Bush the Patsy-part deux

[jeepmor]

Unrestrained and unaccountable capitalism is every bit as dangerous as unrestrained, unaccountable government.

Bush and his corporate chronies come to mind, and no, it's not working, it is dangerous.  I don't think we need to argue that point. 

Also, Portland, Oregon has CSO, Combined Sewerage Overflow, but only when it rains hard.  Jeebus people, it's Portland, it rains 6 months a year here.  Willamette River, 10th or 11th most polluted river in the nation last I checked. 

Mexicans following safety regs, that's a good one.  Reminds of the time as a college student when the elevator locked up on my buddy and I, trapping us inside.  Of course, we were drunk and swilling on cheap mexican hooch, but I digress, that has nothing to do with elevator function, we pressed ALL the buttons I assure you.  I figured out how to open the elevator car door to find all the wiring twisted together by hand and sealed with a quick fold of electrical tape.  Wire nuts, bah, thats for the safety nazis.  Not a wrapping or anything thoughtful, a quick fold, with half the wire still bare.  Needless to say, the locals were laughing that we were stuck, I popped the faulty solenoid latch and set us free to pursue college age wares once more.

Yeah, I want those Mexican trucks on our roads.  Come on, competition is one thing, safety is another.  Ever ride in a Mexican cab or bus?  Nuff said.

Capitalism is always restrained: restrained by threat of lawsuits from damaged consumers, restrained by binding contracts, and restrained by the market place.  And it is accountable to those as well.

Oh yeah, the big corporates have done nothing to dumb down the regs so there are limits to their liabilty to minimize the financial impact to their negligence.   If you're a big enough corporation and pony up enough dollars you can get away with darn near anything.  Do we need to mention Enron or Halliburton to drum up some examples of government and capitalism abusing regulations?

[Perd Hapley]

Because none of the Enron execs were held accountable for the actions, right?   


I enjoy the fact that corporations and Republicans are frequently credited with creating the link between wealth and power.  Goodness knows the rich never had more influence than the poor, until Bush was elected. 

[Paddy]

Because none of the Enron execs were held accountable for the actions, right?   rolleyes


I enjoy the fact that corporations and Republicans are frequently credited with creating the link between wealth and power.  Goodness knows the rich never had more influence than the poor, until Bush was elected.

Congratulations! You win the coveted combined non sequitur and post hoc ergo propter hoc awards.

Keep up the good work!

[Paddy]

Who is talking about "unrestrained and unaccountable" capitalism?  Is there such a thing?  No, there isn't.  It is an abstraction created by leftist idealogues to belittle capitalism and freedom.
Capitalism is always restrained: restrained by threat of lawsuits from damaged consumers, restrained by binding contracts, and restrained by the market place.  And it is accountable to those as well.

And you win the Whopper of the Year Award.  I would have answered earlier, but it took me this long to stop laughing.  Corporate capitalism has a long and well documented history of fraud, corruption, bribery, environmental destruction. and human rights violations. 

Thanks for the belly laugh, though.

[The Rabbi]

Who is talking about "unrestrained and unaccountable" capitalism?  Is there such a thing?  No, there isn't.  It is an abstraction created by leftist idealogues to belittle capitalism and freedom.
Capitalism is always restrained: restrained by threat of lawsuits from damaged consumers, restrained by binding contracts, and restrained by the market place.  And it is accountable to those as well.

And you win the Whopper of the Year Award.  I would have answered earlier, but it took me this long to stop laughing.  Corporate capitalism has a long and well documented history of fraud, corruption, bribery, environmental destruction. and human rights violations. 

Thanks for the belly laugh, though.

I notice people laugh at what they don't understand.
No system is immune to ill-doing.  You claim capitalism is unrestrained.  I pointed out it is not unrestrained, even in its purest form.  It is always restrained by the forces I mentioned.  The fact that occasionally corporations play the role of ill-doer does not obviate the basic thesis.
And I haven't seen any other system that avoids all the ills you describe.  On the contrary, all other systems produce far more of them, while failing to deliver prosperity to its citizens.
So, laugh away...

[Manedwolf]

The internet has allowed the market to control itself even more efficiently.

Once upon a time, miracle-tonic salespeople used to travel the country. They knew that even if their tonic was proven to be alcohol and water and they were run out of town, people a few towns away wouldn't have heard of them.

Now, a company can't make a single mis-step either in sloppiness or greed without news of it spreading across the internet instantly, chasing consumers everywhere away from the brand.

[cordex]

So you are positing that lowering costs in any industry does not benefit anyone?  That would be news to most economists.

Are you saying that the whole industry will be made to meet the minimum requirements or just a select group?

Hypocrisy?  You decide.

Ah, the dreaded "hypocrisy" charge.  The last sin in modern society.  You can forgive anything but not hypocrisy.

I'm not again' more trade, nor am I again' drivers with Mexican licenses delivering the stuff I buy from Mexico.  I might be again' selective enforcement of safety and vehicular standards.  I don't care if they're applied at the higher or lower level, I just feel they should be relatively equal.

[Paddy]

No system is immune to ill-doing.  You claim capitalism is unrestrained.  I pointed out it is not unrestrained, even in its purest form.  It is always restrained by the forces I mentioned.  The fact that occasionally corporations play the role of ill-doer does not obviate the basic thesis.
And I haven't seen any other system that avoids all the ills you describe.  On the contrary, all other systems produce far more of them, while failing to deliver prosperity to its citizens.

Apparently then, you agree that restraint is a necessary component, to both capitalism and government?
And apparently, your claim is that there is sufficient restraint on capitalism by lawsuit, contracts, and the marketplace, to maintain corporate integrity?  That is your assertion?

[The Rabbi]

No system is immune to ill-doing.  You claim capitalism is unrestrained.  I pointed out it is not unrestrained, even in its purest form.  It is always restrained by the forces I mentioned.  The fact that occasionally corporations play the role of ill-doer does not obviate the basic thesis.
And I haven't seen any other system that avoids all the ills you describe.  On the contrary, all other systems produce far more of them, while failing to deliver prosperity to its citizens.

Apparently then, you agree that restraint is a necessary component, to both capitalism and government?
And apparently, your claim is that there is sufficient restraint on capitalism by lawsuit, contracts, and the marketplace, to maintain corporate integrity?  That is your assertion?

Pretty much that's it, yeah.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Rabbi for President in '08!

[The Rabbi]

Rabbi for President in '08!

Oh, yeah.  That's a winner.

We already got one guy from TN running.  Vote for him instead.  Better yet, send money.

[longeyes]

Everyone loves the free market as long as they're free to set all the prices and exclude whoever.

Where's the faith in capitalism people?

I want to see how welcome American trucks and drivers are in the heart of Mejico, how welcome American entrepreneurs are.  Free market capitalism is not about the U.S. being everyone else's economic bitch.

[Sergeant Bob]

I want to see how welcome American trucks and drivers are in the heart of Mejico, how welcome American entrepreneurs are.  Free market capitalism is not about the U.S. being everyone else's economic bitch.

They don't dare leave the truck or they will be driving back on the hubs or their their tires will be replaced maypops.

Then wait for the accident scams. People hitting their brakes in front of trucks and feigning whiplash for cash. Unless things have change down there, when you get in an accident, you have to hang around until a judge decides who is at fault and the matter is settled (or just give the hombre some money real quick) or do the cash and dash.

[De Selby]

Everyone loves the free market as long as they're free to set all the prices and exclude whoever.

Where's the faith in capitalism people?

I want to see how welcome American trucks and drivers are in the heart of Mejico, how welcome American entrepreneurs are.  Free market capitalism is not about the U.S. being everyone else's economic bitch.

Are you serious? You actually think that NAFTA is just a free gift to the Mexicans, who are enjoying protected jobs and economic status now because of it?

Not only are American corporations and investments welcome in Mexico, they are cleaning up the competition.  Check out the stats:

http://www.usembassy-mexico.gov/eng/trade_info.html

American capital rules in Mexico-so much so that the Mexicans are generally up in arms about free trade, and consider the current relationship to be one that ruins the unprotected Mexican economy for the benefit of US profit margins.

[The Rabbi]

I notice the US is technically running a trade deficit with Mexico.  Of course counting it is a little tricky.  If a U.S. company moves its manufacturing to Mexico and sells in the Mexican market then that doesnt count as credit to the U.S., even though a U.S. company is getting the benefit.
Nice response though.  Shows Thomas Sowell's assertion that two parties do not trade unless they both will benefit.

[Paddy]

Not only are American corporations and investments welcome in Mexico, they are cleaning up the competition.

Translation= The bastards are exporting (what should be American) jobs, exploiting already impoverished Mexican labor, and reaping the benefits in the form of consumer dollars from the Americans they screwed in the first place.  These are Bush's corporate pals, and he's giving them a superhighway and free access for Mexican trucks. 

Yeah, there needs to be more restraint.  A lot more, in the form of import tariffs.

[The Rabbi]

Not only are American corporations and investments welcome in Mexico, they are cleaning up the competition.

Translation= The bastards are exporting (what should be American) jobs, exploiting already impoverished Mexican labor, and reaping the benefits in the form of consumer dollars from the Americans they screwed in the first place.  These are Bush's corporate pals, and he's giving them a superhighway and free access for Mexican trucks. 

Yeah, there needs to be more restraint.  A lot more, in the form of import tariffs.

Wow, class warfare right here on APS.  You forgot to mention the proletariat.
They are exporting jobs that cannot be done profitably in AMerica anymore, looking out for the interests of their shareholders, the owners of the company.
The are exploiting Mexican workers by offering wages and salaries far in advance of what had been available, with far better working conditions.
They are reaping the benefits of consumer dollars because consumers in the U.S. are happy to be paying 30% less for an item than they had been.

[Paddy]

Wow, class warfare right here on APS.  You forgot to mention the proletariat.

"Ahh, Jeez. Not this sh*t again!"

"Class warfare" was a term (accusation) used by George H.W. Bush (the aristocrat George I) in the 1988 election, against Michael Dukakis.   It was used again by George W. Bush (George II, heir to the throne) in the 2000 election against algore-which is laughable because they're both members of the aristocracy.
It continues in use by the bourgeoisie Rush Limbaugh, who apparently considers it some kind of pejorative.

We did all this crap over 100 years ago starting with the Grange movement of the mid 19th century, where the farmers brought monopolistic, corrupt railroads under control.  Progress continued with the rise of the labor unions limiting child and sweatshop working conditions and bringing wages into parity. The Sherman Anti Trust Act began to curb industrial monopolies.  It was exercised vigorously by Theodore Roosevelt and reaffirmed and strengthened under Woodrow Wilson.

Then the greed of the financiers imploded the stock market in 1929, screwing the common man again.  FDR took a number of steps that increased and consolidated federal power (not all of which I agree with, btw), the result of which brought us into the prosperity of the 1950's, unprecedented economic growth, and a vital middle class.

The current effort to aggregate wealth and power in the hands of a few was announced by George H.W. Bush with his 'New World Order' speech.  Thank God he only served one term.  Corporate globalism became the vehicle by which to achieve world dominance.  Clinton did nothing to quash the trend, and GWB has accelerated it to the max.

The FF did not establish a 'classless society'; neither did they envision the rise of a new aristocracy.  The largely agrarian 1700's allowed most Americans economic self sufficiency, growing or making almost everything they needed.  Industrialization and the rise of corporations instead created a state of economic dependency, with people beholden for employment, goods, and services.  Exploitive abuses by corporations in turn gave rise to the consolidation of government power.

So, yeah, if you want to call a struggle for freedom, independence and economic prosperity (for all, not just a few) 'class warfare', go ahead.

[The Rabbi]

I could call it:
The eternal struggle of the proletariat against the running dogs of capitalism.

But that would give the game away.

[Balog]

I, for one, will welcome our neocon overlords. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JS66v0poUQY

[Paddy]

could call it:
The eternal struggle of the proletariat against the running dogs of capitalism.

But that would give the game away.

I guess you missed the point.  This corporate globalist war against the middle class will lead to the election of another populist president, who will once again aggregate government power to reign in the multinationals.
None of the Republican candidates even come close to the definition of 'populist'; they're just a bunch of rich white men.  That leaves the Dems; I'll let you figure out who's closest to filling the bill.

We'll see how smug you are then. 

[The Rabbi]

Do you actually believe this stuff or are you just self-parodying?

There is no "corporate globalist war."  There is no "reigning in the multi-nationals."
These things aren't real, except on hyperventilating left-wing (or right-wing, depending) discussion boards and blogs.

The middle class is largely employed by said corporations, who could not function without them, in turn.  Corporations are largely responsible to their shareholders, who are largely middle class people.

[thebaldguy]

Can American truckers haul into and through Mexico?

I notice a lot of requests coming from Mexico are not equal to both the US and Mexico; they generally seem to benefit Mexico at our cost. Check out their immigration policies for example.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

could call it:
The eternal struggle of the proletariat against the running dogs of capitalism.

But that would give the game away.

I guess you missed the point.  This corporate globalist war against the middle class will lead to the election of another populist president, who will once again aggregate government power to reign in the multinationals.
None of the Republican candidates even come close to the definition of 'populist'; they're just a bunch of rich white men.  That leaves the Dems; I'll let you figure out who's closest to filling the bill.

We'll see how smug you are then. 

Do you even know what you're saying?

[Perd Hapley]

I really didn't want to see that far into Riley's mind.  It's troubling.  My Dad says some of the same crud.  It's all about big corporations.  WalMart is evil.  War for oil.  Ick.