Post by: Devonai on September 05, 2007, 07:48:57 PM
I also play Aces High II, which for all of it's limitations is still a decent flight simulator. Combined with my FAA Airplane Flying Handbook, 2nd Edition, I am ready to start practicing. So my question for Fly320s, Stickjockey and others is: Can I effectively practice takeoffs, landings, go-arounds, figure-eights, lazy-eights, and emergency flight procedures with a simulator or shouldn't I waste my time? This is a serious question because while it seems like realistic training to practice these things in the simulator, I have no objective point of reference.
Aces High II seems like good practice as I have had to deal with the loss of various control surfaces and landing while less than 100%. I would like to know if I am deluding myself.
Post by: S. Williamson on September 05, 2007, 11:18:40 PM
I've heard from a few people that those are harder to land than the real thing... not sure if it'll translate over, or what, but it's worth a try (and really fun!).
Post by: Jamisjockey on September 06, 2007, 02:43:08 AM
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8054026&st=flight+simulator&type=product&id=1158316224275
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8240833&type=product&id=1168044612635
Learn as much as you can about ATC. Alot of new pilots neglect to learn how to communicate properly and understand the ATC system. Thus, in a controlled environment, they end up behind the airplane and scared shitless.
http://www.amazon.com/Fundamentals-Traffic-Control-Michael-Nolan/dp/0534393888/ref=pd_sxp_grid_i_0_1/105-6596639-7065201
And lastly, weather. Learn as much as you can about weather and aviation.
http://www.amazon.com/Severe-Weather-Flying-Knowledge-Thunderstorms/dp/1560274271/ref=sr_1_4/105-6596639-7065201?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189078645&sr=1-4
Good luck, keep the rubber side down.
Post by: Leatherneck on September 06, 2007, 02:46:09 AM
Sims generally are good for drilling normal and emergency procedures, but as far as developing the actual hand-eye coordination and maneuvering skills, only the high-end total-immersion sims (motion-based especially) help develop the manual skills and familiarity needed. Useful as part of an overall syllabus, but not sufficient in their own right.
TC
Post by: JonnyB on September 06, 2007, 04:04:34 AM
If you're going for an instrument rating, the simulator would probably be quite a bit of help. I doubt it would be nearly as helpful for anything else. Unless, as was mentioned, you have access to a full-motion simulator.
You'll need actual hours of cross-country flight time for the commercial anyway, so get out there and fly! Find a 'school' with a taildragger and get signed off. Get a seaplane rating. Rent the slowest thing available; you need hours, not miles. (I own and fly a 90-horse Champ that cruises around 88mph.)
jb
Post by: Ben on September 06, 2007, 05:28:00 AM
).There was a big difference for me practicing things like go arounds and engine outs between the simulator and the real thing. And when my instructor jumped out of the plane and said, "you're on your own -- have fun." Well, I can honestly say when I turned crosswind on that first solo pattern, looked over and saw there wasn't anyone sitting next to me in case I goofed up, I had to tell my knee to stop shaking.
This is not meant to scare you away -- my knee stopped shaking, and I had a blast knowing that I was handling everything myself -- but it was DEFINITELY different than a simulator.
That being said, I work with a lot of pilots who are required to switch platforms every few years. They often receive MOST of their training in the flight school simulator for larger, complex aircraft. A buddy of mine switched from flying a Twin Otter to a Citation, and all his training was in the simulator up until they put him in the Citation as the co-pilot. For smaller, prop aircraft like the Otter and Turbo Commanders, all their training is in the plane.
Post by: RadioFreeSeaLab on September 06, 2007, 05:39:54 AM
http://x-plane.com/
Post by: charby on September 06, 2007, 05:42:02 AM
Post by: Boomhauer on September 06, 2007, 06:01:34 AM
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I'm coming into a bit of money from an inheritance in January, and I'm seriously considering pursuing my VFR, IFR and Commercial certs. I've researched a few area flight schools and had conversations with active CAP officers.
I also play Aces High II, which for all of it's limitations is still a decent flight simulator. Combined with my FAA Airplane Flying Handbook, 2nd Edition, I am ready to start practicing. So my question for Fly320s, Stickjockey and others is: Can I effectively practice takeoffs, landings, go-arounds, figure-eights, lazy-eights, and emergency flight procedures with a simulator or shouldn't I waste my time? This is a serious question because while it seems like realistic training to practice these things in the simulator, I have no objective point of reference.
Aces High II seems like good practice as I have had to deal with the loss of various control surfaces and landing while less than 100%. I would like to know if I am deluding myself.
I also play Aces High II, which for all of it's limitations is still a decent flight simulator. Combined with my FAA Airplane Flying Handbook, 2nd Edition, I am ready to start practicing. So my question for Fly320s, Stickjockey and others is: Can I effectively practice takeoffs, landings, go-arounds, figure-eights, lazy-eights, and emergency flight procedures with a simulator or shouldn't I waste my time? This is a serious question because while it seems like realistic training to practice these things in the simulator, I have no objective point of reference.
Aces High II seems like good practice as I have had to deal with the loss of various control surfaces and landing while less than 100%. I would like to know if I am deluding myself.
1) Don't bother with CAP.
2) Real flying is way, way different than the sim when it comes to the feel of the controls and what actually happens when you are in the airplane.
3) I'd go with X-Plane or FS 2004 (FS X is a system hog) for a flight simulator. It can be invaluable for practicing instrument flight and navigation. It isn't as great for the actual "feel" of flying. Use it mainly to practice your instrument work.
4) I was a Flight sim nut, but I pretty much stopped after starting actual flight training.
5) Your flight school that you choose (whether you decide to go at a local FBO or with a Part 141 school) might just have a flight sim approved for instrument training.
Oh, and the hardest part of flight training for me was radio work. Pushing the PTT might just be one of the fastest ways to turn a student pilot into a blithering idiot.
Post by: Brad Johnson on September 06, 2007, 08:59:33 AM
I let my medical expire when I moved to Lubbock. Dad sold his plane about that time and it was too expensive to rent one just for a few hours of tooling around the boonies.
Brad
Post by: Jamisjockey on September 06, 2007, 09:25:54 AM
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Oh, and the hardest part of flight training for me was radio work. Pushing the PTT might just be one of the fastest ways to turn a student pilot into a blithering idiot
That right there is funny!
We used to say that the fastest way to make a lawyer/brain surgeon/rocket scientest sound like a blabbering moron was to put them in a cessna.
Don't some of the flight sims let you practice or at least hear ATC transmissions?
PS:
Nothing will get you ignored, terminated, or vectored out of airspace faster than being an ass to ATC.
Post by: RadioFreeSeaLab on September 06, 2007, 09:28:26 AM
Post by: Brad Johnson on September 06, 2007, 09:34:42 AM
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Nothing will get you ignored, terminated, or vectored out of airspace faster than being an ass to ATC.
Doing it to ground control will get you parked in some pretty strange places, too.
Brad
Post by: Art Eatman on September 06, 2007, 09:39:22 AM
We had a local guy who'd been instructing for some 45 years or so. The price per hour was reasonable and certainly cheaper than a commercial flight school.
AFTER you get comfortable with basic VFR flying and the communications stuff, THEN get into tail-draggers and IFR study/prep and the advanced stuff. Variable-pitch props and twins and such.
I deliberately stayed with VFR: "The graveyards are full of guys who flew IFR once a month." I bought my 172 for casual sight-seeing and no-schedule cross-country. IFR conditions? Hey, I ain't goin'.
Art
Post by: Fly320s on September 06, 2007, 10:58:09 AM
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Oh, and the hardest part of flight training for me was radio work. Pushing the PTT might just be one of the fastest ways to turn a student pilot into a blithering idiot
PS:Nothing will get you ignored, terminated, or vectored out of airspace faster than being an ass to ATC.
"Put your compass on 'E' and get out of my airspace!" - Chicago controller (probably fiction, but accurate)
Devonai,
Like the others have said, a PC based Sim is not too good for VFR training. You just can't get the true visual cues you need to fly, and it enforces bad habits: too much attention to the instruments. Hopefully, your instructor will cover up all the instruments, except airspeed and altimeter, so you learn to fly without uses the instruments as a crutch.
Even the full motion, level D simulators the airlines use aren't good enough, in my opinion, to teach someone to fly visually. They are OK, but there is still a disconnect with the visual to motion coordination. They don't quite line up. I can't fly visual approaches in a sim worth a darn. But in the real plane, I can fly around without a glance at my instruments. There's more to flying than just using your vision. Hearing is also important and gives you many clues to what the plane is doing.
Once you do start your training, try to fly on a regular basis. Three to four times a week, at a minimum, will get you trained quicker and at less cost. Start hitting the books now. The knowledge you need to know will take longer to learn than your flight training.
Have fun, and ask us more questions.
Post by: Jamisjockey on September 06, 2007, 12:11:00 PM
I remember when SWA went from favored status to last in line status. Seems the pilots were trashing the airframes by flying them so hard. Short, steep approaches (IE, the Salt Lake Slam Dunk). Haul ass on final to 2 miles, throw out the anchor. Good times. Then the airline told the pilots to stop beating up the planes, and they were configured for landing on a 10 mile final. Not good when you just assigned them 170 to the marker during simultaneous I-L-S approaches, you're running minimum spacing, and they are at 110.
"SWA 123, say speed"
"We're at 110"
"SWA123, say assigned speed"
"uhhhh..."
"SWA123, cancel approach clearance, turn left heading 310, climb and maintain ten-thousand".
"Approach, why are we being revectored?"
"Failure to maintain assigned speed. I'm giving your hole to someone that wants it. "
"Approach, Skywest 456. We'll take that hole and do whatever you want"
My (ex) employer didn't have a sense of humor about it when Southwest called. I told 'em to pull the tapes and prove I did anything wrong.
I got a million of 'em....
Post by: Devonai on September 06, 2007, 12:20:49 PM
I will say that my time in Aces High has at the very least given me a step-up on very basic stuff. I've been up in single-engine aircraft several times so I'm quite aware of the lack of feel of a simulator. 'Course, I've still felt the urge to grab an air-sickness bag while tail-gunning on a Bf-110, SBM or Ju-87.
Post by: Ben on September 06, 2007, 05:30:14 PM
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I'm reading the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook with the intention of understanding everything inside,
At the risk of the other guys making fun of me, for learning a lot of the background material for the FAA written test and general knowledge, the King DVDs are pretty good. People like to make fun of the John and Martha shtick, but I really liked the interactive learning. You can often find them on Ebay.
My instructor actually recommended them as a good way to go, except for the "how to land" parts. King teaches crabbing your final, but my instructor hated that and always told me to "slip in like a man dammit".
Post by: cosine on September 06, 2007, 05:37:26 PM
You guys need to start a new thread and just tell all the funny, interesting, *whatever* stories or experiences you picked up while learning to fly, or while actually flying. Jamis could chime in too. I'll bet he has a lot of good stories.
C'mon, do it! I'm looking forward to the entertainment.
Post by: Devonai on September 06, 2007, 06:16:52 PM
Post by: Boomhauer on September 06, 2007, 06:29:55 PM
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At the risk of the other guys making fun of me, for learning a lot of the background material for the FAA written test and general knowledge, the King DVDs are pretty good. People like to make fun of the John and Martha shtick, but I really liked the interactive learning. You can often find them on Ebay.
My instructor actually recommended them as a good way to go, except for the "how to land" parts. King teaches crabbing your final, but my instructor hated that and always told me to "slip in like a man dammit". laugh
My instructor actually recommended them as a good way to go, except for the "how to land" parts. King teaches crabbing your final, but my instructor hated that and always told me to "slip in like a man dammit". laugh
I think that the King videos have good info in them, except the Kings are quite corny.
I didn't bother buying any of the video courses. Sporty's and King both sent me intro discs, so if you get those, that might help you to decide. Sporty's has some good videos, especially with Richard Collins. Your instructor will probably have some of the discs from the various companies that you might be able to borrow.
Oh, and please, please don't start the crab vs. slip, or high wing vs. low, or any of the other great debates of aviation.
As far as ground materials go, I got Rod Machado's Private Pilot Handbook, the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook, an ASA oral exam prep book, a Jeppsen Written Exam prep book, and the FAR-AIM, which I absolutely loath.
Quote
Nothing will get you ignored, terminated, or vectored out of airspace faster than being an ass to ATC.
Be polite to the controller, and keep your transmissions short and sweet. Think before you speak.
Quote
I deliberately stayed with VFR: "The graveyards are full of guys who flew IFR once a month." I bought my 172 for casual sight-seeing and no-schedule cross-country. IFR conditions? Hey, I ain't goin'.
That's the way I am, too. People are constantly asking me "when am I going to start work on my instrument". I'm not. I don't desire to fly in instrument conditions. The only flying I do right now is once or twice a month, VFR, just for fun.
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tell all the funny, interesting, *whatever* stories or experiences you picked up while learning to fly
Well, I had a cute female instructor (she is now an airline pilot).
Always, if you can, get a female instructor. Not only are they typically lighter than the male instructors, they also smell better. Especially on a hot, hot summer day.
Oh, I also made both of my sisters puke. While on separate flights. My instructor finally said that if I had any more siblings, that I had better not bring them along on lessons.
I almost got into trouble with the tower once. The controller wasn't paying much attention (slow day, Class D airspace, no traffic) and told me to use the reciprocal of the runway (35 instead of 17) that we were using. It went something like this...
Controller: Cessna 123ABC, XYZ Tower, cleared for the option, runway 35.
Me: XYZ Tower, Cessna 123ABC, Cleared for the option, runway 35.
A little while passes. I am on left base for 17 when this transmission comes, so I extend it into a crosswind and then turn downwind for 35.
Controller: Cessna 123ABC, what are your intentions?
Me: XYZ Tower, Cessna 123ABC intends to land runway 35, as per Tower's instructions.
Controller: Did I say that?...long pause...
Then he proceeded to give me a lecture on why I should always think about ATC's instructions and make sense.
My replies consisted of "Yes, sir"
Post by: Ben on September 06, 2007, 06:56:16 PM
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don't start the crab vs. slip
I actually did better crabbing than slipping, which caused my instructor no end of heartache (well, that and my tendency of near three point landings -- "PROTECT THE NOSEWHEEL" will scream in my head the rest of my life). Though slipping was often a necessity at the thermally active airport where I learned (full flaps, power off, and you'd still climb on short final), so I'm glad I became semi-proficient at both.
Post by: Boomhauer on September 06, 2007, 08:09:31 PM
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I actually did better crabbing than slipping, which caused my instructor no end of heartache (well, that and my tendency of near three point landings -- "PROTECT THE NOSEWHEEL" will scream in my head the rest of my life). Though slipping was often a necessity at the thermally active airport where I learned (full flaps, power off, and you'd still climb on short final), so I'm glad I became semi-proficient at both. Smiley
I don't think mine actually gave a damn whether I crabbed or slipped- I think she was more concerned with praying that I wouldn't crash...
Actually, my technique is kinda half and half- point the nose at the runway, keep the airplane headed toward the runway and on a good approach profile, and kinda slip it in before flare.
My instructor's favorite mantra was FLARE, FLARE, FLARE, MORE RUDDER, DAMMITT!! FLARE!
Good thing Cessna's are tough.
Post by: Jamisjockey on September 07, 2007, 02:22:36 AM
"Kingair 456, roger. Descend and maintain XXX, fly heading XXX. Whats the reason for the divert....do you require assistance?"
"Approach, no, we're okay....I've got my bird dog on board and he just took a huge dump...."
Post by: Jamisjockey on September 07, 2007, 02:39:09 AM
Unbeknownst to me, our local Congresscritter was recieving a tour of the facility.
So there I sat, busy. Very busy. I'd been busy for around an hour. And it was Sundance week. So this Learjet comes over from the Center. First thing, he wants me to accomodate his every whim. And every time he transmits, it sounds like Times Square on New Years day. Whatever big celebrity this [tinfoil] is transporting thinks its bright to throw a party at 11,000'. I stick him in line, and match his speed up to match. Nope, we're not interested in slowing down. *expletive deleted*it. Turn right 30* for spacing. Nothing. No reply. Turn right now 30* for spacing. Nothing. Third time is the charm. "Turn right immediately thirty *for spacing. Do it now or you're going to be last!" So I begin modifying the scratch pad, and flashing his tag at the next sector, while chastising the pilot that he oughta be paying attention, ass and the guy he nearly creamed would certainly appreciate his attention. HOLE Supervisor comes running over and begins jamming buttons on my assistant keypad. Which launches me into an expletive filled tirade about Supervisors, Learjets, and the Bavarian Illuminati. Promptly followed by my fellow controller's combined laughter as Congressman Matheson is shuttled out of the room, I'm relieved from my scope, and given a serious ass chewing by the Operations Manager.
Post by: Creeping Incrementalism on September 07, 2007, 03:53:20 PM
PS:
Nothing will get you ignored, terminated, or vectored out of airspace faster than being an ass to ATC.
Nothing will get you ignored, terminated, or vectored out of airspace faster than being an ass to ATC.
I always wondered, why is it okay for ATC to make smartass remarks, but not pilots?
-------------------------
Devonai, I haven't flown for a few years now, but I got single and multi engine commercial & instrument and was working on my CFI when I gradually got tired of the hassle of flying and gave it up. I think, MS Flight Sim can help you a lot even for getting your private pilot's license, even if the look and feel are different, because it helps you rehearse the simple things that fluster you when you have to concentrate of the physical motions of flying the plane. For example, what the hell am I supposed to be doing right now? It is just hard to think about ATC's instructions, or fill in info on your cross country log and make various time/distance/fuel calculations, or mess with the nav instruments, when you're still concentrating on keeping the plane straight and level.
You can get some bad habits from flight sims/games. I spent too much time staring at the instruments when I moved to real airplanes. But in my opinion you gain much more from the computer than you lose. Because I always wore sunglasses, my instructor never realized how much my head was inside the cockpit, and the more flight experience I gained the more I looked outside on my own, but I did pretty well even with that bad habit to unlearn. I think I concentrated on the feel of the controls and the sound of the prop pitch more than I looked outside, actually.
Most pilots say the instrument rating is the toughest, but for me is was definitely the easiest. I was in my element, I guess... I just am good at going from instrument to instrument, and maybe my "bad habit" helped me out there. Flight sims are fantastic for practicing this. Saves you a ton of money and time.
I think the best book to learn from are the Jepp manuals & workbooks. They were the core for me, and everything else a supplement. So go through those thoroughly and one step at a time, making sure you get just about everything before moving on.
Actually, what will help you learn the best, in my opinion, is doing nothing but flying and studying flight, as in 8 hours a day 5-6 days a week if you can get instructor and airplane availability. During a holiday break for like 7-8 when most left for home (it was a school where people from around the country & world came to fly, not a place for locals), I stayed at my flight school and my instructor was around with few others to teach, and I flew 2-3 times a day and spent the rest of the day studying or doing pre/post flight stuff. It was amazing. It was like I became a super pilot. I flew 3 times as often in the same period of time, but learned 6 times as fast.
Post by: Jamisjockey on September 08, 2007, 02:07:38 AM
Not long after Super Troopers came out, there was a Delta driver that would say "meow" at every opportunity. It was hard not to laugh.
Post by: fredflyer on September 08, 2007, 09:55:39 PM
Post by: Fly320s on September 09, 2007, 03:55:40 AM
Devonai,
Go get yourself an aviation medical/student pilot certificate. You'll need both to start training, and you'll want to know if you have any physical or medical conditions that will limit your flying. i.e: color blindness, poor vision, high blood pressure, etc.
Post by: oldguy65 on September 09, 2007, 04:43:12 AM
guess a private license now would cost 8000-$10000 to start. Find a good instructor if you aren't doing
well find another no two instructors are alike and it pays to find one you enjoy flying with.
I do believe regulations will phase out Joe average from flying within a few more years but that overall
seems the direction with most activities now.
Go sign up today you'll regret not having done it sooner.!!!
Post by: Stickjockey on September 09, 2007, 06:06:14 AM
As for study aids, I'd recommend the Jeppesen books/materials and the Gleim test prep materials.
http://www.jeppesen.com
http://www.gleim.com
Note: Take the time to learn basic navigation the old-fashioned way, including using the E6-B manual flight computer. My examiner had a serious mad-on about the guys who'd whip out the electronics, and would sit there and say, "Okay, your batteries just died. Those are dead too. Yup, and those. Uh-huh, those as well. Now what ya gonna do?"
Oh yeah; also, never use the word "hit" when talking to ATC. Trust me on this.
Post by: Boomhauer on September 09, 2007, 11:23:24 AM
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8000-$10000
I did mine on about $6, maybe less. It was spread out over time, though.
Oh, and in regards to the medical, a current medical is required to start solo flight. You don't actually have to have one for your first few lessons.
Be careful what you tell the flight doc, and consult about something before you put it down on the form. Putting the wrong thing down or wording something incorrectly can screw you up for life.
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I do believe regulations will phase out Joe average from flying within a few more years but that overall
seems the direction with most activities now.
seems the direction with most activities now.
Quite possibly. The FAA and the airlines are trying real hard this budget cycle, but the AOPA is fighting an extremely active campaign. Just remember that flying is like being a shooter- you are going to be on the losing side a lot. And the general public sympathy is going to be against you.
And the ridiculous thing about the airlines trying to crush GA is that doing so will not help them a bit- airline pilots start out in Cessna and Piper cockpits just like every other pilot.
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the old-fashioned way, including using the E6-B manual flight computer.
Oh, yes- the E6B. It looks insanely complicated at first glance, but even I could use one. And I'm not even as smart as a caveman.
I did find pilotage and dedreckoning fun, too.
Post by: Fly320s on September 09, 2007, 11:43:11 AM
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8000-$10000
Be careful what you tell the flight doc, and consult about something before you put it down on the form. Putting the wrong thing down or wording something incorrectly can screw you up for life. Quoted for emphasis. This is especially important if you've ever had a concussion.
Post by: Stickjockey on September 09, 2007, 11:58:17 AM
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I do believe regulations will phase out Joe average from flying within a few more years but that overall seems the direction with most activities now.
They won't have to work terribly hard at it; costs will do the bulk of the work.
Post by: Jamisjockey on September 09, 2007, 12:04:19 PM
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8000-$10000
Be careful what you tell the flight doc, and consult about something before you put it down on the form. Putting the wrong thing down or wording something incorrectly can screw you up for life. Quoted for emphasis. This is especially important if you've ever had a concussion.
Or if you've ever smoked a joint or had some beer.
Post by: Boomhauer on September 09, 2007, 12:26:58 PM
Post by: Devonai on September 09, 2007, 04:09:02 PM
E6B? In Aces High all I have to do is hit the ESC key to use mine!
I am curious, about something, though. In 1999 I went out for the NYPD and I got washed out because I couldn't provide medical records of a broken leg... in 1978. The Army didn't care, however. Will the flight doc or should I just leave it out?
Post by: Jamisjockey on September 09, 2007, 04:11:37 PM
Thanks for the advice on getting the medical out of the way. I'm in the New Hampshire National Guard, so I can already anticipate a clean bill of health. In fact, I've got a Periodic Health Assessment coming up next month. I'm only 30 years old, btw. I should be able to make a career out of this for a couple of decades at least.
E6B? In Aces High all I have to do is hit the ESC key to use mine!
I am curious, about something, though. In 1999 I went out for the NYPD and I got washed out because I couldn't provide medical records of a broken leg... in 1978. The Army didn't care, however. Will the flight doc or should I just leave it out?
E6B? In Aces High all I have to do is hit the ESC key to use mine!
I am curious, about something, though. In 1999 I went out for the NYPD and I got washed out because I couldn't provide medical records of a broken leg... in 1978. The Army didn't care, however. Will the flight doc or should I just leave it out?
I don't think they'll know.
You'd be surprised what medical standards will keep you from flying though. The biggest two is hearing and vision. There might be some tests the Nat G didn't do on you that the flight doc does....
Keep us posted.
Post by: Boomhauer on September 09, 2007, 06:54:58 PM
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Will the flight doc or should I just leave it out?
Don't tell them.
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I can already anticipate a clean bill of health
You can't until you actually have the medical in hand. In fact, scratch that. The FAA has a period (I think 60 days) in which they can revoke you medical.
Here is how my flight physical went:
1st- weight and blood pressure check
2nd- hearing and vision check. I actually had to use the eye charts because I couldn't pass it on the machine. The flight doc was nice enough to help me get the bare minimum I needed for a 3rd class by taking me to the chart and letting me have a couple of goes at it. I am nearsighted in my left eye; my right eye is 20/20
3rd- Pee in a cup. They then stuck a test strip in the cup to check whatever they check
4th. The doctor came in and talked to me, and signed me off for my 3rd class medical.