Mars Hill church in turmoil

[Tuco]

But its so much harder to control people with that liberal (and Im sure  absolutely wrong cuzjohncalvintoldmeso ) version of predestination.

[Balog]

I don't know any individuals heart so I'm not slandering anyone. I attended for the the better part of a decade a mega church and never bought into the cult of personality. Yet I witnessed it back then and can spot it easily today.

We were not commissioned to go out and build rich, grand, influential and powerful movements.

Is it the work of God or of a great corporate structure and business model?

If any work of God is being done it is being done through individuals who reflect Gods love in their actions despite their church. The corporate framework or human leader is secondary and in many if not most cases a hindrance IMHO.

The church in Acts was thousands of people. ZOMG the apostles formed a mega-church!

You had a bad experience with a certain type of church, and have now decided to call all churches of a certain size cults (and by extension, those who attend cultists). That's sad and unfortunate.

[Perd Hapley]

This whole thread is describing a sort of "predestination'' I've never heard of.
What I was told, not in theology school but in history class, was "predestination" meant it had already been decided that you would wind up in heaven or hell.  It didn't matter if you Mother Theresa or Ghenghis Khan or Hitler.
Jehovah God claiming that he know Jeremiah "Before I formed ...(him) in the belly I knew ...(him)" is not QUIT the same as saying he'd mapped out the life of everyone who wasn't a prophet.

Predestination, in Christian theology, usually means both. Mike was just citing an example of where predestination is supported by scripture. To the Calvinist, God has already determined whether He will save your soul; and He also predestines the events of everyone's lives. That's a simplistic explanation, of course.

I'm not sure where Hawkmoon came by his version of it. Usually, people are talking about a Calvinistic view of predestination, which would bear some resemblance to what I described above.

[Ron]

Settle down Balog, 'cult of personality' has a specific meaning and I wasn't implying doctrinal heresy. I'm not calling anyone a cultist. 

I was just drawing similarities between megachurches built by charismatic preachers and the well understood concept.

Like rooster said, too much authority at the top with too little accountability.

Driscoll bears no blame, it was all mapped out and foreordained to happen anyway...  

[Ron]

It seems to me that Christian Predestination is the believers analogue to non Christians who believe in materialistic determinism.

God exists outside the created universe of time and sees the whole thing beginning to end in his present.

Philosophically I think the concept is called 'eternalism' and in physics is related to the 'block universe' theory.   

[Balog]

Predestination, in Christian theology, usually means both. Mike was just citing an example of where predestination is supported by scripture. To the Calvinist, God has already determined whether He will save your soul; and He also predestines the events of everyone's lives. That's a simplistic explanation, of course.

I'm not sure where Hawkmoon came by his version of it. Usually, people are talking about a Calvinistic view of predestination, which would bear some resemblance to what I described above.

I seem to recall Hawkmoon mentioned being affiliated with the Unitarians or similar denomination a while back. Which might explain why his theological understanding in a lot of these threads seem somewhat heterodox.

Settle down Balog, 'cult of personality' has a specific meaning and I wasn't implying doctrinal heresy. I'm not calling anyone a cultist. 

I was just drawing similarities between megachurches built by charismatic preachers and the well understood concept.

Like rooster said, too much authority at the top with too little accountability.

Driscoll bears no blame, it was all mapped out and foreordained to happen anyway... 

You're using news reports with the accuracy of MSNBC's early reporting of the Trayvon Martin shooting in order to feel self righteous and better than a group of people you've never met and know nothing about. It's shameful.

MHC has loads of problems, and made lots of mistakes. It's a human institution, so that's inevitable. The malicious glee you're taking in making ignorant slanders is disgusting.

[Tallpine]

So is this thread predestined to get locked 

 

[Ron]

There's no malicious glee in this at all.

I was just pointing out how predictable a mega church going through this type of turmoil is, based on my history and experience.

Even the Roman Catholic Church with millennia of practice hasn't got it dialed in...

 

[Balog]

There's no malicious glee in this at all.

I was just pointing out how predictable a mega church going through this type of turmoil is, based on my history and experience.

Even the Roman Catholic Church with millennia of practice hasn't got it dialed in...

 

No human institution of any size, with any form of polity or leadership, is going to avoid having scandal and failings.

[lee n. field]

There's no malicious glee in this at all.

I was just pointing out how predictable a mega church going through this type of turmoil is, based on my history and experience.

Even the Roman Catholic Church with millennia of practice hasn't got it dialed in...

Modern corporate leadership principles, in action.

[K Frame]

This whole thread is describing a sort of "predestination'' I've never heard of.
What I was told, not in theology school but in history class, was "predestination" meant it had already been decided that you would wind up in heaven or hell.  It didn't matter if you were Mother Theresa or Ghenghis Khan or Hitler.
Jehovah God claiming that he knew Jeremiah "Before I formed ...(him) in the belly I knew ...(him)" is not QUIT the same as saying he'd mapped out the life of everyone who wasn't a prophet.

That's a SINGLE Bible quote. As I said, there are many that formed a supporting structure, as it were, for the concept of predestination.

Predestination is a very complex concept in Christian theology. John Calvin's interpretation of predestination is what's taught in history classes, but it differs greatly from the thoughts of Augustine of Hippo.

I mean hell, look at all of the different interpretations of predestination theology that are referenced in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination#History_of_the_doctrine

I'd never heard of, oh, say, 95% of them, and it looks like each one of them has a pretty significant set of views on what predestination is based on the founder's own interpretation of what the Bible has to say...

[zxcvbob]

Predestination, in Christian theology, usually means both. Mike was just citing an example of where predestination is supported by scripture. To the Calvinist, God has already determined whether He will save your soul; and He also predestines the events of everyone's lives. That's a simplistic explanation, of course.

I'm not sure where Hawkmoon came by his version of it. Usually, people are talking about a Calvinistic view of predestination, which would bear some resemblance to what I described above.

Doesn't the doctrine of predestination mainly come from Ephesians chapter 1 (which has a certain tension with the "whosoever" in John 3:16) rather than the Psalms and several examples of OT prophets and John the Baptist?

I think the truth lies somewhere between Calvin and Armenius.  Man has freewill, but is depraved -- so that nonesoever believeth unless God makes an overture first.  That still doesn't fully explain Eph 1... 

Perhaps another way to put it (I just thought of this) is that all invited and have a preplanned destiny, but as free moral agents we can reject that destiny.  Many are called but few are chosen.

[AmbulanceDriver]

Doesn't the doctrine of predestination mainly come from Ephesians chapter 1 (which has a certain tension with the "whosoever" in John 3:16) rather than the Psalms and several examples of OT prophets and John the Baptist?

I think the truth lies somewhere between Calvin and Armenius.  Man has freewill, but is depraved -- so that nonesoever believeth unless God makes an overture first.  That still doesn't fully explain Eph 1... 

Perhaps another way to put it (I just thought of this) is that all invited and have a preplanned destiny, but as free moral agents we can reject that destiny.  Many are called but few are chosen.

I'd rephrase the bolded to "all are invited, but few accept."

[Balog]

I tend to think of the doctrine of predestination vs free will like the Trinity: we can sort of analogize it but can't really grok it properly. Sort of a Deut 29:29 thing.

[Ron]

If God hasn't seen fit to make it obvious and clear then I'm not focusing on the issue.

Not to say that it isn't an interesting subject as mental masturbation 

One of my good friends I ride with attends a mega church and we've bounced around the mega church topic and I managed to not be abrasive or insulting to him as I was to some in this thread.

So I guess my thoughts about Calvinist brothers and sisters theology regarding predestination will be left unsaid so as not to offend anyone     

I'll just say that God is love and offers mercy and grace to all. Even us opinionated embittered Christians   


 

[TommyGunn]

That's a SINGLE Bible quote. As I said, there are many that formed a supporting structure, as it were, for the concept of predestination.

Predestination is a very complex concept in Christian theology. John Calvin's interpretation of predestination is what's taught in history classes, but it differs greatly from the thoughts of Augustine of Hippo.

I mean hell, look at all of the different interpretations of predestination theology that are referenced in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination#History_of_the_doctrine

I'd never heard of, oh, say, 95% of them, and it looks like each one of them has a pretty significant set of views on what predestination is based on the founder's own interpretation of what the Bible has to say...

When you get into what different denominations say about the Bible and what it says/means .......
Take the idea of the Trinity, for example. God, Jesus, and the "Holy Ghost."   This is apparently Christian doctrine in many denominations.  I was raised in the Episcopalian Denomination and we believed it; in fact the church I attended growing up was the "Christ and Holy Trinity Church" in Westport, Connecticut.
But take Jehovah's Witnesses.  They were originally refered to as "Bible Students" and study the Bible (hence their original name) and take their doctrine from direct study of what the scriptures say.  They do not believe in the Holy Trinity concept.  They don't believe humans have souls, they believe humans are souls.  And the soul is not immortal, being "remembered" by God depends on what one does in one's life.  They don't celebrate Christmas as do other denominations.

I don't wish to get into a deep theological debate with anyone here.  I respect all beliefs be they Protestant, Catholic, Presbyterian, Baptist, Zoaastrian, even athiest.  Although I don't understand that last .... (Ha!  like I really understand any or 'em....).

There may be numerous statements made in the bible that might be interpreted to support predestination.  
I just can't "buy" it.  
If Hitler was "predestined" to go into Heaven, then what does that say about God's righteousness?  

[Balog]

JW's aren't Christians, they're a separate religion.

[MillCreek]

http://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/are-jehovahs-witnesses-christians/

Hmm, the official body of the JW's say that they are Christians.

[Balog]

http://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/are-jehovahs-witnesses-christians/

Hmm, the official body of the JW's say that they are Christians.

They say that they are Christians. But none of the non-JW groups are.

So, they admit that they are not part of the belief system that the world knows as "Christian." They're just trying to co-opt the term.

[Tuco]

That's what the protestants say about catholics.

[zxcvbob]

That's what the protestants say about catholics.

What protestants, exactly?

[Perd Hapley]

That's what the protestants say about catholics.

Some Protestants may say that.

[TommyGunn]

JW's aren't Christians, they're a separate religion.

They accept Jesus Christ as the Son of God.   
Not that I am trying to start a fight .... but what else do you require?
 

[makattak]

No, they don't.  At least not anymore than you or I are a "son of God." They also don't believe He is God.

There's a start for why they are not Christian.

[TommyGunn]

No, they don't.  At least not anymore than you or I are a "son of God." They also don't believe He is God.

There's a start for why they are not Christian.

Oh, yes, they do.   
You don't know what you're talking about, me thinks.