Author Topic: Lawmaker: On welfare? No beer or HBO for you  (Read 16241 times)

Grandpa Shooter

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,079
Lawmaker: On welfare? No beer or HBO for you
« on: February 10, 2010, 12:21:18 AM »
This has got to be about the most ridiculous attempt at a stupid law I have ever seen.  The premise is good, but how the h*** he thinks it could ever be enforced is beyond me.   Duh?

The way Frank Antenori sees it, you shouldn't be smoking or drinking if the government is helping to pay for your food or health care.

And you shouldn't be buying an expensive TV or car, shouldn't have a cell phone unless it's your only phone and shouldn't have cable TV with HBO or Showtime.

The Tucson Republican is sponsoring legislation to make public assistance off-limits to those who do not comply.

As crafted, HB2770 would be pretty much self-enforcing. Welfare recipients would have to sign an affidavit each time they go through eligibility screening, promising to live within the rules.

Antenori said, though, this is just the first step. He wants the Department of Economic Security to craft rules to actually enforce the restrictions.

But that doesn't mean welfare recipients can ignore the requirements in the interim. Antenori said he foresees a system where people report those they see at the grocery store using food stamps and then pulling out cash for that bottle of wine or pack of cigarettes.

That would mean a single bottle of beer could cost a family its food stamps, free health care and any other welfare benefits. Antenori said he has no problem with that.

"If you don't have enough money to buy your own food to exist for your own sustenance, and you need some other hardworking taxpayer that's out there and working and paying taxes to subsidize your food, then you shouldn't have the luxury, at the expense of some other taxpayer, to go out and enjoy the niceties in life," he said.

Several of these affected programs use federal dollars, in whole or in part. But Antenori said he believes the state is still free to set eligibility standards.

DES spokesman Steve Meissner, whose agency screens applicants for all those programs, said the ability of the state to impose its own conditions "varies from program to program."

Monica Coury, spokeswoman for the Arizona Health Care Cost Containment System, said Antenori's bill, at least as crafted, would not affect eligibility for her agency's programs. Antenori said that if that's true, he will amend the measure when it goes to committee.

While welfare recipients would not be able to buy alcohol and tobacco products, they could acquire other items that are not a necessity - up to a point.

HB2770 would let anyone getting government assistance purchase a vehicle worth no more than $5,000. They could get a television as long as it doesn't cost more than $300.

Antenori said he sees no problem with people having "basic" cable service, saying it's "almost a necessity."

"If you allow for basic cable, they can still get their news and information," he said. And Arizonans would still get access to emergency broadcast bulletins.

Antenori said he does not envision state officials actually knocking on doors to search the homes of public assistance recipients to see if they have a big-screen TV or a cell phone. Instead, he wants Arizonans watching out for cheaters.

"People put $100 of food up on the register, run the EBT (Electronic Benefit Transfer card) through, and then throw two big jugs of booze and two cartons of cigarettes (onto the conveyor belt) and pull $100 out of their pocket. If you see that, you call a 1-800 number and notify somebody," Antenori said. "And we'll have it investigated."

Antenori said he sees it "all the time."

"If you've got 80 bucks to buy a gallon of booze and two cartons of cigarettes, then why the heck are we paying for your food? It's a priority issue," he said. "Somebody's priorities are screwed up."

Antenori said he has not considered whether there should be programs to help those on public assistance quit smoking so they don't lose their benefits. But he said he's not sure they're necessary, saying people could just quit.

"Not a lot of people are successful," he acknowledged. "But people have quit cold turkey."

He said it comes down to priorities.

"If you're basically hungry and can't afford to feed yourself, then I don't think you should be able to afford to buy cigarettes," Antenori said.

The measure, which has 12 co-sponsors, has not yet been set for a hearing.

taurusowner

  • Guest
Re: Lawmaker: On welfare? No beer or HBO for you
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2010, 12:32:28 AM »
Wait...why is this bad?

BlueStarLizzard

  • Queen of the Cislords
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,039
  • Oh please, nobody died last time...
Re: Lawmaker: On welfare? No beer or HBO for you
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2010, 01:17:21 AM »
Wait...why is this bad?

something along the lines that having a law that is extreamly difficult to enforce, there for people would be able to break it all the time, would be detrimental to the state, as people would be disrespecting and hold low regard for laws in general.

something like "well i break this law all the time, why not that one." and " haha look at me, i'm breaking the law".

kinda like the MJ laws. those who sell it (small quanities) and smoke it have a pretty open disregard for the laws, because they know it really can't be, thus isn't, enforced in many areas.

although i can see how the vehicles could be enforced fairly easily. thats just a matter of looking at the DMV for the most part, and checking blue book values.
"Okay, um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm angry, and I'm armed, so if you two have something that you need to work out --" -Malcolm Reynolds

KD5NRH

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,926
  • I'm too sexy for you people.
Re: Lawmaker: On welfare? No beer or HBO for you
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2010, 05:49:48 AM »
although i can see how the vehicles could be enforced fairly easily. thats just a matter of looking at the DMV for the most part, and checking blue book values.

A different approach could help with the others; make the merchants refuse to cash-sell alcohol or tobacco to someone using an EBT card at the same time.  Sure, they could walk out, dump the groceries in the car, and come back in for smokes and beer at a different register, but if you can't get them to work for the money, at least make them work a little bit to abuse the system.

The biggest problem with expecting other shoppers to call the hotline is that whoever's enforcing it would then have to dig through the merchant's records to try to find out who made the purchase.

Heck, I don't really care if they're buying a single bottle of wine or a 6-pack once a month with cash.  People on food stamps still have anniversaries and such, and it's reasonable that they might set aside a few bucks to celebrate something or provide a couple of cold ones for the folks helping them move to a cheaper apartment, but a couple cases of beer every week or a 2+ pack-a-day smoking habit is really beyond my tolerance for people mooching off the system.

IMO, the best way to deal with it is to simply give them a set number of MREs and/or HDRs per person per month, (plus formula, teething biscuits, etc for small children as applicable) and no other food allowance. 


Jamisjockey

  • Booze-fueled paragon of pointless cruelty and wanton sadism
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 26,580
  • Your mom sends me care packages
Re: Lawmaker: On welfare? No beer or HBO for you
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2010, 08:06:29 AM »
Unenforcable unfunded mandates, at the local level for once!   :facepalm:
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

BridgeRunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,845
Re: Lawmaker: On welfare? No beer or HBO for you
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2010, 08:17:38 AM »
Cable is more vital than beer?  Whose f-ed up priorities are these, anyway?  ???

(We got cable several months ago--after three years of not having tv, just a dvd player--when Comcast ran a special at $30/month.  The package, oddly enough, includes HBO.)

BryanP

  • friendly hermit
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,808
Re: Lawmaker: On welfare? No beer or HBO for you
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2010, 09:09:51 AM »
Cable is more vital than beer?  Whose f-ed up priorities are these, anyway?  ???

Mine.  :P  I have cable (although no premium channels), but I rarely drink alcohol at all.  I'm still only half way through the 6-pack of hard cider I bought last fall.
"Inaccurately attributed quotes are the bane of the internet" - Abraham Lincoln

Grandpa Shooter

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,079
Re: Lawmaker: On welfare? No beer or HBO for you
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2010, 09:31:36 AM »
Unenforcable unfunded mandates, at the local level for once!   :facepalm:

Exactly!  No way to enforce them, just ask the recipients if they are complying?  If that doesn't work just set up a snitch line so the violation can be called it in to the gov't?  Just another attempt to turn folks against others.  Divide and conquer.

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,646
Re: Lawmaker: On welfare? No beer or HBO for you
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2010, 09:43:33 AM »
Premise is good, enforcement is problematic. We might be able to do things like cross-reference welfare rolls with purchases of big-ticket items like computers or flat panel TVs, but I'm not enthusiastic about .gov routinely tracking that sort of thing for everyone.

Personally, I'd simply end welfare for everyone except a person with a genuine disability . . . and drug addition, being too fat, or being a drunk wouldn't be considered disabilities.

It really makes me angry when I see someone in a wheelchair or a person with malformed hands as a result of a birth defect working in a store or something, and I realize that some of the taxes THEY pay are going to support some able-bodied lowlife who won't work.  :mad:
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,974
Re: Lawmaker: On welfare? No beer or HBO for you
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2010, 09:52:04 AM »
Exactly!  No way to enforce them, just ask the recipients if they are complying?  If that doesn't work just set up a snitch line so the violation can be called it in to the gov't?  Just another attempt to turn folks against others.  Divide and conquer.

Or...

when you apply for food stamp assistance, your SSN and credit record is marked as such.  This sends a message out to your credit card companies, who then revoke your current card and send you a new one with a special mark on the face of it indicating you are prohibited from purchasing alcohol and tobacco with that card. 

Card numbers can be flagged for special examination; that's how merchants know to withhold a stolen credit card.

So, for this class of cards, a message comes across the screen for the merchant that alcohol and tobacco purchases are prohibited on the card.

That solves any attempt to purchase booze and smokes with debit/credit cards.  All that leaves is cash, which is admittedly untraceable and I'd just as soon leave it as such.

Your welfare recipient at least would then have to go to an ATM, get money, go to the store and use up their food stamp funds, leave, go back in to either the same or a different store and then get smokes and booze.  Difficult, annoying... but not impossible.

I think difficult and annoying is usually enough to derail most public dole leeches.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

charby

  • Necromancer
  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 29,295
  • APS's Resident Sikh/Muslim
Re: Lawmaker: On welfare? No beer or HBO for you
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2010, 09:58:32 AM »
...and require drug testing to be able to get welfare or food stamps for anyone who shares your address.

If you fail the pee test or anyone in your household, no assistance for you.
Iowa- 88% more livable that the rest of the US

Uranus is a gas giant.

Team 444: Member# 536

zahc

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,799
Re: Lawmaker: On welfare? No beer or HBO for you
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2010, 10:22:54 AM »
You generally have to be carded to buy cigs and alcohol. Why not make it that your state-issued drivers license has a flag on it if you receive welfare, and so when they swipe it at the register it comes up inelligible? I think that would be fairly unintrusive considering I already have to get my card out to buy the stuff anyway.
Maybe a rare occurence, but then you only have to get murdered once to ruin your whole day.
--Tallpine

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,974
Re: Lawmaker: On welfare? No beer or HBO for you
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2010, 10:27:01 AM »
You generally have to be carded to buy cigs and alcohol. Why not make it that your state-issued drivers license has a flag on it if you receive welfare, and so when they swipe it at the register it comes up inelligible? I think that would be fairly unintrusive considering I already have to get my card out to buy the stuff anyway.

Some people on welfare live rough.  They look weathered before their time.  They won't get carded.

Some people on welfare are old.  They won't get carded.

But it's a good idea, still.  Combine it with the credit card rejection routine and you stop just about anyone under 30 from buying cigs and booze, that's on welfare... as well as a good chunk of others over 30.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: Lawmaker: On welfare? No beer or HBO for you
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2010, 11:45:17 AM »
I have no problem with restrictions on what are essentially wards of the state.  Taxpayers are paying the cost to be the boss.  Don't like the conditions?  Don't take your "free money" from Uncle Sugar.

I do have problems with unenforcable laws.  This sort of idea has been shown to be enforceable, though some still defraud the system.

Some restrictions are already in place, such as "food stamps" (really a debit card, nowadays) not able to be used for anything but...food.  No great stretch to extend that to other items for other welfare payments.

Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

geronimotwo

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,796
Re: Lawmaker: On welfare? No beer or HBO for you
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2010, 11:47:50 AM »
i loaned a friend some money to save there house from going to foreclosure.   it would burn me up to see them smoking cigarrettes, but not have the money to give me back a few dollars.  same thing goes for the people taking public assistance, or those that are incarcerated.  (btw, they finally did pay me when their taxes came through this year.)
make the world idiot proof.....and you will have a world full of idiots. -g2

BridgeRunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,845
Re: Lawmaker: On welfare? No beer or HBO for you
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2010, 12:25:59 PM »
Another problem: Many/most foster families receive food stamps for the foster child.  While most people on assistance are not actually wards of the state (however much you enjoy stating that they are), foster children are, and the state is responsible for their care.  The state pays for their care in part with food stamps.  Are Texas foster families to be prohibited (or even reported and subject to investigation) for not living a lifestyle publicly evidencing poverty?

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: Lawmaker: On welfare? No beer or HBO for you
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2010, 12:42:38 PM »
Quote
No way to enforce them

Sure there is - SWAT teams!  :lol:

Bust down the door, shoot the dogs and stomp the kittens!

We already know where they live, and no warrant is needed because they are on welfare (probable cause).

 ;/


(so once we have "national healthcare", will everyone be a ward of the state???)
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Laurent du Var

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 719
Re: Lawmaker: On welfare? No beer or HBO for you
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2010, 12:45:19 PM »
Why not have them put stars with a W for Welfare in the middle
on their cloths so everybody can see that they are leeches looking for
infiltrating and destroying the society?
Shops can put up signs "For taxpayers only" as well.  ;/
Vada a bordo, Cazzo!

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,974
Re: Lawmaker: On welfare? No beer or HBO for you
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2010, 01:18:49 PM »
Why not have them put stars with a W for Welfare in the middle
on their cloths so everybody can see that they are leeches looking for
infiltrating and destroying the society?
Shops can put up signs "For taxpayers only" as well.  ;/

I'm disturbingly OK with that.

Don't like it, get off welfare.

Another problem: Many/most foster families receive food stamps for the foster child.  While most people on assistance are not actually wards of the state (however much you enjoy stating that they are), foster children are, and the state is responsible for their care.  The state pays for their care in part with food stamps.  Are Texas foster families to be prohibited (or even reported and subject to investigation) for not living a lifestyle publicly evidencing poverty?

Then buy food for the kid you're letting stay in your home with your family.

Once upon a time, I had a bleeding heart and worked for CPS in Washington State.

There were two types of foster families:  Those that did it as a job to boost their household income and afford other niceties, and those that did it because they wanted to help out some kids who had it rough.

The kids that healed up and went on to succeed in life, stayed with the second type of families.

I have no problem with removing food stamp eligibility from foster parents.

Or, another angle, I have no problem with giving foster parents actual checks rather than food stamp cards.

Or, another angle, I have no problem with a 100% on-call-all-the-time guardian of a ward of the state being prohibited from smoking and drinking while on the job ("foster parent" means no alcohol in the house and no smoking households).  Just not a big deal, IMO.

But the foster issue isn't enough to derail meaningful welfare reform and encouraging people to get off the dole.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

Boomhauer

  • Former Moderator, fired for embezzlement and abuse of power
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,324
Re: Lawmaker: On welfare? No beer or HBO for you
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2010, 01:39:11 PM »
What Blondie/AZRedhawk said.

Also, the welfare leeches usually do a pretty damn fine job of making themselves stand out...like when they pay with foodstamps and then stroll out to their Escalades...

You'll find my sympathy for welfare leaches is non-existent, as they like to keep voting for politicians that offer to put a gun to my head and take my money to "redistribute the wealth".



« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 01:45:43 PM by Avenger29 »
Quote from: Ben
Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

Quote from: bluestarlizzard
the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

Quote from: Balog
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! AND THROW SOME STEAK ON THE GRILL!

Scout26

  • I'm a leaf on the wind.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 25,997
  • I spent a week in that town one night....
Re: Lawmaker: On welfare? No beer or HBO for you
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2010, 01:45:50 PM »
Mandatory Hair and Urine Sample, when you pick up your check/debit card.
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

Battle Monkey of Zardoz

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,915
  • A more Elegant Monkey for a more civilized Forum.
Re: Lawmaker: On welfare? No beer or HBO for you
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2010, 04:01:10 PM »
Quote
"If you don't have enough money to buy your own food to exist for your own sustenance, and you need some other hardworking taxpayer that's out there and working and paying taxes to subsidize your food, then you shouldn't have the luxury, at the expense of some other taxpayer, to go out and enjoy the niceties in life," he said.

plus 1000%

I agree.  I also like the idea ok marking welfare critters. Don't like it, get off welfare. That damn simple.
“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”

Abraham Lincoln


With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

BlueStarLizzard

  • Queen of the Cislords
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,039
  • Oh please, nobody died last time...
Re: Lawmaker: On welfare? No beer or HBO for you
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2010, 04:21:57 PM »
too be honest, instead of going this route

i would be more in support of welfare programs that have time limits and "weaning" type programs for the vast majority of the particapents.

as for disabilty type programs and foster care, we would need laws particularly for those situations.

i would think, if you uncombine the group into specific types of disibilty/long term welfare and placed more control in the hands of the particular agancies in charge of those cases, while keeping the larger run on a shorter leash with actual time limits and enforcable restrictions, you would have enough personal to be directly involved, thus aiding in catching those who are doing it for a free ride.

i will also say, that most cases of those abusing the system are more visible with being less commen then most would think. and they get away with it because we (tax payers) spend more money paying for the programs that hand out without paying for the actual workers in charge of the programs.

and run down, overwelmed, poorly trained social welfare workers are not gonna bust their butts to do the work catching the abusers, especially given the crap their paid and the inability to too their jobs combined with the losing ideals/getting burned out factor.

note to add: my moms has a masters degree in social work, has been working at a local gov subsidised non profit for over ten years, before which she temped at numorous diffrent non profits, hospitals and gov. agencys (including a stint in child protective services) and she has been at point non plus with it for years. she never made enough to actually support herself, despite having worked her butt off for that masters degree and all that experince, has her hands tied in many cases by adminstarters without experiance actually doing the work, and despite her best efforts to do the best she can by her clients (at JABA she's working mostly with the working class, lower class rural elederly. people that should have been taken care off by the  retarded system of social security which, by this point they earned, cause they paid for it) she can't. and its gotten to the point that a women, who devoted her proffesional life to doing this work, has gotten burned out. which means all the good she can do is lost to the system because of the system, and she most likely cannot be replaced.
"Okay, um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm angry, and I'm armed, so if you two have something that you need to work out --" -Malcolm Reynolds

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,283
Re: Lawmaker: On welfare? No beer or HBO for you
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2010, 04:27:18 PM »
I am on board with the concept that those living "on the dole" are entitled to the basics and nothing more. What I am NOT on board with is trying to enforce such a system by asking citizens to become informants. That won't work. And to whatever limited extent it might appear to work, it would at best result in extremely spotty enforcement.

If you can't set up a system that works without requiring people to rat out their neighbors ... don't bother.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Boomhauer

  • Former Moderator, fired for embezzlement and abuse of power
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,324
Re: Lawmaker: On welfare? No beer or HBO for you
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2010, 04:36:51 PM »
I am on board with the concept that those living "on the dole" are entitled to the basics and nothing more. What I am NOT on board with is trying to enforce such a system by asking citizens to become informants. That won't work. And to whatever limited extent it might appear to work, it would at best result in extremely spotty enforcement.

If you can't set up a system that works without requiring people to rat out their neighbors ... don't bother.

I do agree that the informing method won't work.

But nobody has the balls or desire to introduce REAL reform, either.

Quote
and run down, overwelmed, poorly trained social welfare workers are not gonna bust their butts to do the work catching the abusers, especially given the crap their paid and the inability to too their jobs combined with the losing ideals/getting burned out factor.

Social workers, no matter how dedicated/honest/hardworking, aren't going to make any real change either until the system is truly fixed.



Yeah, I'm not holding my breath on that.  
« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 04:41:16 PM by Avenger29 »
Quote from: Ben
Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

Quote from: bluestarlizzard
the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

Quote from: Balog
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! AND THROW SOME STEAK ON THE GRILL!