Author Topic: Range Safety Officers - Yay or Nay?  (Read 5733 times)

Fitz

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Range Safety Officers - Yay or Nay?
« on: September 26, 2013, 03:07:13 PM »
Continuing what I think could be an interesting discussion. I suspect that much of difference of opinion here will be related to individual units and experiences.

All in all, I think it's beneficial to have an RSO on a range or training area. They're responsible for ensuring safety without impeding training. When they do it right, it's a good thing, I think.

Then again, in my unit it's a solid NCO who is almost always tapped for RSO duty.

Although anecdote != data, I've had positive experiences in general. Especially when running ranges for non-infantry types.

In particular, I remember a 203 range we ran. Somehow, a box of de-linked Mk19 ammo made it to the ammo point. The RSO caught it.

Now, I realize that a Mk19 round won't easily chamber into a 203. I realize that you'd have to force it.

I also realize that Joe can be extremely dumb... and I'm particularly glad that oversight was caught.
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Tom Kratman

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Re: Range Safety Officers - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2013, 03:23:59 PM »
Continuing what I think could be an interesting discussion. I suspect that much of difference of opinion here will be related to individual units and experiences.

All in all, I think it's beneficial to have an RSO on a range or training area. They're responsible for ensuring safety without impeding training. When they do it right, it's a good thing, I think.

Then again, in my unit it's a solid NCO who is almost always tapped for RSO duty.

Although anecdote != data, I've had positive experiences in general. Especially when running ranges for non-infantry types.

In particular, I remember a 203 range we ran. Somehow, a box of de-linked Mk19 ammo made it to the ammo point. The RSO caught it.

Now, I realize that a Mk19 round won't easily chamber into a 203. I realize that you'd have to force it.

I also realize that Joe can be extremely dumb... and I'm particularly glad that oversight was caught.

We're almost talking apples and oranges, Fitz.  No, I take that back.  We _are_ talking apples and oranges.

There's a huge difference between an admin range and an LFX.  Admin ranges scare the bejesus out of me.  So, for that matter, can an LFX, once it's over the troops go into post adrenaline overload shutdown.  That's when stupid crap happens and that's when you need someone - RSOs - to lock everything down.  Conversely, during the LFX, provided you are doing it right and it is a good sim of actual combat (minus people shooting back), people watch out for themselves, and they must listen to one voice, their own leader, or _really_ dangerous things happen.

I am, by the way, currently writing an article for Baen on training for war.  So this, unlike a whole bunch of other things I could be but should not be doing, is not a waste.  The article will be a freebie on the Baen.com site.
 
Also, since there are currently serving NCOs on this board, it might be worth while to you, and even useful to me, to discuss a couple of things.  This may be true even for E-6Ps, who are pretty sure they already know everything, to include things they weren't there for.  ;)  It's my take; you don't have to agree.
 
Live firing is, potentially, the most valuable training we can give people.  There we can train skills - shooting, moving, communicating, planning, giving orders, supervising.  We can condition people against fear to some extent because, properly done, there's a heightened element of risk.  We can develop their problem solving ability in problems involving the use of force to overcome force.  We can test our equipment and doctrine under conditions most closely approaching war.  And we can select for leadership and elimination from service, in part because of the heightened risk.  Some will deal well with it.  Some, however, will not, particularly if you push the envelope.
 
_UNFORTUNATELY_, live firing in the Army or Marines can be, and typically is, the _worst_, the most counterproductive, training on offer.  Why?  Well how about that walk-crawl-run thing?   You know, the one where we convince the troops they and their leaders just aren't competent to fight.  It's got a place, mind you.  ONCE.  The very first time.  Ever.  But after that, having shown how to do it, to keep on with the travesty has nothing but bad effects.  And how about on site rehearsals generally?  The ones that are just so like real combnat since the enemy, being gentlemen, always lets you rehearse on his ground.  The ones that ensure leaders need not do a recon?  As they would in war?  Yeah.  Or how about giving the leader or commander the plan, rather than letting him develop his own from higher's plan..because he's just not competent...and never will be, since you won't let him even try.
 
My advice then is do it like war, or don't do it at all.

Frank Castle

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Re: Range Safety Officers - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2013, 03:26:06 PM »
Quote
In particular, I remember a 203 range we ran. Somehow, a box of de-linked Mk19 ammo made it to the ammo point. The RSO caught it.

Will the MK19 round work in the H&K M320 ?
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 03:43:29 PM by AZtoy »

Fitz

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Re: Range Safety Officers - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2013, 03:31:56 PM »
We're almost talking apples and oranges, Fitz.  No, I take that back.  We _are_ talking apples and oranges.

There's a huge difference between an admin range and an LFX.  Admin ranges scare the bejesus out of me.  So, for that matter, can an LFX, once it's over the troops go into post adrenaline overload shutdown.  That's when stupid crap happens and that's when you need someone - RSOs - to lock everything down.  Conversely, during the LFX, provided you are doing it right and it is a good sim of actual combat (minus people shooting back), people watch out for themselves, and they must listen to one voice, their own leader, or _really_ dangerous things happen.

I am, by the way, currently writing an article for Baen on training for war.  So this, unlike a whole bunch of other things I could be but should not be doing, is not a waste.  The article will be a freebie on the Baen.com site.
 
Also, since there are currently serving NCOs on this board, it might be worth while to you, and even useful to me, to discuss a couple of things.  This may be true even for E-6Ps, who are pretty sure they already know everything, to include things they weren't there for.  ;)  It's my take; you don't have to agree.
 
Live firing is, potentially, the most valuable training we can give people.  There we can train skills - shooting, moving, communicating, planning, giving orders, supervising.  We can condition people against fear to some extent because, properly done, there's a heightened element of risk.  We can develop their problem solving ability in problems involving the use of force to overcome force.  We can test our equipment and doctrine under conditions most closely approaching war.  And we can select for leadership and elimination from service, in part because of the heightened risk.  Some will deal well with it.  Some, however, will not, particularly if you push the envelope.
 
_UNFORTUNATELY_, live firing in the Army or Marines can be, and typically is, the _worst_, the most counterproductive, training on offer.  Why?  Well how about that walk-crawl-run thing?   You know, the one where we convince the troops they and their leaders just aren't competent to fight.  It's got a place, mind you.  ONCE.  The very first time.  Ever.  But after that, having shown how to do it, to keep on with the travesty has nothing but bad effects.  And how about on site rehearsals generally?  The ones that are just so like real combnat since the enemy, being gentlemen, always lets you rehearse on his ground.  The ones that ensure leaders need not do a recon?  As they would in war?  Yeah.  Or how about giving the leader or commander the plan, rather than letting him develop his own from higher's plan..because he's just not competent...and never will be, since you won't let him even try.
 
My advice then is do it like war, or don't do it at all.

No argument on most of that.

Well, any of it really. Except that I still find crawl-walk-run to be useful more than just once, considering personnel changes.

Some of the best training I ever had was training designed and conducted by us, while out in indian country, on the fob in the middle of nowhere.

Some of the worst was the godawful predeployment training we did.

I think I'm beginning to see where you're coming from, from an LFX standpoint. I felt like we were MUCH more free to do things ourselves and make mistakes when blank firing, versus live fire. I got way more out of various lanes and training events during blank than during live...

Thanks for the clarification.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 03:35:09 PM by Fitz »
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Fitz

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Re: Range Safety Officers - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2013, 03:33:49 PM »
Will the MK19 round work in the H&K M203 ?

From what I've been told, although I've never attempted or witnessed it, it can get in there with some force.

That said... the Mk19 is heavy steel. The 203 is aluminum. Mk19 rounds have more ass to em... what's the range? greater than 2000 meters compared to 400 or so from the 203?

My gut feeling is that if joe managed to get it chambered, he would be in a world of hurt.
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41magsnub

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Re: Range Safety Officers - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2013, 03:34:19 PM »
Will the MK19 round work in the H&K M203 ?

Once...

Tom Kratman

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Re: Range Safety Officers - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2013, 03:34:45 PM »
Will the MK19 round work in the H&K M203 ?

Their site says "longer, non-lethal rounds," but I can't find a definitive "just how long is longer?"  It also says 40x46, but that's standard 203 ammo, not at all longer.  So it wouldn't be much, 7 mm, to allow it to fit a disastrously overstrength round.

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Re: Range Safety Officers - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2013, 03:36:34 PM »
Is the H&K you speak of this?

M320?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M320_Grenade_Launcher_Module

Haven't handled it yet.


EDIT: Ok. So on this, i have no idea.

AZToy, when you said 203, I assumed you meant the 203. This guy has a new designation.
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Re: Range Safety Officers - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2013, 03:39:00 PM »
Their site says "longer, non-lethal rounds," but I can't find a definitive "just how long is longer?"  It also says 40x46, but that's standard 203 ammo, not at all longer.  So it wouldn't be much, 7 mm, to allow it to fit a disastrously overstrength round.

I suspect that, similar to the 203, other rounds can and are longer, past the case itself. Like the star clusters and flares, for example.

So, my suspicion is that the cases are the same size for all of those. Flares/clusters are tapered so they can fit into the barrel
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Frank Castle

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Re: Range Safety Officers - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2013, 03:44:18 PM »
Yes , the m320 .

My bad !

Tom Kratman

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Re: Range Safety Officers - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2013, 03:44:36 PM »
No argument on most of that.

Well, any of it really. Except that I still find crawl-walk-run to be useful more than just once, considering personnel changes.

Some of the best training I ever had was training designed and conducted by us, while out in indian country, on the fob in the middle of nowhere.

Some of the worst was the godawful predeployment training we did.

I think I'm beginning to see where you're coming from, from an LFX standpoint. I felt like we were MUCH more free to do things ourselves and make mistakes when blank firing, versus live fire. I got way more out of various lanes and training events during blank than during live...

Thanks for the clarification.

When you're doing it 13 times a month (never had the ammo in my own company to do more than 5 in a month (or maybe six once), and usually 2-3, and I was still doing more than half the infantry LFXs in the 24th ID), then there never really are a bunch of newbies who need retraining.  If, on the other hand, it's been six or twelve months and nobody has a clue, sure, do the C-W-R.  Understand, though, that it is _bad_ training, really bad, unless you move on from there to more realistic problems.  We almost never do.

I broke my own rule on no on site rehearsals just once.  That was for the tire house, first time, with live frags, and we were going to cook off the frags.  I know that sends people into shock, but overall, yes, it's safer, better training, too, to cook them a little, 2 seconds, than risk a bounce back.  Yes, it's still risky but, My GOD, you're using frags!  There's already quite a bit of risk.  Even then, though, I had the squads make rehearsal areas away from the tire house, and use those (engineer tape and stakes to divide off rooms), too, so they didn't get the idea that on site rehearsals were cool.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 04:08:36 PM by Tom Kratman »

Fitz

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Re:
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2013, 03:53:54 PM »
Few ideas in the military are as terrible as on site rehearsals

If I was emperor for the day, I would tell commanders that if they wanted an authentic mockup, they could build one themselves
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Re:
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2013, 04:06:56 PM »
Few ideas in the military are as terrible as on site rehearsals

If I was emperor for the day, I would tell commanders that if they wanted an authentic mockup, they could build one themselves

Interestingly, when I was between commands, having just given up my rifle company and while still inventorying HHC (old style, J Series, 371 mo fos worth, counting me and the CSM but not the colonel; gentlemen, I was effectively commanding a battlaion as a captain...kinda), the colonel asked me if I could squeeze in some LFXs for the battalion while my predecessor in command was making up property shortages, which were vast. 

We did, running every platoon through a night ambush, a movement to contact, a deliberate attack, and a hasty defense a few hundred meters past the deliberate attack, in about two weeks. I say, "Everybody," but in fact there were two (of twelve) platoons that, for scheduling reasons at echelons above Kratman could only do three of the four.  Anyway...they were really nice, with the deliberate attack fighting its way through an AT wall, an AT ditch, a standard but deep Soviet low density minefield, supplementary, tactical and protective wire, with vulcans engaging ARCATS overhead and supported by ITVs firing live TOWs, medevac, moulaged casualties, all culminating in having to clear a Soviet style trench system.  And DIVARTY was having their ARTEPs so there were _continuous_ 155s flying overhead.  For weeks.  Ah...memories...light the corners...

Oh, where was I?  Ah, yes, rehearsals.  I wouldn't let them rehearse any of it on site, but did have the engineers build another, not quite identical, trench system for them to rehearse on.  I commend that approach, generally.

Fitz

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Re:
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2013, 04:22:24 PM »
And now I have a hard on


*expletive deleted*ck you, kratman :-)

Stories like that make me want to return to active duty


Then I look at my pay, and I'm alright without active duty
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Re:
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2013, 04:25:53 PM »
Back to the topic, what is the solution to the problem of RSOs? I maintain that for every officer capable of training his company without them there are more who would *expletive deleted*ck up colossally.
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Tom Kratman

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Re:
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2013, 04:29:43 PM »
And now I have a hard on


*expletive deleted* you, kratman :-)

Stories like that make me want to return to active duty


Then I look at my pay, and I'm alright without active duty

I'd like to be able to take credit for the 155s, but that was just fortuitous.

On the other hand, I did have the engineers blast craters around the trench system because a) there had been a notional (not entirely notional, we set off some demo from a distance) prep of the objective and b) it gave the troops covered positions to fire and maneuver from, such as they'd have had in real war.  

By the way, something that is sort of counterintuitive about live fires; the more realistic and complex you make them, the more it slows down the action.  The more you can slow the action, the more you can trust the chain of command to keep control and the more you can trust yourself to identify a problem before someone is killed, if they can't keep control.  So wire, mines, trenches, booby traps, ditches, walls?  Those all add realism and slow things down, making them inherently safer.  

Tom Kratman

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Re:
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2013, 04:33:05 PM »
Back to the topic, what is the solution to the problem of RSOs? I maintain that for every officer capable of training his company without them there are more who would *expletive deleted* up colossally.

Well, again, _where_ and _for_what_?  Admin range?  No question, no problem.  LFX, during the course of it, past that once in a very long time crawl-walk-run? Relieve the SOB for moral cowardice and incompetence.

Course, that's easy to say.  I had some pretty vast advantages as a captain because of where I'd been a lieutenant and sergeant.  Most people don't get that.  So...work on the school system more, I suppose.

Fitz

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Re:
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2013, 04:37:06 PM »
Well, again, _where_ and _for_what_?  Admin range?  No question, no problem.  LFX, during the course of it, past that once in a very long time crawl-walk-run? Relieve the SOB for moral cowardice and incompetence.

Course, that's easy to say.  I had some pretty vast advantages as a captain because of where I'd been a lieutenant and sergeant.  Most people don't get that.  So...work on the school system more, I suppose.

The schoolhouse is terrible

I really feel that the army's officer programs are producing automatons, not leaders
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Re:
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2013, 04:43:40 PM »
The schoolhouse is terrible

I really feel that the army's officer programs are producing automatons, not leaders

We don't select well.  We never have.  Rather, we don't select well for military purposes.  On the other hand, we select, usually, quite well for political reliability - never had a coup, after all.  This can work, by the way.  Rome did quite well with politically reliable commanders and first class non-coms.

This would be less of a military problem if we developed a better NCO corps.  But to do that, they'd have to be given more leeway and authority.  Since WW II, when we elected to keep way too many officers on hand, officers have been doing way too much and allowing the non-coms to do too little, too many of whom are happy doing too little.  I'll be glad to tell the story of how to fix that, if you like.

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Re:
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2013, 04:53:12 PM »
The schoolhouse is terrible

I really feel that the army's officer programs are producing automatons, not leaders

  Hmmmm- well , that could be useful in certain circumstances.........
 
 

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Re:
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2013, 04:59:42 PM »
  Hmmmm- well , that could be useful in certain circumstances.........
 
 

Perhaps, but they make such dull drinking companions.

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Re:
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2013, 05:04:33 PM »
  Hmmmm- well , that could be useful in certain circumstances.........
 
 

Agreed.  I'm at the stage where I'm quite happy with "other than the best and brightest" being the ones with the shiny badges and force of State.
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Re:
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2013, 05:10:55 PM »
Agreed.  I'm at the stage where I'm quite happy with "other than the best and brightest" being the ones with the shiny badges and force of State.

You do not want mindless automatons commanding infantry units

There is literally no possible way that works out well for anyone
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Re: Range Safety Officers - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2013, 06:14:09 PM »
Are we talking only military ranges here, or ranges in general? I don't really have an opinion on military ranges; I lack the sufficient experience to form one. But for civilian ranges, I think it heavily depends on how busy it is. Small ranges where few people will be using them simultaneously can get by without an RSO just fine. On larger, busy ranges, an RSO becomes more necessary.
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Scout26

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Re: Range Safety Officers - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2013, 06:14:47 PM »
Going back to my days as an MP Platoon Leader in Baumholder, In order to fire on MTA each firing unit had to provide a trained OIC (for small arms E-7 and above) and Safety Officer (IIRC for small arms E-6 and above) to run the ranges.   I always made sure my Platoon Sergeant and I were qualified* as OIC's and my Squad Leaders as SO's.  I may have been the OIC, but by NCO's ran the ranges.  

Since according to USAREUR 350-1 we, as MP's, had to qualify with our sidearms, quarterly, I always used the range opportunity to also practice/qualify on the M16 and M60 Machine gun.

Apparently no one up at company had read USAREUR 350-1, so the rest of the company was simply doing once a year quals.  No training/practice sessions, just the once a year La-de-da-de everybody to the range to qualify flustercluck.  My platoon was able to avoid said clusters, because I could show that my troops were qualified.  However, my PSG and I were not so lucky and ended up running ranges for the company, because "We knew how to do it."  Usually either at the BK or Mannheim local ranges, because if you didn't request a range at Baumholder 90 days out at the quarterly Range Scheduling Conference you were SOL, yes, even if you are the company commander, and no, the Germans don't care about your USR.    

My platoon also did the Waldkampfbahn several times, when I was able to scrounge some plastic ammo.  Very similar to an LFX in that it's a shoot and move course through wooded, somewhat hilly, terrain and shooting pop-up targets.  If they get our of position, well, it wouldn't have looked good on my OER.  In fact, my last Company Commander almost *expletive deleted* himself when he saw it on the training schedule, asked what it was, I explained it.  Needless to say he cancelled it.  Same guy that got the vapors when he found out that I broke open the sealed ammo crate in my arms room and issued the bayonets out to my troops when we went to the field.  He had them sealed after his change of command inventory, can you say, "Not a risk taker."   Also made me store my shotguns in the arms room, and I could only take them out to shoot trap and skeet at the Baumholder Rod & Gun Club on weekends if I said "Mother May I?" the week prior. Also I could only get the from the Arms Room if there was a shift change going on and the CQ and his Runner opened it (usually around 6 am).  I also had to return it as soon as I was done shooting, whether or not a shift change was occurring.   Let's just say.  He was not a "gun guy".  He did make O-6, simply by not ever making a mistake in his career and ensuring that any "errors" were pinned on his subordinates.




*Qualification consisting of spending an afternoon listening to a Bundeswehr Officer haranguing us about what American units had done in the past to piss him off.  And a copy of the 116 page Baumholder MTA SOP #2 with appendices A through V.  The first page being a letter from the Baumholder MILCOM commander explaining the if you piss off the Germans you'll be on the carpet in his office and it won't be fun.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 07:31:29 PM by scout26 »
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Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.