Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: AZRedhawk44 on April 17, 2013, 11:05:28 AM
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I had posted this, in the Boston bomb thread:
Two very interesting links at Drudge:
http://freebeacon.com/al-qaeda-link-probed/
An AQ magazine suggested using pressure cookers in 2010.
http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/04/16/saudi_national_no_longer_person_of_interest_in_boston_bombings_no_other_suspects
No suspects.
A big part of me hopes this event goes unsolved.
Why? How could I be so callous to justice?
I'm tired of nannyism. You just can't prevent everything. You can't buy security. You have to earn it. And maybe something like this going unsolved would cause New England and other parts of the US that aren't "flyover" to start taking accountability for individual actions and security rather than shoving more collectivism down my throat.
But they're probably more likely to just go London/Orwellian and throw a bunch of cameras, random van-mounted backscatter X-ray machines, obligatory frisks and searches and other things that make me stay away from "their" cities.
Check this article out.
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20130417/DA5N4K100.html
Despite the tragedies the United States has faced in recent years, Ruben says the nation as a whole is "still at the stage of a great deal of naivete."
Ruben was two weeks old when her parents fled Iraq in 1950. She was going to high school outside Tel Aviv in 1967, when Israel launched a pre-emptive strike against Egyptian forces in what has come to be known as the Six-Day War.
"The Western mind cannot really perceive the will to lose life, to kill yourself, to send your children with a complete purpose of killing yourself and others," the 62-year-old New Jersey woman says. "This is a concept that is so foreign to the democratic American mind, even though 9/11 happened right in the heart of America. It raped America in such a violent way. I don't see that that is interpreted as something that really exists and can come to here and hit home in such a way - that it's an isolated case, that there are excuses for that, that they were disturbed people."
American parents have long warned their children "not to talk to strangers." In Israel, Ruben notes, television ad campaigns instruct kids on how to spot a suspicious package, and to report it.
Her two adult daughters live there now, and it is nothing to them to have their bags inspected or to automatically pop their trunks before driving into a mall parking structure.
"It's so much part of the culture, and you don't even blink," she says. "They know that they need to do these things in order to be safe."
You decadent, self-centered Americans. With your expectations of privacy and self ownership. How dare you not accept random friskings in public? Why are you not civilized like the rest of the brutish world?
Watch this dialogue continue. Whether 2A related, 4A related or whatever. It's all about ownership. Do you own you? Or does the State?
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I fully expect to see this become the norm for major sporting events. You already have to do this to enter "closed" events like the Olympics. Expect to see entire marathon routes become safety corridors requiring copious amounts of cash to secure. The true victim in these attacks is always freedom.
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I fully expect to see this become the norm for major sporting events. You already have to do this to enter "closed" events like the Olympics. Expect to see entire marathon routes become safety corridors requiring copious amounts of cash to secure. The true victim in these attacks is always freedom.
Yeah, I haven't been to a major sporting event in 10 years because I am not cool with the level of molestation at the security checkpoint.
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Yeah, I haven't been to a major sporting event in 10 years because I am not cool with the level of molestation at the security checkpoint.
FWIW I've been to the Relian Staidum complex for a number of events, and its not quite to the molestation level. The Houston Rodeo attracts an insanely large crowd, and you can stroll in with a backpack or stroller unsearched and unmolsested. I worry how long that will last.
Just last year, TSA viper teams were doing random searches on Metro here in Texas. (supposedly with the searchee's consent ;/) It won't take long for the long reaching tentacles of the federal government to decide on a crowd limit before they allow the state/local/venue authorities to continue to direct security.
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I agree with the article's point that "we" are naive. Even in domestic incidents like the school shootings, the society as a whole does this eyes-glazed-over denial routine where "things like this don't happen" or "aren't supposed to happen". The consequence is total lack of effective action, because preparing for the fact that these things obviously DO happen would require acknowledging and coming to grips with that FACT that people do go out and deliberately kill people who don't deserve it. It might also require people to consider the issues of guilt and blame. As long as these are 'isolated incidents' and due to 'mental illness' then we don't have to face the reality that some people are evil and are motivated to kill other, innocent people.
The problem with this in America is that "addressing the problem" always addresses the wrong problem, ineffectively, with a high cost to individual rights, but this is because of the denial. It's obvious that TSA does not actually expect to find explosives, because their procedures are incapable of dealing with any explosives they actually do find. It's obvious that schools don't actually expect to deal with an armed shooter, because the procedures are incapable of dealing with such in any way. This situation arises and remains because in a society which is in the naive/denial stage.
A society that is used to people killing for ideological reasons has been pushed past the denial stage and into the "address the problem" stage. The sooner we push past the denial stage into the reality stage, maybe we will get some rational cost/benefit analyses on prevention measures.
I'm not against having to have my trunk searched before being allowed to park in a mall parking garage. I just think that it needs to be the mall's security requiring the searching, and not the government.
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I'm not against having to have my trunk searched before being allowed to park in a mall parking garage. I just think that it needs to be the mall's security requiring the searching, and not the government.
...And what if you're the type of guy that keeps a long gun in your trunk or behind the seat?
Now you're getting harassed by rent-a-cops for having a perfectly normal and innocuous thing in your car.
What if you have something valuable in your trunk? Now you have low paid mall security knowing about your valuables, as well as having access to any on-site surveillance computers or DVR's, able to delete footage of them stealing your property.
Our society and our economy will choke itself to death if we embrace a security state in response to bombings.
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...And what if you're the type of guy that keeps a long gun in your trunk or behind the seat?
Now you're getting harassed by rent-a-cops for having a perfectly normal and innocuous thing in your car.
What if you have something valuable in your trunk? Now you have low paid mall security knowing about your valuables, as well as having access to any on-site surveillance computers or DVR's, able to delete footage of them stealing your property.
Then you don't shop there if it's not worth it to you. Do you want laws stating that places of business HAVE to allow you entry under your own terms?
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Then you don't shop there if it's not worth it to you. Do you want laws stating that places of business HAVE to allow you entry under your own terms?
When it comes to being able to search me, and my vehicle with no reasonable cause, yes.
If police can't frisk me or search my car without due process, then privatized security shouldn't be able to do so either.
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When it comes to being able to search me, and my vehicle with no reasonable cause, yes.
If police can't frisk me or search my car without due process, then privatized security shouldn't be able to do so either.
If it's rent a cops, you can always leave.
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When it comes to being able to search me, and my vehicle with no reasonable cause, yes.
If police can't frisk me or search my car without due process, then privatized security shouldn't be able to do so either.
your phrase for the day
private property
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I LOVE FREEDOM! FREEDOM FREEDOM FREEDOM! Except when it comes to property rights. People shouldn't be able to specify what kind of security they want on their own property. *expletive deleted*ck that.
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So if Safeway grocery stores have a policy to frisk every customer that walks in for concealed pistols and explosive belts, you're good with that? ;/ Really?
You? Your wife? Your 12 year old daughter? Your developmentally disabled 8 year old? That rape victim over there?
To buy GROCERIES!?!
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So if Safeway grocery stores have a policy to frisk every customer that walks in for concealed pistols and explosive belts, you're good with that? ;/ Really?
No, and others wouldn't be either. And they'd fail as folks went to Giant, Food Lion, whatever.
Free market.
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No, and others wouldn't be either. And they'd fail as folks went to Giant, Food Lion, whatever.
Free market.
That's cute, but not how it works.
Giant, Albertsons, Fry's, Fred Meyer, Tom Thumb, Safeway, Thriftway, Walmart... they'd all hold a conference to decide on a uniform way to do it.
They'd kill the free market either by collaborative lobbying of Congress, or by collusion.
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The difference is, private property versus government compulsory security measures. If a private business wants me to submit to a humiliating search, I don't have to do business with them. When the government mandates it, they do so under force of law.
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The difference is, private property versus government compulsory security measures. If a private business wants me to submit to a humiliating search, I don't have to do business with them. When the government mandates it, they do so under force of law.
sounds libertarian
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So if Safeway grocery stores have a policy to allow CCW? you're good with that? ;/ Really?
THINK OF THE CHILDREN
To buy GROCERIES!?!
Your arguments sound eerily familiar.
Either you're for rights or you're not. Government has no place in deciding what sort of screening/security happens at a private business.
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Your arguments sound eerily familiar.
Either you're for rights or you're not. Government has no place in deciding what sort of screening/security happens at a private business.
www.delta.com
www.southwest.com
www.aa.com
www.united.com
www.usairways.com
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www.delta.com
www.southwest.com
www.aa.com
www.united.com
www.usairways.com
I don't believe in the TSA's mission either. I've said over and over again that it's security theater.
How does posting a bunch of urls negate what I said?
Are you saying you're OK with the gov mandating that the airlines/airports conduct invasive searches?
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Oh i get it. You're ALL FOR government using force to coerce people, just as long as the coercion fits YOUR worldview.
Got it
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You made the statement that government has no place in deciding what sort of screening/security happens at a private business.
I negated the truth of that statement.
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your phrase for the day
private property
Bolded is my emphasis.
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You made the statement that government has no place in deciding what sort of screening/security happens at a private business.
I negated the truth of that statement.
No, you didn't. Government has NO PLACE deciding those things. The fact that they have done it, when it's NOT THEIR PLACE, is irrelevant.
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Oh i get it. You're ALL FOR government using force to coerce people, just as long as the coercion fits YOUR worldview.
Got it
lulz, no.
Just pointing out that free market collusion between competitors can result in effective coercion of the populace.
It won't just be Safeway giving your teen daughter the pat-down while Albertsons is live-and-let-live. They'll both enact the same policy at the same time. And they'll do their damnedest to try and scapegoat the action on some feel-good legislation passed by Congress to mandate pat-downs in "commerce facilities capable of holding more than 100 people as inspected by the local fire marshall" or some fluff like that, which they lobbied for in the first place.
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lulz, no.
Just pointing out that free market collusion between competitors can result in effective coercion of the populace.
It won't just be Safeway giving your teen daughter the pat-down while Albertsons is live-and-let-live. They'll both enact the same policy at the same time. And they'll do their damnedest to try and scapegoat the action on some feel-good legislation passed by Congress to mandate pat-downs in "commerce facilities capable of holding more than 100 people as inspected by the local fire marshall" or some fluff like that, which they lobbied for in the first place.
:-|
So, the free market is good when it suits you.
But not when it doesn't.
Got it.
Statist
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Statist
:P
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lulz, no.
Just pointing out that free market collusion between competitors can result in effective coercion of the populace.
It won't just be Safeway giving your teen daughter the pat-down while Albertsons is live-and-let-live. They'll both enact the same policy at the same time. And they'll do their damnedest to try and scapegoat the action on some feel-good legislation passed by Congress to mandate pat-downs in "commerce facilities capable of holding more than 100 people as inspected by the local fire marshall" or some fluff like that, which they lobbied for in the first place.
And then I do all my grocery shopping online. Until one dying store gets the bright idea to stop frisking their customers.
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Used to have Safeway deliver groceries for a while.
That's kinda neat!
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Used to have Safeway deliver groceries for a while.
That's kinda neat!
Giant in Virginia does that.
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Amazon Fresh does here in the Seattle-ish area, and they do a darn good job of it too. I've gotta think their business would expand enormously if the grocery marts did TSA style groping.
But you've gotta understand, all grocery stores operate on razor, razor thin margins. There's no way they'd all play nice and agree to it, they're just not able to offer an effective enough monopoly.
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Groceries, clothing, auto dealerships, whatever. Doesn't matter the market.
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Groceries, clothing, auto dealerships, whatever. Doesn't matter the market.
I suppose it isn't technically impossible, but it'd be incredibly difficult to muster anything like a true monopoly these days. Aside from utilities etc, and that's more a practical matter of infrastructure. But they'd also need to somehow outlaw internet commerce, which isn't terribly practical and would certainly piss off many millions of folks.
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Groceries, clothing, auto dealerships, whatever. Doesn't matter the market.
Your experience with real business differs with mine
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I just have to hug myself reading you go at 4A "infringement" by private property owners without getting all twisted up about those same private property owners "infringing" all over 2A.
That's not to say that I am all for private property owners groping me whenever they feel like it. Someone tries to engage in inappropriate behavior with me - especially at that intimate a level - will be finding out that there are ways to put a stop to the rudeness without yelling "Constituutional Rights!!11ELEVENTY11!!" If a magistrate will not issue a warrant for assault/assault&battery there is always small clasims court for damages for having suffered the tort of assault.
It's going to be a hard row to hoe when 97% of the population either eagerly participates or grudgingly allows it. More than likely what it will take is an "event" that boldly demonstrates that security theater was not sufficient to save us - and then 99% of the 97% are going to start demaning answers about what wewnt wrong. It will not be pretty and that crowd will not be patient.
stay safe.
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Groceries, clothing, auto dealerships, whatever. Doesn't matter the market.
It does matter. People can go for a long time without new clothes or cars. Clothes can be had from thrift stores and yard sales. People can keep driving their old cars, or shop the classified section, Craigslist, whatever.
Groceries are different, but in urban areas you'll have small, independent grocery stores, kosher delis, Mexican groceries, farmers' markets, bakeries, convenience stores, restaurants. Rural folks would be able to grow their own, hunt, etc.
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This thread is making my eyes roll.
Seriously, private property is private property is private property.
Are we so much more special then the people who own and operate these stores, so we can tell someone if you have such and such you can't come on my property, but they can't?
AZ, don't be a bloody hypocryte. It's just sad.
Darn. My eyes rolled so much, I have a bit of a headache...
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This thread is making my eyes roll.
Seriously, private property is private property is private property.
Are we so much more special then the people who own and operate these stores, so we can tell someone if you have such and such you can't come on my property, but they can't?
AZ, don't be a bloody hypocryte. It's just sad.
Darn. My eyes rolled so much, I have a bit of a headache...
"Private property" becomes really damned fuzzy when you're dealing with corporations that trade ownership on the stock market and everyone owns a piece of that particular company... and therefore its "private" property.
"Private property" also means a hell of a lot less when it isn't accompanied by a "no trespassing" sign. ;/
When your goal is to advertise and entice people to visit your particular venue, the notion of visitorial discretion and illicit materials on private property really goes out the window. It's the whole "private" thing. You want it private, then keep it membership-based like Costco. If you're "open to the public" then it's just stupid.
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"Private property" becomes really damned fuzzy when you're dealing with corporations that trade ownership on the stock market and everyone owns a piece of that particular company... and therefore its "private" property.
"Private property" also means a hell of a lot less when it isn't accompanied by a "no trespassing" sign. ;/
When your goal is to advertise and entice people to visit your particular venue, the notion of visitorial discretion and illicit materials on private property really goes out the window. It's the whole "private" thing. You want it private, then keep it membership-based like Costco. If you're "open to the public" then it's just stupid.
So, government intervention is needed to fight this stupidity?
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So, government intervention is needed to fight this stupidity?
Government isn't needed at all, IMO.
But since we have government and these jackals like to use government as a scapegoat for the policies they lobby for, then we need government laws that prohibit their collusion to strip us of dignity vis-a-vis searches when entering malls or stores, or similar behavior.
ETA: Do you REALLY think that Delta/Southwest/American/et cetera really gave a frak whether or not security was enhanced at airports? They're just glad it's uniform and no one has a choice in the matter. If consumers had a choice, the most secure places places with the most security theater that violates peoples' sensibilities would go out of business.
ETA2: This is the root of fascism. Corporations dictating societal behavior by proxy of government force. The air industry is essentially a fascist industry. Same with professional sports. Shall we go for shopping malls next?
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So the solution to fascism is more government?
But government isn't needed
But we need government to step in
You're all over the place on this one
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So the solution to fascism is more government?
But government isn't needed
But we need government to step in
You're all over the place on this one
SUPPOSEDLY ;/, law acts as a restraint on power. I had to choke down a little bit of vomit as I typed that, but that's the premise behind our Constitution and most of our laws that are supposed to be worth a damn.
That entire legal codex is obviously either impotent, or even worse: an enabler of authoritarian coercion. The results speak for themselves.
The only two choices here, right now, are to throw out the whole damned thing (my preferred choice), or to write yet another law to protect individuals from corporate fascism and collusion. BEFORE these industries conspire and collude and lobby for things in their favor rather than ours.
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Throw it all out. Beats your oppressive statist solution ;-)
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So then AZ where does the government stop telling businesses located on private property what they can and can't do? If they can set their security practices, to what extent can they set or constrain them? What other areas can they do so?
And so what if a bunch of stores get together to implement such measures at once, what's to stop you from exercising your own free market solution? Open AZ's Gropeless Groceries. If enough people don't want a free groping you'll make a killing.
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ETA: Do you REALLY think that Delta/Southwest/American/et cetera really gave a frak whether or not security was enhanced at airports? They're just glad it's uniform and no one has a choice in the matter.
Actually, the airlines like TSA because it's easier for them to let the feds handle security. I don't know exactly how it's all paid for, but it saves the airlines a load of cash.
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"AZ Gropeless"
That actually has a somewhat familiar ring to it, if you are an old time Arizona resident =D
;)
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"AZ Gropeless"
That actually has a somewhat familiar ring to it, if you are an old time Arizona resident =D
;)
I thought it had a nice ring to it
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I'd buy my furniture at Ungroped Arizona.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fc5Byusp.jpg&hash=d9804b6f8719766dc11a5c58c4b89e219a85bb4f)
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I thought it had a nice ring to it
There is or used to be an "AJ Bayless" grocery chain in Arizona. ;)
At one time it was the closest to where we lived - only two or three miles away. That was back when much of the valley was still onion, lettuce, etc fields.
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There is or used to be an "AJ Bayless" grocery chain in Arizona. ;)
At one time it was the closest to where we lived - only two or three miles away. That was back when much of the valley was still onion, lettuce, etc fields.
Probably part of the Basha's chain now, morphed into "AJ's Fine Foods."
Basha's operates 3 tiers of grocery stores out of AZ: AJ's, Basha's and Food City. AJ's is their hoity-toity top tier stuff, Basha's is comparable to Safeway or Albertsons, and Food City is kind of like if a "dollar store" was a grocery store.
Ha! Google and Wiki strike again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AJ%27s_Fine_Foods
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So then AZ where does the government stop telling businesses located on private property what they can and can't do? If they can set their security practices, to what extent can they set or constrain them? What other areas can they do so?
And so what if a bunch of stores get together to implement such measures at once, what's to stop you from exercising your own free market solution? Open AZ's Gropeless Groceries. If enough people don't want a free groping you'll make a killing.
My core biyatch here, guys, is that the government CAN already tell businesses what security they can/can't have.
It's called the airport.
It seems that government sets security standards for what security MUST be present, and never seems to give a frak about the freedom of the rest of us to be left alone from the groping. Moar s'kuritee is always the rally cry.
There's currently no consumer protection against over-zealous security.
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My core biyatch here, guys, is that the government CAN already tell businesses what security they can/can't have.
It's called the airport.
It seems that government sets security standards for what security MUST be present, and never seems to give a frak about the freedom of the rest of us to be left alone from the groping. Moar s'kuritee is always the rally cry.
There's currently no consumer protection against over-zealous security.
Except, you weren't talking about the airport.
You were talking about parking garages and grocery stores and private security.
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Except, you weren't talking about the airport.
You were talking about parking garages and grocery stores and private security.
Gropers always want more to grope. TSA begets VIPR begets sports venue groping begets mall groping begets high school groping begets middle school groping begets....
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I agree with the article's point that "we" are naive. Even in domestic incidents like the school shootings, the society as a whole does this eyes-glazed-over denial routine where "things like this don't happen" or "aren't supposed to happen". The consequence is total lack of effective action, because preparing for the fact that these things obviously DO happen would require acknowledging and coming to grips with that FACT that people do go out and deliberately kill people who don't deserve it. It might also require people to consider the issues of guilt and blame. As long as these are 'isolated incidents' and due to 'mental illness' then we don't have to face the reality that some people are evil and are motivated to kill other, innocent people.
The Sandy Hook massacre illustrated this perfectly. Immediately after the shooting, it was reported that Sandy Hook Elementary school had just this [school] year installed a new security system that was "designed to prevent this type of incident." That system, of course, was the locked front entrance door and the buzzer. And, to prove the naivete theorem, it clearly never occurred to anyone in Newtown that an evil-doer might not just walk away if not buzzed in, but might actually just shoot of the glass doors or sidelights and reach through the opening to unlatch the door.
To compound the idiocy, AFTER Sandy Hook I have read articles citing multiple school distracts that are praising themselves for deciding to install the same type of system that failed so spectacularly at Sandy Hook.
There's a young man who shoots fairly regularly at the range where I shoot. He happens to work as a locksmith. We have discussed school security in the wake of sandy Hook. His work takes him to schools all over the county. He reports that getting into any school is just not a problem. Either a teacher leaves a door propped open to sneak outside for a smoke, or the back door to the kitchen or the shop area is left unsecured, or -- he just knocks on a back door and somebody opens it, no questions asked.
Yeppers, I would say that as a society we are naive. (That sounds much nicer than "stupid.")
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The Sandy Hook massacre illustrated this perfectly. Immediately after the shooting, it was reported that Sandy Hook Elementary school had just this [school] year installed a new security system that was "designed to prevent this type of incident." That system, of course, was the locked front entrance door and the buzzer. And, to prove the naivete theorem, it clearly never occurred to anyone in Newtown that an evil-doer might not just walk away if not buzzed in, but might actually just shoot of the glass doors or sidelights and reach through the opening to unlatch the door.
My kids' school (private) principal had a guy from the local Big City PD SWAT Team do a security run-through and list suggestions. He seems like a decent guy, but has a bad case of "Why don't you leave this to the professionals, Ma'am?"
The suggestions amount to a slight hardening of the campus against petty thieves not willing to do damage to enter. None of his suggestions would do anything to stop or slow down a motivated mass-murderer.
I didn't have the heart to stand beside the fellowship hall / cafeteria, pick up a flag stone, and make like I tossed it at the 3' wide, 8' tall windows at ground level, and then mime walking forward and making the gun symbol with my hand. Because if I were a bad guy, lunch time is show time.
Of course Big City SWAT dude wrote that armed teachers or parents were a liability. If he were referring to Big City PD officers, he'd be right. I have seen them "train." :O