economic, social, whatever.  The Nazis hated homosexuals, right, what with the pink triangle & such?  Well, not originally.  The leader of the SA and his subordinates were mostly homosexual.  When they became political threats and AH wanted them taken out, things changed, and out came the long knives. 
9. Lenin, too, was to analyze the situation and change his policy accordingly.  A fine example being the re-privatization of some farmland to avert famines caused by collectivization.  That was contrary to Marxist-Leninist dogma, but he did it anyway.

1. If you take away human thought, all we are is another ape.  Even with human thought, we are just another ape, but at least we are more advanced in some way.  Yes, I will come right out and say it.  A human being without a brain cannot be considered a functional human.  That statement makes perfect sense to me.  I cannot see how lack of brain function compares to a missing kidney.  Without our brains we are nothing more than a lobotomized chimpanzee.

2. The difference is your belief in empirical data checks out at a certain point.  Mine does not.

3. So my moral code is actually amoral.  I would appreciate examples.

4. The entire debate has been about religious morality vs. secular morality.  Have we not been having the same discussion?  Time and time again people are saying that without a religious moral code, societies and individuals turns anarchic, but no-one is showing any evidence of that.

5. I would be horrified to be treated like a Jewish person during that time period.  All cultural morality has adapted, you will get no argument from me there!  I was pointing out that Christian morality is not unique in the world.  The ten commandments were proceeded by Hammurabi's laws.  The Golden rule from Jesus was proceeded by Confucian thought. (I am not claiming that Christian laws are copies, I doubt that Asian culture had any influence on Jesus.)

6. So, how many people died for the same goal that those ten people achieved?  How many brilliant, ruthless people failed what they accomplished?  Tens of thousands?  Hundreds of thousands?

7. Please respond to the idea directly instead of criticizing the person.  Attacking his personality is not constructive to this debate.

8. The entire point of the quote was for this situation.  Hitler and Stalin and his ilk did what they did for naked power, and both had strong nationalism and a cult of personality.  They operated like gods, or at least holy men.  Posters everywhere, forced public devotion...just like North Korea.  That is a replacement for religion with a human at the head, not secular morality.  How well did that work out for Hitler?  And modern evidence suggests Stalin was poisoned.  They were dictators. Secular morality tends to be democratic and personal.

9. Same as 8.  I would point out that privatizing farmland has failed again and again.  That seems applicable to my flexible secular morality just fine.

roo_ster

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Re: Philosophy in the Bible
« Reply #159 on: July 28, 2009, 07:34:19 PM »
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A human being without a brain cannot be considered a functional human.

That is logical.

This, not so much:
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Without our brains we are nothing more than a lobotomized chimpanzee.

So, seriously brain-damaged or otherwise cognitively disabled humans are lobotomized chimpanzees?  Got any science to back that up?

You previously wrote something to the effect that your code does not have as a basis the concept of human dignity or that human life has a value in and of itself:
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When did I claim human rights were inherent to our species?
Why are you reluctant to call a brain-injured human "human?"  If a human has no inherent rights, why the need to call what is obviously a human, something else?  Most who so deny the humanity of the obviously human want to do something to the not-human that would otherwise be prohibited.  I am not accusing you of this motive, but I am curious as to the repeated denial of humanity to the cognitively malformed or injured.

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3. So my moral code is actually amoral.  I would appreciate examples.

4. The entire debate has been about religious morality vs. secular morality.  Have we not been having the same discussion?  Time and time again people are saying that without a religious moral code, societies and individuals turns anarchic, but no-one is showing any evidence of that.

I mentioned faith in my first post WRT your code to demonstrate:
1. Faith does not detract from one's ability to interrogate the material world
2. Demonstrate most secular moral codes have a basis in faith

I have endeavored to inquire about and analyze your professed moral code on its own secular terms: logic, science, history, etc. 

Honestly, I don't find "enlightened self interest" holds up under scrutiny as a moral code. 

It fails the science test when it denies biological taxonomy of the animal kingdom.  It fails the logic test when it can be used by two different moral agents to come up with diametrically opposed actions given identical inputs (save the agents).  It fails the history test if all it can offer is re-heated Sam Harris's historical ignorance/mendacity (Harris's failings are not yours, but all his own).

What we have been able to ferret out is that "enlightened self-interest" is a means or approach to self-aggrandizement, not a code of morality or system of ethics.  "Enlightened" as you have described it is merely thinking through the consequences of actions further than the immediate gain, so unintended consequences don't bite one in the backside whilst pursuing one's self-interest. 

The limit on behavior is not a principle of any sort, but a cost/benefit analysis.  That is neither moral nor immoral.  Rather it is amoral, as morality does not enter the equation.

I do cost/benefit analysis and analysis of alternatives every work day.  There is, frankly, no moral content to 999/1000 of them.   Dollars, materials, manufacturability, measures of effectiveness/performance, reliability, etc.  It an amoral calculus.



One last thing...

Your continual insistence that warlordism/dictatorship/etc. do not pay or are somehow doomed to failure is curious.  History teaches otherwise, as for most of history humans were ruled by despots.  Despots who found dynasties, subjugate their fellow man, and (to all extents and purposes) "get away with it."

Our current relative liberty and prosperity are the exception, not the rule in human history.

Heck, history celebrates the bloodiest & most murderous of them: Alexander the Great, Napoleon, Frederick the Great, Charlemagne, Genghis Khan, Cyrus, etc.  It is only the tyrants that are in living memory that we call evil, instead of "Great" or "military genius."

IOW, murder does pay, if you are smart & active enough and can mange to to it wholesale.

Perhaps it is that truth ^^^ that is part of the reason religiously-inspired Western moral codes inveigh against such will to power....and that the death/dying of Christian morality in the West ushered in the most barbaric and murderous regimes the Earth has ever seen.
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mellestad

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Re: Philosophy in the Bible
« Reply #160 on: July 28, 2009, 09:31:19 PM »
1. That is logical.
This, not so much:
So, seriously brain-damaged or otherwise cognitively disabled humans are lobotomized chimpanzees?  Got any science to back that up?
2. You previously wrote something to the effect that your code does not have as a basis the concept of human dignity or that human life has a value in and of itself:Why are you reluctant to call a brain-injured human "human?"  If a human has no inherent rights, why the need to call what is obviously a human, something else?  Most who so deny the humanity of the obviously human want to do something to the not-human that would otherwise be prohibited.  I am not accusing you of this motive, but I am curious as to the repeated denial of humanity to the cognitively malformed or injured.

3.  I mentioned faith in my first post WRT your code to demonstrate:
    1. Faith does not detract from one's ability to interrogate the material world
4.  2. Demonstrate most secular moral codes have a basis in faith

I have endeavored to inquire about and analyze your professed moral code on its own secular terms: logic, science, history, etc. 

Honestly, I don't find "enlightened self interest" holds up under scrutiny as a moral code. 

5. It fails the science test when it denies biological taxonomy of the animal kingdom. 

6. It fails the logic test when it can be used by two different moral agents to come up with diametrically opposed actions given identical inputs (save the agents).  It fails the history test if all it can offer is re-heated Sam Harris's historical ignorance/mendacity (Harris's failings are not yours, but all his own).

7. What we have been able to ferret out is that "enlightened self-interest" is a means or approach to self-aggrandizement, not a code of morality or system of ethics.  "Enlightened" as you have described it is merely thinking through the consequences of actions further than the immediate gain, so unintended consequences don't bite one in the backside whilst pursuing one's self-interest. 
The limit on behavior is not a principle of any sort, but a cost/benefit analysis.  That is neither moral nor immoral.  Rather it is amoral, as morality does not enter the equation.
I do cost/benefit analysis and analysis of alternatives every work day.  There is, frankly, no moral content to 999/1000 of them.   Dollars, materials, manufacturability, measures of effectiveness/performance, reliability, etc.  It an amoral calculus.

8. One last thing...
Your continual insistence that warlordism/dictatorship/etc. do not pay or are somehow doomed to failure is curious.  History teaches otherwise, as for most of history humans were ruled by despots.  Despots who found dynasties, subjugate their fellow man, and (to all extents and purposes) "get away with it."
Our current relative liberty and prosperity are the exception, not the rule in human history.
Heck, history celebrates the bloodiest & most murderous of them: Alexander the Great, Napoleon, Frederick the Great, Charlemagne, Genghis Khan, Cyrus, etc.  It is only the tyrants that are in living memory that we call evil, instead of "Great" or "military genius."
IOW, murder does pay, if you are smart & active enough and can mange to to it wholesale.

9. Perhaps it is that truth ^^^ that is part of the reason religiously-inspired Western moral codes inveigh against such will to power....and that the death/dying of Christian morality in the West ushered in the most barbaric and murderous regimes the Earth has ever seen.


1. Remove someone's brain.  Run any test of cognition you want.  I am honestly not sure what you want me to say, it seems very obvious to me.  You made a point about scientific classification of a human earlier, but I cannot see how that is anything but purposefully misinterpreting my point.

2. Again, I think this is a misinterpretation.  Yes, they are "human".  No, they are not a conscious "being".  They are a husk.  A body without a brain is no more deserving special privileges than a human corpse.  And we are clearly not discussing anything except brain removal or death, so trying to attach my stance to a simple "injury" is not fair.

3. As long as you accept the fact that all naturally observable phenomenon are the result of natural law, I never disagreed with that.  The danger is when you attribute the physical to the divine.  Like miracles.  I have stated point blank that as long as you accept natural law, religion is not a deterrent to science.

4. And I think I have demonstrated that religious morality is nothing more than secular morality with a wrapping paper.  I have demonstrated that religious morality is not a static concept, even inside a particular religion or denomination.  I have demonstrated that your Christian religious beliefs are not unique to Christianity.  And I don't think you have demonstrated your point.  You have pointed out that secular morality shares aspects with Christian morality.  Well, Islam shares with Christianity.  Wicca shares with Christianity.  Zoroastrianism shares with Christianity.  To me, this makes sense because, as I have said again and again, morality is a result of what works in a society.  It is not surprising that similar moralities pop up in the world.  What would be surprising is if the exact same moralities popped up anywhere.  But they don't, do they? 

5. I don't even know what you mean.  I looked up the term, and I still don't.  Maybe you could explain in layperson terms?

6. That would only be a reason for failure if I claimed there was a universal morality, which I do not.  Human thought is a product of experience, people usually have unique experience, so...I don't know why I would argue your point.  Again, this explains why religious morality throughout human history is similar, but never identical.  The creators of moral codes are not the same person or society, so they differ.  Your point (or maybe someone else, pardon me if I mistook another post for yours) was that "Christian" morality was universal.  I honestly find that statement flatly incorrect, ethnocentric and easily disproved.  So many societies have existed with contradicting religious moral codes that are non-Christian it is not a matter for debate.  If "God" created a specific moral code, why is it that the only civilization who followed it was the one he spoke to directly, which happened to be a specific ethnic group?  The idea is simply silly.  Explain to an American Indian why he believes in spirits because his ancestors rejected the teachings of someone they never met.

7. Cost-benefit analysis is a fair comparison.  I think your point is simply semantics though, or am I mistaken?

8. OK, I will do this again.  Realistically, what would happen if I tried to conquer the world?  Or murder people?  Or become a dictator?  Or rape someone?  *Realistically*?  You seem to be saying it is in my best interest to do all of those things.  How could that possibly be in my best interest (Edit: by my own moral code, you are not saying that based on your morality, of course!)?  My chances at success would be so slim, that I might as well place my happiness on winning the lottery.  How does that make sense, in a cost-benefit analysis?  If I could get one straight answer from this whole point, this would be it.  You are literally saying that because a handful of people were successful in doing something destructive, that I should do my best to emulate them.  I would be stupid to try such a thing.  In the right circumstance, would I do something horrible?  Of course.  If I had to torture someone to death to save my family, I might consider it.  But your equation about the possible benefits of destructive behavior is off by a huge amount.

The same thing applies to genocide.  You say that genocide results from an abandonment of religious moral principles...I say it is the abandonment of *any* moral principles!  I can't even think of an argument that makes sense, even trying to play devils advocate.  Just because some things pay off for some people does not mean they are statistically likely.  I heard a report once where someone was shot in the head, and afterwords they had a photographic memory.  So by your examples, I would be eager to put a bullet in my brain, because, hey, who doesn't want that kind of memory?

See what I mean?

This is not even taking into consideration the idea that your examples are somehow what I would want to strive for anyway!  I'm not even a type A personality, I don't want to rule my neighborhood, much less the world.  I don't want to be a warlord who dominates people by force and spend my life killing to stay alive.  I want a nice, peaceful life where I can pursue things that I enjoy without people bugging me.  My happy place is best protected by making sure the rest of the world is peaceful and happy too!  Am I not being clear?  (Edit: You are going to respond and say, no, but *someone* could use your ideas to do whatever they want!  Well, people can twist anything they want to whatever they want.  I never claimed to have the path to utopia, so please do not claim my moral system is invalid because bad people can still do bad things!  Religious morality obviously cannot either.)

10. Technology made these regimes so murderous, not ethics.  People have been killing people for as long as there have been people.  In Deuteronomy 7:1-2, NIV, the Jews would have nuked their enemies if they had the bomb.  The Greeks would have used machine guns.  The Crusaders would have used mustard gas.  Peter would have used a shotgun to defend Jesus instead of a sword.  In every case, the motivation is the same, but the body count would be higher.  People have been killing in the most efficient way they can throughout history.  The thirty years war killed millions in Europe, and that was an intensely religious time.  Saying that modern day violence is the result of the decline of religion is terribly simplistic, and frankly dangerous, because it obscures the true harbingers of war.

« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 09:41:42 PM by mellestad »

makattak

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Re: Philosophy in the Bible
« Reply #161 on: July 28, 2009, 09:42:59 PM »

OK, I will do this again.  Realistically, what would happen if I tried to conquer the world?  Or murder people?  Or become a dictator?  Or rape someone?  *Realistically*?  You seem to be saying it is in my best interest to do all of those things.  How could that possibly be in my best interest (Edit: by my own moral code, you are not saying that based on your morality, of course!)?  My chances at success would be so slim, that I might as well place my happiness on winning the lottery.  How does that make sense, in a cost-benefit analysis?  If I could get one straight answer from this whole point, this would be it.  You are literally saying that because a handful of people were successful in doing something destructive, that I should do my best to emulate them.  I would be stupid to try such a thing.  In the right circumstance, would I do something horrible?  Of course.  If I had to torture someone to death to save my family, I might consider it.  But your equation about the possible benefits of destructive behavior is off by a huge amount.

The same thing applies to genocide.  You say that genocide results from an abandonment of religious moral principles...I say it is the abandonment of *any* moral principles!  I can't even think of an argument that makes sense, even trying to play devils advocate.  Just because some things pay off for some people does not mean they are statistically likely.  I heard a report once where someone was shot in the head, and afterwords they had a photographic memory.  So by your examples, I would be eager to put a bullet in my brain, because, hey, who doesn't want that kind of memory?

See what I mean?

This is not even taking into consideration the idea that your examples are somehow what I would want to strive for anyway!  I'm not even a type A personality, I don't want to rule my neighborhood, much less the world.  I don't want to be a warlord who dominates people by force and spend my life killing to stay alive.  I want a nice, peaceful life where I can pursue things that I enjoy without people bugging me.  My happy place is best protected by making sure the rest of the world is peaceful and happy too!  Am I not being clear?

I'm guessing you've never heard of the prisoner's dilemma.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

MicroBalrog

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Re: Philosophy in the Bible
« Reply #162 on: July 28, 2009, 09:51:15 PM »
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Then there is the case of the fully formed human (brain & all) who loses their brain via decapitation or some other mechanism.  Yes, they are no longer alive, but that is a change in state, not a change in typology.  They have not just been transformed into a horse, tree, or garden trowel.  They are a dead human.

A human being without a brain is not a living human being. Therefore the rights of a living human being cannot be expected to... exist in it.

This applies, logically, both to humans that don't have a brain any more and to humans that don't have a brain yet.

No brain = no human status.
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MechAg94

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Re: Philosophy in the Bible
« Reply #163 on: July 28, 2009, 10:51:56 PM »
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It isn't arbitrary, it is based out successful outcomes, or bad outcomes.  It grows, changes and adapts and hopefully becomes more effective.  It's foundation is the example of human history, religious or not.  Of course morality is more than don't rob, rape and murder, that is the whole point!  If I have not made that clear by now, I am at a loss for how to express myself.  Our modern morality is based on the changes brought by philosophic thought and secular morality.  If it was not, you would all act exactly like orthodox Jews.
BS.  Modern morality has its basis in the people that make up society and the religious teachings they put into practice and teach their own children.  Philosophic thought and secular morality had little to do with it.  In addition, you say "human history" is the foundation?  WTF?  Since when is that a help?  Human history only tells me that any secular system will become amoral and evil.  Not to mention that is also tells me that humans are naturally clannish and it is our wars and fighting that has shaped our modern world more than anything else.

[/quote]Your "static" laws about morality in the Bible are not static.  Slavery is now considered immoral.  It was not when the Bible was written.  Such examples are common, because "morality" is largely a social construct that changes over time.  Those issues that would quickly destroy society will always be immoral, such as murder.  Humans cannot function any other way.[/quote]
But they are static.  The Bible says the same thing now as it did then.  People may interpret some parts differently, but the basic system is still the same.  With any secular system, you don't have that foundation to refer to when things drift.  Everything is relative to the current position.  There is no fixed point to fall back on. 
Slavery was part of the legal system at the time the Bible was written.  Overthrowing the govt wasn't the goal.  It certainly did cover treatment of slaves as people, not animals or subhumans.  That isn't really what was happening in the US. 

Quote
Again, the secular system is somehow worse.  People apply logic and reason to the moral "laws" in the Bible all the time, and it evolves.  Slavery.  Woman's rights.  Food preparation.  Governmental revolution.  The institution of the church.  People already pick and choose what morality they believe in at will.  Removing God simply removes the barriers that hinder progress.
It wasn't the Bible that changed, but the culture that changed.  The Bible doesn't say women have no rights.  That was the culture and legal systems of the time and it remained quite a while.  If you look, that condition was also prevalent throughout the globe, not just in Christian cultures.  Christians don't worry about food preparation as a moral issue.  Since I grew up with a non-denominational independent church, the "institution of the church" is the same.

Quote
The only argument I can make for religious morality is that I can see situations where religious fundamentalism slows progress, and sometimes slowing progress is good, because it helps identify bad ideas before they become widespread.
That is exactly the point, if you have a moral system that works, you don't want speedy progress.  Changes, if at all, should be slow nad careful.  What sounds great today, doesn't sound so great tomorrow.  How screwed up would our Constitution be if changes were quick and easy?
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mellestad

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Re: Philosophy in the Bible
« Reply #164 on: July 29, 2009, 05:49:17 PM »
I'm guessing you've never heard of the prisoner's dilemma.

Yes, I have.  I would think that would argue for my point though?  By co-operating and helping others, and convincing them to do likewise, I have a better chance at a good outcome than by betrayal.  By "betraying" my fellow human beings, I have the possibility of a "better" outcome (although, Like I pointed out, I would argue against even wanting that outcome), but that is outweighed by the additional risk.

I might be misunderstanding though, feel free to correct me!

1. BS.  Modern morality has its basis in the people that make up society and the religious teachings they put into practice and teach their own children.  Philosophic thought and secular morality had little to do with it.  In addition, you say "human history" is the foundation?  WTF?  Since when is that a help? 
2. Human history only tells me that any secular system will become amoral and evil.  Not to mention that is also tells me that humans are naturally clannish and it is our wars and fighting that has shaped our modern world more than anything else.
Your "static" laws about morality in the Bible are not static.  Slavery is now considered immoral.  It was not when the Bible was written.  Such examples are common, because "morality" is largely a social construct that changes over time.  Those issues that would quickly destroy society will always be immoral, such as murder.  Humans cannot function any other way.

3. But they are static.  The Bible says the same thing now as it did then.  People may interpret some parts differently, but the basic system is still the same.  With any secular system, you don't have that foundation to refer to when things drift.  Everything is relative to the current position.  There is no fixed point to fall back on. 
Slavery was part of the legal system at the time the Bible was written.  Overthrowing the govt wasn't the goal.  It certainly did cover treatment of slaves as people, not animals or subhumans.  That isn't really what was happening in the US. 
It wasn't the Bible that changed, but the culture that changed.  The Bible doesn't say women have no rights.  That was the culture and legal systems of the time and it remained quite a while.  If you look, that condition was also prevalent throughout the globe, not just in Christian cultures.  Christians don't worry about food preparation as a moral issue.  Since I grew up with a non-denominational independent church, the "institution of the church" is the same.
5. That is exactly the point, if you have a moral system that works, you don't want speedy progress.  Changes, if at all, should be slow nad careful.  What sounds great today, doesn't sound so great tomorrow.  How screwed up would our Constitution be if changes were quick and easy?

1. Take away the word "religion" and everything works exactly the same way.  Without secular thought, morality would never change, and we would still be living with the laws we had six thousand years ago, and that is a scary thought!  Theocracies tend to be inflexible when it comes to morality, just look at Sharia law.  The western world secularized.  When we think about right and wrong when making laws, we don't think about the Bible, we think about how it will impact human beings.  That is the essence of secular morality.  Orthodox Judaism and Sharia law are the exact opposite, which is religious morality without secular thought.  I won't include Christian fundamentalism because I think that even the most fundamentalist Christian still ignores many parts of the Bible.  But maybe there are some denominations that try to be as literal as possible?  I dunno.

Human history is the foundation because we can analyze it and see what works and what doesn't.  Say I think capitalism is immoral, and I want to privatize farms.  Well, I can look at history and see what a bad idea that is and hold my horses.  Or on a personal scale, say I really want to murder my next door neighbor, because his dog messes up my yard.  I can analyze the history of similar acts and see what a bad idea it would be, for a whole host of reasons, from likelihood of jail time, to the stability of a system where those things are common. (Edit: And this assumes my built in evolutionary drive toward altruism and empathy has broken down.  I am just trying to show that the system is workable even if you are a psychopath.)

The fact that humans are naturally clannish and warlike is a vital part of human nature that must be examined when building solutions to moral dilemmas, so I agree with you 100%!

2. Pics or it didn't happen.  The system of morality a society follows doesn't matter when a powerful leader/oligarchy simply does whatever they want.  Germany was a Christian nation in the 20th century, but you don't see me blaming Christianity for the Holocaust, you see me blaming dogmatic nationalism, racism and a run-away dictatorship.  Hitler went to church, but he abandoned those principles.  But by abandoning them does not mean he picked up secular morality as a replacement, he was simply ignoring all morality.

You can prove me wrong here though, you just need play devils advocate and show me how Germany and Hitler used a secular thought process, that somehow denies religious morality and acts in the name of secularism, to start the Holocaust, and how it was beneficial to one or both.  I can't think of any way to justify it using my secular morality...I already think murdering people is wrong, because it only causes pain (and chaos) and does not cause enough happiness (or anything good) to come close to balancing that out, and even if I could create a scenario where it might be worth it the risk of punishment pushes the scales down again, against murder, large scale or not.

3. What parts of Biblical morality are static?  Yes, it says the same thing, but like I said, you don't live like a Hasidic Jew, do you?  They still follow Biblical morality to the letter.  The only parts of Biblical morality that have stayed totally static are the laws that, if broken, cause a society to collapse, like murder and theft.  How many people keep the Sabbath holy, in the original meaning?  How many cultures hold other gods before "God" and function just fine?  And outside of the ten commandments, the Bible is filled with direct moral law that we now totally ignore, like the food and hygiene laws I have mentioned some.  How about 1 Corinthians 14:34?  Sure, your interpretation of it might have changed to fit modern culture, but it was certainly interpreted literally for hundreds of years!  Now it would be considered horribly immoral to any western culture.  That is my point, Morality in religion remains religious until it is no longer compatible with the culture using it, and then it is discarded.  Look at how quickly sexual morality is changing, because birth control makes many of the once useful moral laws inapplicable.

I guess a point would be, by what you are saying, Slavery is fine from a Biblical perspective.  I would agree with you, because like you said, at the time it was not wrong.  But our culture has moved past that, so now it is horribly immoral.  That is not a dig against the Bible, it is just another way of pointing out that it is what it is...a collection of oral tradition and written history.  It is fantastic to study in that context.

The truly static parts of religious morality are static for a secular system as well, because deviation results in self-destruction.

4. Good, I agree with you that it is a possible benefit.  But the fact that it slows progress is a negative as well, so I don't see a net positive on the side of religion.

(Edit: I don't know much about this, but if the idea that people really can be psychopaths is true, that also strikes a blow against the religious concept of universal morality.  I did a couple minutes of research, and what I saw did indicate that true psychopathic tendencies are the result of a brain disorder, and not simply an upbringing issue.  But I don't pretend to have any expertise!)
« Last Edit: July 29, 2009, 06:07:08 PM by mellestad »

Perd Hapley

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Re: Philosophy in the Bible
« Reply #165 on: July 29, 2009, 06:35:40 PM »
I don't have any more time for this thread, but I just thought of this today and I wanted to tell you all:

Just say know to agnosticism.   :laugh:
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mellestad

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Re: Philosophy in the Bible
« Reply #166 on: July 29, 2009, 06:48:49 PM »
Just in case this thread dies out, I wanted to say that this debate has been very challenging, and enormously helpful!  You're collective questions have helped me think about issues I never would have considered.

I don't hope to convert anyone, but if even one person leaves this discussion with a greater respect for the validity and practicality of secular morality and/or atheism I consider it time well spent!

Thanks for keeping it civil!

Perd Hapley

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Re: Philosophy in the Bible
« Reply #167 on: August 02, 2009, 03:00:40 PM »
I just read this bit in G.K. Chesterton's Orthodoxy, and it seemed apropos to this thread. 

Quote
Evolution is a metaphor from mere automatic unrolling.  Progress is a metaphor from merely walking along a road - very likely the wrong road.  But reform is a metaphor for reasonable and determined men: it means that we see a certain thing out of shape and we mean to put it into shape.  And we know what shape.
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