Author Topic: Mars Hill church in turmoil  (Read 24756 times)

lee n. field

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Re: Mars Hill church in turmoil
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2014, 03:45:11 PM »
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At thy right hand pleasures for evermore.

Ron

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Re: Mars Hill church in turmoil
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2014, 08:53:24 AM »
Hmm, drama, intrigue and power struggles. Who will control the vast wealth and wield the power of the institutions authority? How will the Mars Hill cult of personality remake itself?

The stakes are high. Some eggs may have to get broken to remake this omelet. The end justifies the means. 

Doesn't look a bit like the loosely organized assembly of believers of Jesus I've read about. 
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

K Frame

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Re: Mars Hill church in turmoil
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2014, 09:55:10 AM »
??? Ooooookaaay.... but it never made any sense to me.

Predestination takes some theological standing from numerous verses in the Bible, such as Jeremiah 1:5 -- "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

The Bible is peppered with similar references, all pointing to a life course already mapped out in totality. It's a concept that is almost as old as Christianity itself.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Mars Hill church in turmoil
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2014, 10:38:35 AM »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

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Balog

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Re: Mars Hill church in turmoil
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2014, 11:29:45 AM »
Hmm, drama, intrigue and power struggles. Who will control the vast wealth and wield the power of the institutions authority? How will the Mars Hill cult of personality remake itself?

The stakes are high. Some eggs may have to get broken to remake this omelet. The end justifies the means. 

Doesn't look a bit like the loosely organized assembly of believers of Jesus I've read about. 

I don't know where you read about that, but it certainly wasn't the Bible. Where we are both called to not forsake gathering together, told to do it in an ordered manner, and given ionstructions on what that looks like.

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Balog

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Re: Mars Hill church in turmoil
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2014, 02:22:24 PM »
Here's the actual statement for those that missed it in the link Lee posted. http://marshill.com/2014/08/24/an-update-from-pastor-mark?

The various leftist anti-theist outfits are frothing in joy at being able to take him down in the court of public opinion. Even though most folks will never really dig in to see the merit of the accusations (14 years ago he said something mean on an internet message board? Teh horrors!) his name will be tarnished because of it. Sad how many Christians are joining in with the internet outrage machine to take down one of their own.
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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

MillCreek

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Re: Mars Hill church in turmoil
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2014, 03:14:37 PM »
^^^ I think he wrote a great message.
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Jocassee

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Re: Mars Hill church in turmoil
« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2014, 04:44:52 PM »
Having examined Driscoll's message and the sort of people he surrounds himself with, I can safely say that I am not a fan. He seems to spend a lot of time trying to get the limp-wrists in his congregation (real or perceived) to "man up" in various ways. Having avoided people who have tried to tell me how to be their version of an adult for most of my adult life, this rubbed me exactly the wrong way.

Is he guilty of all he's accused of? Probably not. But I absolutely believe he has created this environment for himself. There was an episode two or three years ago where one of the senior staff had a disagreement with Driscoll, resigned without rancor, then was ostracized by the rest of the church. That doesn't happen by accident and it's nearly always caused by toxic leadership.
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Balog

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Re: Mars Hill church in turmoil
« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2014, 05:02:45 PM »
Having examined Driscoll's message and the sort of people he surrounds himself with, I can safely say that I am not a fan. He seems to spend a lot of time trying to get the limp-wrists in his congregation (real or perceived) to "man up" in various ways. Having avoided people who have tried to tell me how to be their version of an adult for most of my adult life, this rubbed me exactly the wrong way.

Is he guilty of all he's accused of? Probably not. But I absolutely believe he has created this environment for himself. There was an episode two or three years ago where one of the senior staff had a disagreement with Driscoll, resigned without rancor, then was ostracized by the rest of the church. That doesn't happen by accident and it's nearly always caused by toxic leadership.

1. Men refusing to follow the Biblical precepts laid out for them is a huge problem everywhere, and especially so in around here. You can criticize how he went about it, but trying to get men to man the hell up is a very needed effort.

2. re the bolded part, what are you basing that broad and sweeping accusation on? The incidents I've seen (both in Mars Hill and in other churches that had a similar situation) is usually someone who gets caught in sin or heresy, is disciplined in an appropriate way, and then posts a childish and inflammatory screed on a blog about how awful and evil and unfair the church in question was to them. You get one (highly biased) side of an interpersonal dispute, and then take it as gospel and impugn the thousands of folks at a church? Lol.

Like I said, I have no affiliation with MHC aside from having a lot of friends that attend there. But I saw this same sort of thing happen at the church I got married at (long after I had moved out of state and no longer attended there) and I am very, very cynical about all of the accusations when they are not directly provable and actionable. When it's just "Pastor X hurt my feels so I'm going to assassinate his character on the internet" then there is a pretty high chance it's BS. Remember that the Gospel is frequently called offensive, so it never surprises me when someone who is faithful to it is hated on.

 
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Re: Mars Hill church in turmoil
« Reply #34 on: August 25, 2014, 05:10:40 PM »
I've seen this kind of drama unfold before.  It seems to occur when church leadership (men) demands more attention than the word of god.  The attrition is healthy.
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Jocassee

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Re: Mars Hill church in turmoil
« Reply #35 on: August 25, 2014, 05:23:33 PM »
1. Men refusing to follow the Biblical precepts laid out for them is a huge problem everywhere, and especially so in around here. You can criticize how he went about it, but trying to get men to man the hell up is a very needed effort.

2. re the bolded part, what are you basing that broad and sweeping accusation on? The incidents I've seen (both in Mars Hill and in other churches that had a similar situation) is usually someone who gets caught in sin or heresy, is disciplined in an appropriate way, and then posts a childish and inflammatory screed on a blog about how awful and evil and unfair the church in question was to them. You get one (highly biased) side of an interpersonal dispute, and then take it as gospel and impugn the thousands of folks at a church? Lol.

Like I said, I have no affiliation with MHC aside from having a lot of friends that attend there. But I saw this same sort of thing happen at the church I got married at (long after I had moved out of state and no longer attended there) and I am very, very cynical about all of the accusations when they are not directly provable and actionable. When it's just "Pastor X hurt my feels so I'm going to assassinate his character on the internet" then there is a pretty high chance it's BS. Remember that the Gospel is frequently called offensive, so it never surprises me when someone who is faithful to it is hated on.

 

Regarding the specific instance that I referenced--if I could provide better details, I would, but I don't even remember enough specifics for a decent google. That said, having grown up in Fundamentalism (Bob Jones University and its affiliated churches specifically*) I can recognize a cult of personality from a long way off and I'm pretty sure Driscoll has it, or thinks he does (or perhaps used to).

There's no way to make that seem any less personal against your friends who attend there (who I'm sure are good folks), and I perfectly understand your disdain for my opinion from afar. But from my experience deep inside the Bible Belt, where there's smoke, there's almost certainly fire.

And for the record, I am against character assassinations and bitter ex-church members in general. They tend to be loud, obnoxious, utterly biased, and mean-spirited. They also, at times, presenting information that must be dealt with in the cold light of day.

I hope whatever issues are going on, real or imagined, that Driscoll and his church deals with them in a biblical way and that he hones his pastoral craft and keeps doing the Lord's work. I don't want him gone, or destroyed. But I think there are some serious things he needs to change.

* I freely admit that my point of view in such matters is influenced by the fact that I was a member of a functional cult back in the 90's and I am having a bit of a delayed adverse reaction.
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Balog

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Re: Mars Hill church in turmoil
« Reply #36 on: August 25, 2014, 05:37:45 PM »
Regarding the specific instance that I referenced--if I could provide better details, I would, but I don't even remember enough specifics for a decent google. That said, having grown up in Fundamentalism (Bob Jones University and its affiliated churches specifically*) I can recognize a cult of personality from a long way off and I'm pretty sure Driscoll has it, or thinks he does (or perhaps used to).

There's no way to make that seem any less personal against your friends who attend there (who I'm sure are good folks), and I perfectly understand your disdain for my opinion from afar. But from my experience deep inside the Bible Belt, where there's smoke, there's almost certainly fire.

And for the record, I am against character assassinations and bitter ex-church members in general. They tend to be loud, obnoxious, utterly biased, and mean-spirited. They also, at times, presenting information that must be dealt with in the cold light of day.

I hope whatever issues are going on, real or imagined, that Driscoll and his church deals with them in a biblical way and that he hones his pastoral craft and keeps doing the Lord's work. I don't want him gone, or destroyed. But I think there are some serious things he needs to change.

* I freely admit that my point of view in such matters is influenced by the fact that I was a member of a functional cult back in the 90's and I am having a bit of a delayed adverse reaction.

Meh, I grew up in a real, no-sht, "let's all move across the country and give all our money to the leader" kind of cult. I knew lots of folks who went to Bob Jones when I still lived in AZ. To compare this situation to either of those things is projection, pure and simple. I get where you're coming from and I'll be the first to agree if the situation warrants it, but there really is no comparison.

I think there's a tendency to see a headline like "Pastor embroiled in scandal!" and jump to conclusions, which is why this sort of character attack is so effective.

Also, if you actually read the stuff Driscoll/MHC has put out there, he/they have been very very forthright in acknowledging that many mistakes were made and in trying to apologize and make atonement for them. I really do believe this is just a result of the church being large and effective in a very anti-God area (last I saw we were either the most un-churched part of the country or in the top 3).
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Mars Hill church in turmoil
« Reply #37 on: August 25, 2014, 06:26:23 PM »
They have a strong system to help addicts and those struggling with sexual immorality in place in the church, and started a group that rescues women who've been forced into sexual slavery and trafficked. I believe they support a lot of the homeless ministries in the area. I guess that's not "social justice" enough for the liberals.

Whoever said MHC was one of the "seeker sensitive" lot could not be more wrong. Unless you think having loud worship music means you're seeker sensitive. Of course the various Orthodox denominations probably think your hymns are too modern and seeker sensitive so...

I don't go to Mars Hill, but I have a lot of friends who do and I've seen the tremendous difference they have made. Driscoll certainly isn't perfect and he's always been very upfront about his failings. It's sad to see so many people turning on him instead of drawing alongside to help. A lot of jealousy and placing cultural norms as equivalent to Biblical standards imho. 

I have seen churches that, like the Mars Hill you describe, God uses to help people. Some of those same churches have had real problems, some as bad or worse than what is being said of Mark Driscoll. So I can believe there is much good being done by Mars Hill, and at the same time, I don't find it unbelievable that the senior pastor of such a church could be such a problem, that he ought to step down. Not that I'm saying that Driscoll is, or ought to. But the two conditions could exist in the same church.

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Balog

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Re: Mars Hill church in turmoil
« Reply #38 on: August 25, 2014, 06:31:48 PM »
I have seen churches that, like the Mars Hill you describe, God uses to help people. Some of those same churches have had real problems, some as bad or worse than what is being said of Mark Driscoll. So I can believe there is much good being done by Mars Hill, and at the same time, I don't find it unbelievable that the senior pastor of such a church could be such a problem, that he ought to step down. Not that I'm saying that Driscoll is, or ought to. But the two conditions could exist in the same church.



The first part was addressing the characterization that they didn't do much "social justice" stuff.

I don't find the idea that a pastor could be doing bad things and need to step down hard to believe at all. I am merely speaking about the specific charges leveled about this specific pastor, and the pre-existing attitudes towards him among both the liberal and conservative wings of modern American "evangelical" Christendom.
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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Ron

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Re: Mars Hill church in turmoil
« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2014, 07:30:37 PM »
I don't know where you read about that, but it certainly wasn't the Bible. Where we are both called to not forsake gathering together, told to do it in an ordered manner, and given instructions on what that looks like.

After having spent plenty of years in a mega church, in a very large church and then in some smaller churches I can say one thing for sure.

Nothing about mega church American corporations compare to the NT 'ordered manner' except maybe in the use of some of the same terms.

As far as all the drama etc... I stand by what I said. Granted all I have are news and blog reports but I'm not seeing or sensing any of this as being from God. Bunch of A type corporate types in a power struggle defined by our weird merging of corporate structure and Christianity and calling them churches.  

Has or is God using Mars Hill? No doubt, Samson used the jawbone of an ass to slay a thousand, with God all things are possible.  

Personally I prefer small assemblies, elder controlled and that aren't held together by the cult of personality.

Been there done that, no more.  
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 07:37:17 PM by Ron »
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

Balog

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Re: Mars Hill church in turmoil
« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2014, 07:41:11 PM »
After having spent plenty of years in a mega church, in a very large church and then in some smaller churches I can say one thing for sure.

Nothing about mega church American corporations compare to the NT 'ordered manner' except maybe in the use of some of the same terms.

As far as all the drama etc... I stand by what I said. Granted all I have are news and blog reports but I'm not seeing or sensing any of this as being from God. Bunch of A type corporate types in a power struggle defined by our weird merging of corporate structure and Christianity and calling them churches.  

Has or is God using Mars Hill? No doubt, Samson used the jawbone of an ass to slay a thousand, with God all things are possible.  

Personally I prefer small assemblies, elder controlled and that aren't held together by the cult of personality.

Been there done that, no more.  


For a guy with nothing to go on but bitterness over past experiences and character assassination news reports, you sure are eager to slander many thousands of good people with your silly "cult of personality" accusations.
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I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Ron

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Re: Mars Hill church in turmoil
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2014, 07:47:31 PM »
For a guy with nothing to go on but bitterness over past experiences and character assassination news reports, you sure are eager to slander many thousands of good people with your silly "cult of personality" accusations.

I call them like I see them.

If you don't think there is a cult of personality around these guys who build mega churches then we can agree to disagree.

I don't think for one moment "preacher knows best".

The music and fellowship (accountability) are the main draws for me regarding church. Service projects are nice also but serving others really is supposed to be a lifestyle, not an occasional event.







« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 07:51:53 PM by Ron »
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

Balog

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Re: Mars Hill church in turmoil
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2014, 07:48:30 PM »
I call them like I see them.

If you don't think there is a cult of personality around these guys who build mega churches then we can agree to disagree.

I don't think for one moment "preacher knows best".

I'm not talking about "these guys" I am talking about this one particular guy, and my friends who attend there that you are so casually slandering.
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Ron

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Re: Mars Hill church in turmoil
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2014, 08:06:03 PM »
I'm not talking about "these guys" I am talking about this one particular guy, and my friends who attend there that you are so casually slandering.

I don't know any individuals heart so I'm not slandering anyone. I attended for the the better part of a decade a mega church and never bought into the cult of personality. Yet I witnessed it back then and can spot it easily today.

We were not commissioned to go out and build rich, grand, influential and powerful movements.

Is it the work of God or of a great corporate structure and business model?

If any work of God is being done it is being done through individuals who reflect Gods love in their actions despite their church. The corporate framework or human leader is secondary and in many if not most cases a hindrance IMHO.

For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

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Re: Mars Hill church in turmoil
« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2014, 08:18:05 PM »
I'm not talking about "these guys" I am talking about this one particular guy, and my friends who attend there that you are so casually slandering.
:rofl:

Perd Hapley

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Re: Mars Hill church in turmoil
« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2014, 08:45:15 PM »
I don't know any individuals heart so I'm not slandering anyone. I attended for the the better part of a decade a mega church and never bought into the cult of personality. Yet I witnessed it back then and can spot it easily today.

We were not commissioned to go out and build rich, grand, influential and powerful movements.

Is it the work of God or of a great corporate structure and business model?

If any work of God is being done it is being done through individuals who reflect Gods love in their actions despite their church. The corporate framework or human leader is secondary and in many if not most cases a hindrance IMHO.


Ron, I'm trying to understand your criticism. I have little experience with very large churches. From reading the New Testament, it is clear to me that the church is to be led by "human leaders," who are to be respected and valued. (And, of course, held accountable.) It is likewise clear that there is to be a certain structure of elders/overseers/bishops (however you choose to translate it), and deacons. Where do you think the mega-church departs from the Biblical model?

I have not found any admonition against churches having wealth or influence, aside from the obvious consideration that the wealth should be used for God's purposes.

I would also point out that the New Testament says nothing about churches having music programs, but does say that they fed widows. Which would seem to indicate that service programs might be at least as important as the musical portion of the worship service.
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Ron

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Re: Mars Hill church in turmoil
« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2014, 09:38:25 PM »

Ron, I'm trying to understand your criticism. I have little experience with very large churches.

That may hinder your ability to understand where I'm coming from for sure.

Large or mega-Churches frequently suffer from the same human failings that government does.

Too much power and authority vested in a leader or oligarchy.

Too much centralized authority.

At some point protecting or promoting the institution becomes the purpose regardless of the human "casualties".

The Roman Catholic Church and the preponderance of protestant denominations bear that out.

Government, corporations, churches all exhibit the same dynamics of human failings.

Churches are not exempt.

Regarding service projects you don't get brownie points from God for belonging to an institution that does good works.

The individuals doing good works out of love for their fellow humans are practicing true religion. Service projects are a great vehicle for that inclination but unfortunately are often a sign of compartmentalization of a virtue that should be practiced regularly. Think service project lifestyle.

Smaller, decentralized and more personal has a better chance of being authentic. A better chance to actually get to know folks and learn their needs as well as being part of an assembly that will love you and hold you/others accountable.   

Even in mega churches they see that reality and have pursued small group meetings.





 
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

roo_ster

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Re: Mars Hill church in turmoil
« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2014, 10:40:16 PM »
The Driscoll deal looks like a lack of accountability and/or failure of governance to rein in a man who believed his own press.  (He declared himself the Mars Hill "brand?"  Really?)  Doesn't really matter his theology at that point.  The inflection point (it looks like) was 2007, when Driscoll pulled a coup de main by expelling those who would hold him accountable, replacing them with yes-men, and changing the church by-laws to vest him with greater authority.

I have attended charismatic speaking-in-tongues, flopping in the aisles, holy-roller, near pandemonium services with objectively better governance and accountability than what can be seen at Mars Hill.  The elders in the church had real authority to keep a pastor from going off the rails or aggrandizing power to himself or abusing his authority.  The church was also part of an association that also kept a gimlet eye on things.  I am not the least bit charismatic, but it was kind of impressive to see some of the inner workings.  Most those big church scandals seem to be from independent churches, not The First Baptist Megachurch of Sometown (Southern Baptist Convention). 

No accountability within the church, no accountability from without.  Driscoll doesn't have to be a demon or an ogre, just a man.  How many could resist the perks and little corruptions if one's abilities had brought such success?  Those little corruptions lead to larger abuses of trust and then of authority--all justifiable by the wildfire success of the church, books, etc.  Look at the Jaques Barzun quote in my sig.  "The world has long observed that small acts of immorality, if repeated, will destroy character."

Anyways, that is how I see it.  We are all fallible and almost all of us have an earthly price.  Without accountability from within and from above, it seems just a matter of time until Screwtape and Wormwood twist mad success into a trap.
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Re: Mars Hill church in turmoil
« Reply #48 on: August 25, 2014, 10:45:49 PM »
And it is not as if Mars Hill church can not go on without Driscoll.  I just looked up Ted Haggard, who bought meth off a male prostitute with whom he had intercourse.  His church in colorado springs has seen its attendance drop 20% and revenues drop 10% since Haggard's departure.  Most everything that church was doing is still getting done, even without Haggard.

Because it is not about the pastor, or the buildings, or the books, or the super-speshul outreach program.
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TommyGunn

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Re: Mars Hill church in turmoil
« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2014, 11:59:57 PM »
Predestination takes some theological standing from numerous verses in the Bible, such as Jeremiah 1:5 -- "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

The Bible is peppered with similar references, all pointing to a life course already mapped out in totality. It's a concept that is almost as old as Christianity itself.

This whole thread is describing a sort of "predestination'' I've never heard of.
What I was told, not in theology school but in history class, was "predestination" meant it had already been decided that you would wind up in heaven or hell.  It didn't matter if you were Mother Theresa or Ghenghis Khan or Hitler.
Jehovah God claiming that he knew Jeremiah "Before I formed ...(him) in the belly I knew ...(him)" is not QUIT the same as saying he'd mapped out the life of everyone who wasn't a prophet.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 11:34:23 AM by TommyGunn »
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero