This is what happens when your safe lock fails

[makattak]

The down side of being me was everyone was wanting me to just strap explosives on the safe and blow it open.  I wasn't fond of the idea, especially given what I had in it. If I had a safe I didn't care about I would have done it in a heart beat.

...

If you decide to stay, you'll fit in well here at APS.

[RevDisk]

I wanted to keep it to throughly dissect all the components, alas Liberty wanted it to send it to S&G for the warranty. I really want to know the exact failure method of that lock. The annoying part of being an engineer and understanding this stuff is wanting to apply that knowledge so you don't make the same mistake later in a different design.

I will be paying a visit to my smith's shop the next time I'm home.  He's got a large collection of military locks among other things. 

Your 1st comment was also something I had issue with about their being a serial on the outside of the safe.  It would make no sense for it to be readily visible to a thief.
2) Yup. See below.
3) Double Yup.

The down side of being me was everyone was wanting me to just strap explosives on the safe and blow it open.  I wasn't fond of the idea, especially given what I had in it. If I had a safe I didn't care about I would have done it in a heart beat.

Crap. I assume you would have noticed any popped/bulged caps or anything obvious. Didn't run a multimeter on anything either?

S&G isn't what they used to be. I know a casual acquaintance that can pick a S&G 951C (commonly used to secure nuclear weapons) with relative ease. I'm not shocked that they're sourcing from the PRC.

Not according to what I experienced.  Ft Knox, Liberty, AmSec... all of them had the serial number plated or stickered on the outside.  Usually on the back, which is intentional so the owner can get at it but thief can't casually find it (you did bolt your safe to the floor like you're supposed to, right?)

Look, I'm not trying to be an ass.  Just relating my experience and speculating thusly.  In the nine months I worked at the store I sold, delivered, or at the very least assisted in moving, hundreds of the things including swapping them between manual/electric locksets.  I'm not exactly unfamiliar with them.

Brad

That would be "not casually exposing" the serial number. 

Back or door jamb are only places I've seen the serial numbers exposed. On an actual safe. GSA security containers are another ball of wax, and they often do have the serial number or asset tag in plain view.

[minuteman]

Butthurt is a feature, not a bug.

That said, jumping in swinging by accusing someone of being a troll for stating an opinion isn't how we roll here. 

And with the way he approached point 3 I called it like I saw it. If he hadn't approached it the way he did I probably wouldn't have called him a troll.  But if you act like one, I'm going to call you on it.  The way he approached it, it wasn't opinion it was fact to him. 

Usually on the back, which is intentional so the owner can get at it but thief can't casually find it (you did bolt your safe to the floor like you're supposed to, right?)

Did you miss where I said the following: 

Further, prey tell, if it's on the back of the safe, how do I see it given it's bolted to the ground and there's a wall on the back side?  It sure isn't on the left side or right sides of the safe either.

Not to mention while trying to schedule a service call from 5.5 hours away the back of the safe is of no use.  It's like I'm repeating myself here.

  In the nine months I worked at the store I sold, delivered, or at the very least assisted in moving, hundreds of the things including swapping them between manual/electric locksets.  I'm not exactly unfamiliar with them.

And I'm not exactly unfamiliar with them either, from all sides, including GSA locks.  So walking up and saying "he's blowing smoke, he just didn't change the battery".  It's a whole new level of stupid, and honestly I wasn't surprised when my locksmith tried a new battery anyway.  Let's be damn sure of the situation before we do this.  You may not be trying to sound like an ass, but your first post is exactly how you came off. 

When the safe movers come out to move the safe, I'll check the back for the serial. Due to the position I'd have to tear out two load bearing walls to try and search the back.  Current without a home inspection style camera I'm not going to be able to search the back other than maybe the very edge. (It is literally against the wall.)  Doesn't matter at this point, I have a digital copy of the serial where I can find it.  Which was my recommendation to prevent this problem.  Again, horrible suggestion right?  Just get it off the back of the safe 5.5 hours away that's easier. 

This is what I don't get, I'm giving lessons I learned and people are going "BS, no need, just get it off the back of the safe."  Because that's always an option?

[Jamisjockey]

I'm not sure you know what a troll is and I really don't have the time to explain it to you.
What I'm saying is jumping in with both feet and name calling especially as a brand new member isn't going to win any hearts and minds.  I don't have a dog in this fight.  What I do have an issue with is the polite conduct of the membership of this board.  
Consider that a warning, because I call it like I see it, too. 
Thank you.

[minuteman]

Crap. I assume you would have noticed any popped/bulged caps or anything obvious. Didn't run a multimeter on anything either?

S&G isn't what they used to be. I know a casual acquaintance that can pick a S&G 951C (commonly used to secure nuclear weapons) with relative ease. I'm not shocked that they're sourcing from the PRC.

I did a cursory glance at the cap.  As it had RTV holding it in place on the back and was surrounded by metal I would have really needed to inspect the rubber on the underside and look at the top and I was glancing at it in a rush.  I was also avoiding excessive prying and movement as I had to cut the warranty stickers to take a look.

To the question someone put above adding a bigger power supply would only help in the instance that the cap failed open.  Even then the resistance of the feed wires could cause issues given I squared R losses.  It also would likely have issues because most things like this would have their own on board power regulator to deal with the fluctuation in battery voltage over time.  You could certainly try it.  As long as you reasonably cap the current there shouldn't be an issue.  The only catch is if the capacitor has failed in a short it will just sink all the current.  Without actually cutting it from the circuit it will still fail.

[lupinus]

 

[Perd Hapley]

It's ok to point out expected common troubleshooting steps, but you can do so in a much more polite manner. "Just checking, but you did reboot, right?" or "Just to be sure, you tried a second oil pressure gauge, yes?"

I picked this quotation because it represents a reality of the internets, and puts Brad's comments in the proper light. It's to be expected that you'll talk differently about someone on some other web page, than you'd talk about/to them when you expect them to read what you said. Asking minuteman if he had checked the battery wasn't really in the cards, as he wasn't in on the conversation at that point, and wasn't expected to be. Brad was just talking about something out there on the internet; not trying to hurt the guy's feelings. One can't be expected to walk on eggshells around people that aren't there. Brad may have erred in his assessment of the safe situation, but there's no breach in polite conduct on his part.

As for minuteman, I would be a little ticked off, if I were him. It's natural. But when you barge in on a forum where you're not known, and start saying that a guy with a long history on said forum is a troll - that's not going to work out very well. Also natural. (Well, maybe if he were talking about someone everyone hates. Like Scout26.)

But on the other, other hand, I guess we all have to remember that anyone could be reading what we have to say. I mean, not just the NSA.

[Balog]

Google alerts certainly has brought us some interesting conversations lately.

[makattak]

Google alerts certainly has brought us some interesting conversations lately.

We must remember that what you say on the internet is available to everyone. I endeavor not to say anything I would not say to someone's face.

Not saying that's always the case, but I try to make it the case.

[KD5NRH]

S&G isn't what they used to be. I know a casual acquaintance that can pick a S&G 951C (commonly used to secure nuclear weapons) with relative ease.

Think he could swipe about 435 of them, complete with notes as to where each belongs?  If each House member got one, with pricing info and time required to pick it, enough might get the hint about where money is being wasted.

[Balog]

We must remember that what you say on the internet is available to everyone. I endeavor not to say anything I would not say to someone's face.

Not saying that's always the case, but I try to make it the case.

I've been working on being more angry and abrasive in person so that I can do the same. 

[roo_ster]

I've been working on being more angry and abrasive in person so that I can do the same. 

Heh.

I hear these can be handy for that task:


Not sure what you're supposed to do with them.  But they are 100% all natural, so they've got that going for htem.

[RevDisk]

Think he could swipe about 435 of them, complete with notes as to where each belongs?  If each House member got one, with pricing info and time required to pick it, enough might get the hint about where money is being wasted.

Eh, the security could be better. But honestly, you're talking less than a couple dozen people in the entire world. It is resistant to destructive entry (including liquid nitrogen) than many more secure locks. It's a trade off.


That said, if S&G is going to the PRC for its electronic locks and using crap QC, that's actually more disturbing to me than the physical security on our nuclear weapons.

[minuteman]

I picked this quotation because it represents a reality of the internets, and puts Brad's comments in the proper light. It's to be expected that you'll talk differently about someone on some other web page, than you'd talk about/to them when you expect them to read what you said. Asking minuteman if he had checked the battery wasn't really in the cards, as he wasn't in on the conversation at that point, and wasn't expected to be. Brad was just talking about something out there on the internet; not trying to hurt the guy's feelings. One can't be expected to walk on eggshells around people that aren't there. Brad may have erred in his assessment of the safe situation, but there's no breach in polite conduct on his part.

Ahh, but it could have been directly in the cards.  He could have asked in the open comments on my article, I do have a comments section you know. Not to mention I stated I did everything on Liberty's troubleshooting page.  At the same time it should have been expected for me to read it, between Google alerts, Google Analytics, SiteMeter, and the Analytics on my server I know just about everywhere my post is.  Referring links baby, it's the internet.  The only way to really keep it behind closed doors is to close the doors and make the forum members only. That also means preventing Google from crawling it.

What I saw when I  got here was someone climbing on his soap box and talking his opinion over the facts, he directly ignored things I stated I did, and then did so behind my back.  Sorry, where I'm from that's a pretty dickish thing to do, and nothing "polite" about it. I will say a pile of gunnies saw this thread, how it went down; none of them were impressed, and none were surprised when a mod showed up and gave me a warning for calling out what was distinctly a swing at me.

I went skimming through the forums last night, I might stick around I might not.  This interaction has seriously colored my perception of the way the people on this form act.  Words do matter along with behavior.  I think the most entertaining thread for me was this one.

Why? The comparision to being better than ARFcom stood out. While you may see yourselves as being better, I saw the exact same behavior I've seen from them many times before.  Here's my favorite.  I just kept my mouth shut, even though I am an ARFcom member.  A friend made a comment, and bumped me the link since he knew I wouldn't probably see it till that night, but the fact that they freaked out over the way I trimmed my beard behind my back, because that's what that whole thing was about right?

I'm looking at this as same crap, different day. Many of my friends looked at this and said it's just like every other forum on the planet. If you really want to color yourselves as being better than every place else, you have to act above the bar even when you think no one is watching. If you're a jerk only when no one is looking, you're still a jerk. Just because you feel here is better than out there, doesn't actually make it so.  It just may seem that way because you're comfortable with the people here.  From the outside you may just appear to be another group of the same, especially when threads like this end up being your opening interaction.

First impressions count on both sides and this one was a giant bag of suck and fail.  I may have been a bit more aggressive than I needed to be, but then again I was also engaging with someone basically talking crap thinking I was deaf and dumb (my perception of it).

[Balog]

I like arfcom, but if you think this forum is at the same level of politeness you're mistaken. No "OP is retarded" memes, no "This thread is dildos" etc. I'm amazed you like it there if this is how thin your skin is. Yes, Brad said something stupid about a random blog post. Coming to a place where he's well known and you aren't and throwing a hissy fit because he hurt your feels doesn't make you look good.

If you want to relate it to arf, you're a 14'er who's attacking subnet. It's not going to work out well for you.

[RevDisk]

Just tossing this out there, but any chance of a truce? Both sides have their right and wrong aspects. Not saying either party is innocent as new fallen snow, or as damnable as your average politician. There's no need to beat a dead horse and whatnot.

[Balog]

Just tossing this out there, but any chance of a truce? Both sides have their right and wrong aspects. Not saying either party is innocent as new fallen snow, or as damnable as your average politician. There's no need to beat a dead horse and whatnot.

If I can get along with Brad after the farm bill subsidies threads anyone can do it. 

[roo_ster]

minuteman:

Get over it, dude.

Brad made some mild comments about some random web page, he didn't kick your dog and insult your wife.  He made some incorrect inferences, misread some bit, and combined those with his experience shilling Liberty Safes.  He also didn't use the most delicate language, but it is not like he called you a left-handed Nazi dentist.  Pretty mild stuff, really.  He even backed off and made some conciliatory noises after you showed up and provided data not on your web page which demonstrated he was mistaken in his understanding of the situation.  Data which, had it been included in the original web page, would have headed off some of Brad's commentary.  I think he's got the message and you can turn it down a bit from "high dudgeon."

Ahh, but it could have been directly in the cards.  He could have asked in the open comments on my article, I do have a comments section you know. Not to mention I stated I did everything on Liberty's troubleshooting page.  At the same time it should have been expected for me to read it, between Google alerts, Google Analytics, SiteMeter, and the Analytics on my server I know just about everywhere my post is.  Referring links baby, it's the internet.  The only way to really keep it behind closed doors is to close the doors and make the forum members only. That also means preventing Google from crawling it.

What I saw when I  got here was someone climbing on his soap box and talking his opinion over the facts, he directly ignored things I stated I did, and then did so behind my back.  Sorry, where I'm from that's a pretty dickish thing to do, and nothing "polite" about it. I will say a pile of gunnies saw this thread, how it went down; none of them were impressed, and none were surprised when a mod showed up and gave me a warning for calling out what was distinctly a swing at me.

For the love of Pete, that is some nutty shinola. 

He could have asked in the open comments on my article
So?  Brad did not start the post, merely commented on another's posting of it here.  Any and all discussion of every web page on the net need not occur on the originating page's comment section.  Not surprising that zero folks here at APS felt strongly enough about your tale of woe to mosey on over and directly post on your site.  I did not even care enough to click the original link until a moment ago.

At the same time it should have been expected for me to read it,
No, not really.  Most do not set up an imperial buttload of web crawlers.  You are special in that regard, if not unique. 

then did so behind my back
Dude, you need to recalibrate your paranoia-o-meter.  I am willing to go out on a limb and bet that nobody here at 2014-04-22 16:21:22 cared enough about you or your web page to feel the need to "go behind your back."  On an open forum.  Or was he hiding in plain sight since he ought to have known you have web crawlers out sniffing high & low?  Not sure how one is supposed to, on an open forum, go behind your back...especially if that person expects you to read it.

what was distinctly a swing at me
Stop personalizing what is, for the most part, an impersonal medium.  The thing about "On the internet nobody knows you're a dog" is balanced out by, "Nobody on the internet cares if you are a dog."  Up until you gifted us with the Bene Gesserit Litany of Butthurt, I did not know you existed.  You provided some real benefit by going into more detail regarding the issues with your safe and demonstrating that Brad did not have a complete understanding of the situation.  Wonderful.  But I had to swim through a sea of cheap whine to get at it.  Not so wonderful. 

[BobR]

^^^^^

I think you can take the "in training" out of your title. You have graduated to full tilt curmudgeon, that is not a bad thing. It gives me an ideal to aspire toward.  

bob

[Jamisjockey]

Ahh, but it could have been directly in the cards.  He could have asked in the open comments on my article, I do have a comments section you know. Not to mention I stated I did everything on Liberty's troubleshooting page.  At the same time it should have been expected for me to read it, between Google alerts, Google Analytics, SiteMeter, and the Analytics on my server I know just about everywhere my post is.  Referring links baby, it's the internet.  The only way to really keep it behind closed doors is to close the doors and make the forum members only. That also means preventing Google from crawling it.

What I saw when I  got here was someone climbing on his soap box and talking his opinion over the facts, he directly ignored things I stated I did, and then did so behind my back.  Sorry, where I'm from that's a pretty dickish thing to do, and nothing "polite" about it. I will say a pile of gunnies saw this thread, how it went down; none of them were impressed, and none were surprised when a mod showed up and gave me a warning for calling out what was distinctly a swing at me.

I went skimming through the forums last night, I might stick around I might not.  This interaction has seriously colored my perception of the way the people on this form act.  Words do matter along with behavior.  I think the most entertaining thread for me was this one.

Why? The comparision to being better than ARFcom stood out. While you may see yourselves as being better, I saw the exact same behavior I've seen from them many times before.  Here's my favorite.  I just kept my mouth shut, even though I am an ARFcom member.  A friend made a comment, and bumped me the link since he knew I wouldn't probably see it till that night, but the fact that they freaked out over the way I trimmed my beard behind my back, because that's what that whole thing was about right?

I'm looking at this as same crap, different day. Many of my friends looked at this and said it's just like every other forum on the planet. If you really want to color yourselves as being better than every place else, you have to act above the bar even when you think no one is watching. If you're a jerk only when no one is looking, you're still a jerk. Just because you feel here is better than out there, doesn't actually make it so.  It just may seem that way because you're comfortable with the people here.  From the outside you may just appear to be another group of the same, especially when threads like this end up being your opening interaction.

First impressions count on both sides and this one was a giant bag of suck and fail.  I may have been a bit more aggressive than I needed to be, but then again I was also engaging with someone basically talking crap thinking I was deaf and dumb (my perception of it).

Your level of butt hurt over this is appalling.  Get over it.

[Perd Hapley]

Minuteman,

About Brad's first post:

You related a personal experience on the internet, where anyone can read it. Some guy, who's never heard of you, read it and talked with his friends about his view of the matter. That's all that happened. He didn't disrespect you, or talk behind your back. He just noted some things that made him skeptical. He could have done so in a malicious way, but he didn't. Nor is he required to check with every sumdood on the 'nets before discussing his opinion of what sumdood made public about himself.

You could have made Brad look a little silly, if you had just pointed out the mistakes in his analysis, or gaps in his data set. Instead, you went overboard, and made yourself look bad.

The way you reacted to this, I'd have to advise you stop posting personal anecdotes out in the open. Unless your web page is so boring that no one ever links to it, this kind of thing will happen again. So, unless you like going through this kind of thing, just don't publicize stuff.

[Boomhauer]

left-handed Nazi dentist

ZE GERMAN PRECISION!

[Scout26]

I saw the solution at the NRA convention today.

[lupinus]

I saw the solution at the NRA convention today.

But where's the serial number located?

[roo_ster]

ZE GERMAN PRECISION!

"No, Dr. Hoffman, I would prefer not to have the gas for the root canal."