gov't sanctioned robbery? I think so!

[gunsmith]

http://news.yahoo.com/judge-says-10-rare-gold-coins-worth-80-152750965--abc-news-topstories.html

They drill an old safe belonging to their family , find coins worth 80 million! uncle sam says "not so fast, that's mine!"

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

i believe the contention is that they were stolen originally
he coins in question were not lawfully removed from the United States Mint.

[gunsmith]

no, the govt had at one time declared that you cant own gold and took what gold you had.

The 1933 Saint-Gaudens double eagle coin was originally valued at $20, but sold for as much as $7.5 million at a Sotheby's auction in 2002, according to Courthouse News.
After President Theodore Roosevelt had the U.S. abandon the gold standard, most of the 445,500 double eagles that the Philadelphia Mint had struck were melted into gold bars.

Sotheby would have said "can we buy this" but .gov says "mine mine mine"

[HankB]

IIRC, the folks that found these coins sent them to the government for authentication.

ALL of them. 

To paraphrase an old proverb . . . fools and their money are soon parted. Idiots.

(Also it was President FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT who called in gold; Theodore Roosevelt had died over a decade before.)

[BlueStarLizzard]

i believe the contention is that they were stolen originally
he coins in question were not lawfully removed from the United States Mint.

A long, long, long time ago.

If they had caught the dude who gave them/sold them to the orginal family member, AND had caught the orginal family member with the illigal goods, sure.

But, after all this time has passed? I say "finders, keepers". Unfortunatly, I doubt the .gov is going to give up $80 million, even if it is pocket change for them.

[Tuco]

They were worth eight million each when there was one of them.  Eleven specimens will bring down the individual worth.

Sincerely,
Captain Obvious

[AJ Dual]

A long, long, long time ago.

If they had caught the dude who gave them/sold them to the orginal family member, AND had caught the orginal family member with the illigal goods, sure.

But, after all this time has passed? I say "finders, keepers". Unfortunatly, I doubt the .gov is going to give up $80 million, even if it is pocket change for them.

Worth more than "$80 Million" in FRN's since it's real gold, not just IOU's from the Fed.

[BlueStarLizzard]

Worth more than "$80 Million" in FRN's since it's real gold, not just IOU's from the Fed.

whatever. Going by the article.
Unless those coins can single handedly pay off the entire national debt, the .gov needs them like they need a hole in the head.

[AZRedhawk44]

This is just like machine guns / NFA stuff.

The first coin is worth 8 million because of a fixed supply compared to demand.  And that supply is deliberately kept scarce by government controls.

Increasing supply 10 fold will drive down price.

Also, a HUGE amount of the supposed value of these coins lies in collectibility rather than intrinsic value for the gold.  Assuming these are 1oz coins then their true value is really only whatever the spot rate for gold happens to be, so about $1700 or so.  A long way away from $8 million.

These coins represent the evil of government itself.  Their supposed value is a statement of the dishonesty of government.  And the current behavior of the government vis-a-vis confiscation is a continuation of that evil, with the direct intent of profiting from that behavior.

I would insist that these coins be melted into bars like all the other double eagles, since they were confiscated.  If the government sells them at auction, they are attempting to profit off their own criminality (FDR's ban on gold ownership).  It is government manufactured scarcity... it would be like the government selling machine guns after banning their manufacture.

[Tuco]

In 1933, the .gov minted 455,000 of them.  
Whether they held those and hold these, or melted those and melt these,  in their hands, they're worth spot.
If they melted those and hold these, they're still worth spot.  If the release these, collectors won't touch them for anything near seven digits.  They'll be nothing more than another date of St. Gaudins, with a bit of notoriety to add a few thousand.


edit spelling

[brimic]

I would insist that these coins be melted into bars like all the other double eagles, since they were confiscated.  If the government sells them at auction, they are attempting to profit off their own criminality (FDR's ban on gold ownership).  It is government manufactured scarcity... it would be like the government selling machine guns after banning their manufacture.

What's more likely to happen is that they will 'disappear' as in they will find their way home into the safes of government heads.
The 'criminality' of the federal government has not changed for the better since FDR's time.

[K Frame]

Robbery?

Hardly.

The original owner NEVER possessed the coins legally in the first place.

That means that the family NEVER possessed the coins legally.

There is no statute of limitations on recovery of stolen government property.

I'm not sure why everyone gets so up in arms about this. It's not as if the family won the lottery and the government then said "no, you can't have it."

At worst, the family found out "Hey, we just found out our relative was a lying, thieving scumbag *expletive deleted*, but we're good with that because it could benefit us personally!"

Yeah.  



"no, the govt had at one time declared that you cant own gold and took what gold you had."

NO. The government PAID people face value for the gold that they had at the then standard exchange rate.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

realist!!!    statist!

[brimic]

He who has the gold makes the rules.
.gov has all the gold.

[kgbsquirrel]

http://www.coinbooks.org/esylum_v12n31a12.html

The Landbords' suit noted that in the previous seizure of another 1933 double eagle, the government split the proceeds with the owner after the coin sold for a record $7.59 million at a 2002 auction.

The suit also noted that the government allowed King Farouk of Egypt to own and export a 1933 double eagle in 1944 without questioning how it came into circulation.

Man, that whole precedent thing sure is annoying, isn't it?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Further evidence of that talent came on July 28, when Philadelphia federal district court judge Legrome Davis ruled that the U.S. government violated the constitutional rights of Berke's clients, the Langbord family, when it seized 10 1933 Double Eagles that had allegedly been stolen from the U.S. Mint in a heist orchestrated the Langbords' ancestor. Granting Berke's motion for summary judgment, the judge ordered the goverment to initiate a hearing to prove that the coins had been stolen.

The 1940s investigators concluded that all of the Double Eagles that got out of the Mint had passed through the hands of a Philadelphia jeweler named Israel Switt. Though the lead Secret Service investigator pressed for charges to be brought against Switt, the Philadelphia U.S. attorney said the statute of limitations had expired. Switt was never prosecuted for the theft of the coins from the Mint.

In 2005--after the auction of the $7.69 million coin--Switt's daughter and grandson miraculously "found" 10 1933 Double Eagles in a safe deposit box that had belonged to Switt. Switt's grandson, a law school graduate named Roy Langbord, hired Berke to figure out how to keep the coins in the family's possession, even though the government maintained they were contraband that had been stolen from the Mint.

Berke's canny strategy was to turn the coins over to the government, but only for purposes of authentication. Then when the government refused to give the coins back--as Berke surely knew it would--he sued, claiming the coins had been illegally seized from the Langbords. And though assistant U.S. attorneys in Philadelphia argued that the Langbord family had unclean hands, Judge Davis ruled that the Langbords' constitutional protections had been violated. Now the burden of proof lies on the government, which must establish that the Langbord coins were stolen--even though everyone connected with the coins' disappearance from the Mint and the initial investigation of the alleged theft is long dead.

[K Frame]

"Man, that whole precedent thing sure is annoying, isn't it?"

Not precedent in this case at all.

That coin was legally, but erroneously, released by the Department of State to King Farouk of Egypt, who was an avid coin collector.

That coin was not stolen and it had a legally binding release and export license to that individual.

After Farkouk's overthrow the coin was apparently stolen from his collection and sold illegally in Europe, which is apparently why the US Government wanted it back and why it was seized.

Those are the reasons why the deal was hammered out for that coin, and that coin alone.

The Swit coins? They were never legally released into circulation, they were stolen by a government employee. Because of that, no precedent exists, or can be inferred, from the King Farouk coin.


As for the government having to prove that the coins were not legally released, that should be a relatively easy thing to do, given that the order removing gold from circulation and stopping new gold coins from being released from the US mints came as of 5 April 1933 in Executive Order 6102.

Minting of the 1933 Double Eagles didn't stop until late April or early May, 1933, after the executive order took effect, meaning that they were never "monetized," or authorized for release to the public.

In as much as the executive order existed before any of the 1933 Double Eagles physically existed as money, it's pretty clear that none of them could have been released into circulation legally (note that the Farkouk coin was NOT released into circulation, it apparently was released, incorrectly, under the Gold Reserve Act of 1934 exemption for collectable coins).


So, as much as I really don't like the entire concept of the coins being seized, I like even less the concept that a family can miraculously "find" a trove of these coins that were, to me, very clearly accumulated through the illegal actions of a relative and somehow think they have A) rights to the coins, B) rights to sell the coins, and C) rights to profit from stolen goods.

Personally, I don't buy for a minute that any violation of Constitutional protections existed here. I find that to be anathma.

[280plus]

Interesting side note, here in CT there is the story of the revolutionists stealing a large shipment of gold from the Brits. Legend has it they buried it in a swamp not far from here and that every once in a while a coin will show up along the banks of an associated brook. NO ONE looks for the gold, tempting as it may be. Why? Because it's still gold stolen from the US govt who would be very happy to step in, take it and then thank you for finding it for them. There are those historians around that poo poo the story but there are others that do not.

[kgbsquirrel]

Personally, I don't buy for a minute that any violation of Constitutional protections existed here. I find that to be anathma.

Could not the original gold seizure and criminalization of possession by fiat (Executive Order 6102) be considered a Constitutional violation, and thus everything that followed it be tainted?

[K Frame]

"Could not the original gold seizure and criminalization of possession by fiat (Executive Order 6102) be considered a Constitutional violation, and thus everything that followed it be tainted?"

You're joking, right?

In the 80+ years since that order was issued, it has never been deemed necessary to come under review on Constitutional grounds even though the Supreme Court, for a number of years, was highly disposed to rule New Deal programs unconstitutional.

[gunsmith]

IIRC, the folks that found these coins sent them to the government for authentication.

ALL of them. 

To paraphrase an old proverb . . . fools and their money are soon parted. Idiots.

(Also it was President FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT who called in gold; Theodore Roosevelt had died over a decade before.)

Yeah, it wasn't the smartiest thing to do, handing over all of them.
You say Roosevelt and I say gol dang new deal.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

the turning them over was a calculated legal ploy   that failed

[kgbsquirrel]

"Could not the original gold seizure and criminalization of possession by fiat (Executive Order 6102) be considered a Constitutional violation, and thus everything that followed it be tainted?"

You're joking, right?

In the 80+ years since that order was issued, it has never been deemed necessary to come under review on Constitutional grounds even though the Supreme Court, for a number of years, was highly disposed to rule New Deal programs unconstitutional.

Plessy v. Fergusson stood for 64 years before someone got around to bringing suite against it and finding it unconstitutional. Was P v. F perfectly a-okay in year 63 and only suddenly became wrong and unconstitutional in year 64? Because that seems to be the point you're arguing here regarding the government stealing its citizens' property by dictatorial decree. Just because nobody has gotten around to smashing E.O. 6102 does not make it any less wrong and unconstitutional.

[K Frame]

OK, so you want to play the game of "Hypothetical vs. Things as they Really Are."

Hypothetically, Neptunian Squid Men attacked Earth in 1953, not to conquor and enslave, but to eat all of the gold that they could find.

The Squid Men, in fact, ate EVERY atom of gold worldwide, leaving the United States and the rest of the world struggly to find a new commodity upon which to base... well nothing, I guess... but the worldwide decision is made to use zinc.

Is, then, the family of Israle Swit, dealer in stolen items (alleged), legally justified in retaining their memories of these coins even if they (allegedly) didn't know of their existence until post 2000?

OK, that was painfully... "fun."


Fact: 6102 was enacted in 1933, and subsequent acts of Congress in 1934 and after.

Fact: No lower court has ever found those acts to be unconstitutional.

Fact: The Supreme Court has never taken up the issue of the constitutionality of the actions that outlawed private possession of gold.

Fact: In the American sytem, the Supreme Court is the final arbiter of that which is, and which is not, constitutional.

Fact: Until the courts rule otherwise, Presidential Executive Orders and Acts of Congress are constitutional.

While nothing is impossible, nothing changes the previously stated salient facts that the coins in question were determined to have been removed from the Mint illegally, those coins were never released for public use, and those coins were never monetized, making them illegal for the public to possess.

Is it possible that the Supreme Court could, eventually, rule that the family was somehow deprived of their Constitutional rights?

Yes.

Is it likely, though, given the nature and history of the coins, that the courts would return those coins to the family, given that no matter how the Government treated the family, they are still the proceeds of a theft?

Very, very doubtful.

At best, I could see the Government being forced to renumerate the family at the 1933 per ounce gold value of the coins, about $25.

But will the coins be returned to the family?

No.

Should the coins be returned to the family?

No.

Should they be allowed to profit for the illegal activities of their relative at YOUR (and my) expense?

In what kind of crazy *expletive deleted*ed up world would anyone say yes?

[brimic]

Most probably it would have been better if they hammered the coins into gold chunks and sold them as scrap.