Author Topic: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???  (Read 65580 times)

WeedWhacker

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #75 on: May 12, 2008, 10:02:48 AM »
First you say that it's the market conditions that are influencing our currency, and those market conditions are in turn influenced by housing fraud.

Then you go on to imply that it's somehow the government (those in control of the presses, presumably) who is manipulating our currency.

Then you go on to imply that we've hired the metaphorical to thieves to protect our money supply.  But you said it was the fraudulent mortgage seekers that was causing our currency to lose value.  So are the mortgage seekers the thieves you think the government hired to guard the money supply?

It's "all of the above". The government, via the central bank, has the means to influence the value of the USD by both providing availability of credit to certain institutions, as well as the interest rate on the same. (It could also pay its debt service by simply "printing" money, which is the route Zimbabwe's government went, taking a corresponding hit to its currency.) Accordingly, the free market, as reflected in the US Dollar Index, has deemed the USD to be less valuable when compared to a basket of other currencies.

You've neglected to consider the matter of there being two groups of thieves bilking the commonfolk: the government and other fraudsters.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #76 on: May 12, 2008, 10:53:01 AM »
Ah, yes.  There isn't just the one bogeyman out to get you and your money, there are many.  And gold is the magical cure-all for all of them.

Like most fringe-Libertarian financial thought, it simply isn't rational.  That irony always amused me.

The bottom line is that risk is a fact of life in general, and finances in particular.  Gold won't change that.  In many ways, gold will increase the risks. 

"But... but... but...  gold is GOLD.  Gold is BETTER.  Goldstandardhyoperinflationgovernmentisevilblaaarrg!"

WeedWhacker

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #77 on: May 12, 2008, 11:45:11 AM »
Ah, yes.  There isn't just the one bogeyman out to get you and your money, there are many.  And gold is the magical cure-all for all of them.

Like most fringe-Libertarian financial thought, it simply isn't rational.  That irony always amused me.

The bottom line is that risk is a fact of life in general, and finances in particular.  Gold won't change that.  In many ways, gold will increase the risks. 

"But... but... but...  gold is GOLD.  Gold is BETTER.  Goldstandardhyoperinflationgovernmentisevilblaaarrg!"

Pfft, avoiding the issue doesn't make your case (or lack thereof) stronger.

Yes, there are boogeymen in the world today who wish to deprive you of the fruits of your labor. Making light of that fact does not change it. Having a currency based on a hard commodity ties inflation to that of the commodity, not to the whims of a few. Neither does it much matter if the chosen commodity is gold, silver, copper, etc. Denying that the current debasement of the US dollar was made possible by decoupling it from the gold standard is to deny reality. Is a metal-based commodity a perfect solution? No. Is it better than the current fiat model? By far.
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Bigjake

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #78 on: May 12, 2008, 12:18:42 PM »
Did you miss the part where other nations, possibly one without our best interests in mind, can toy with a gold standard like a cat playing with a mouse?

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #79 on: May 12, 2008, 01:26:41 PM »
Ah, yes.  There isn't just the one bogeyman out to get you and your money, there are many.  And gold is the magical cure-all for all of them.

Like most fringe-Libertarian financial thought, it simply isn't rational.  That irony always amused me.

The bottom line is that risk is a fact of life in general, and finances in particular.  Gold won't change that.  In many ways, gold will increase the risks. 

"But... but... but...  gold is GOLD.  Gold is BETTER.  Goldstandardhyoperinflationgovernmentisevilblaaarrg!"

Pfft, avoiding the issue doesn't make your case (or lack thereof) stronger.

Yes, there are boogeymen in the world today who wish to deprive you of the fruits of your labor. Making light of that fact does not change it. Having a currency based on a hard commodity ties inflation to that of the commodity, not to the whims of a few. Neither does it much matter if the chosen commodity is gold, silver, copper, etc. Denying that the current debasement of the US dollar was made possible by decoupling it from the gold standard is to deny reality. Is a metal-based commodity a perfect solution? No. Is it better than the current fiat model? By far.
We've been around and around on this one many times.  I forgot that you're new here, and probably haven't done this yet.

The money base must be expandable.  That's an economic reality.  If it's expanded too fast we have inflation, which is bad.  But if it isn't expanded fast enough, or if it isn't expanded at all, we have deflation.  Deflation is probably worse than inflation.  Just ask Japan.  Or FDR.

The Federal Reserve system allows the money base to be expanded deliberately and intelligently.  We may debate the rate at which to expand the money supply.  Different people have differing ideas.  But you cannot deny that the Fed can expand at whatever rate it chooses.  Nor can you deny that they employ many of the world's best economists and financial minds expressly for the purpose of trying to figure out just how much expansion we need.

Your alternative, the gold standard, ties money base expansion to the rate the gold-mining nations wish to allow their gold onto he open market.  They would literally have the power to cripple our economy.  Even if the Ruskies and Chicoms and South Africans did have our best interests at heart, they still couldn't produce enough gold to preserve our economy and prevent crippling deflation.  The money base is simply too big, and the necessary money base expansion would swallow up worldwide annual gold production.

Even if a gold standard were possible, and even if the Chicoms and Ruskies were acting in our best interests (neither of which will happen in our lifetime, but let's pretend for just a moment), the gold standard still wouldn't solve the problems you've listed throughout this thread.  The stock market would still fluctuate, causing people with investments to lose value.  Fraud would still exist, and Worldcoms and Enrons would still happen.  Inflation would still be possible, and its magnitude would be far more volatile than our fiat-system inflation.  Wild bouts deflation would also occur with alarming frequency.  That would make it impossible to make any long-term economic decisions, which would cripple investment and the economy at large. 

Once you remove all of the anti-government conspiracy theories and paranoia, the gold standard becomes far less appealing.  A rational, unemotional, objective assessment shows that the question isn't whether the gold standard is better than the Federal Reserve system.  That was long-ago decided in favor of fiat money.  The real question is how best to manage the Federal Reserve system.  A reasonable monetary policy absolutely stomps all over the gold standard, plain and simple.

Dntsycnt

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #80 on: May 12, 2008, 06:27:43 PM »
Okay, that makes sense.

I'm convinced.

But I shall NEVER vote McCain! 

K Frame

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #81 on: May 12, 2008, 08:09:36 PM »
"Oh, good. I'm glad that we've moved to a system where NONE of the money issued by ANY bank is backed by anything more than a kiss and a promise, with reserves on deposits are less than 10%, where bank fraud is rampant. (Worldcom, Enron, Bear Stearns, etc. - not having an account at such a bank in no way insulates you from the damage of liars at their helms.)"


Ok, Weedwhacker.

Explain to us.

Just exactly WHAT does a currency backed strictly by gold get us?

Does it get us a more stable economy, one that is less likely to have periodic recessions?

The answer to that is no, it doesn't. Regular severe recessions and depressions were a hallmark of times when the money was pegged strictly to gold. Since the ending of the gold standard in the United States there have been no depressions and our worst recessions pale in comparison to those of gold-backed currencies.

Is the economy less likely to see inflationary periods?

Another no. Periods of hyper inflation were common when the US was on the gold standard.

Does a gold-backed economy allow for adjustments that can head off or lessen the effects of a recession?

Once again, yet another no. If anything, economies with gold-backed currency are extremely resistant to this kind of course corrections. This is one reason why recessions and depressions in the days of a gold-backed currency would so regular and so resistant to corrections.

So, three major negatives. Let's here what the supposed benefits of a gold-based currency are.


Oh, and in the days of gold-backed currency?

A company the side of Bear Sterns going under would have caused a massive financial panic and would have led to a recession, or worse, a prolonged depression. As it was, it was largely a blip on the screen.

Oh, and where did you ever get the idea that Bear Sterns or Enron were banks?



"The paper scrips most Americans consider money is actually nothing more than ink on paper."

And gold is nothing more than a metal. A pretty metal, but like zinc, copper, and iron, nothing more than a metal.

The only reason gold has been recognized as a currency is because people agree that it has some intrinsic value.

In that sense, gold is NO different than that $20 bank note of ink and paper.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Ron Paul??? WTF???
« Reply #82 on: May 12, 2008, 08:10:26 PM »
Show me a "free banking" system that did not, oh, I don't know...FAIL?

Because they all did. Every. Single. One. In the US, the free banking was horribly unstable, and different banks' notes changed value depending on their credit rating. Plus they were backed by...(gasp) precious metal! Obsession with the gold standard again.

Also, FDIC insurance is one of the only things the government does right. Do you want to put your money in a bank where it can go away if the bank does? Do you not remember what happened with that online "Flooz" thing?

So come on. Point to a "free banking" system that still exists. Go ahead.


No, they did not all 'fail'. Some of them were abolished by their respective governments, which is not the same as failing. This is again an illogical argument on the same rationale of "everybody in the world does it, so it must be right."

Practically every nation in the world operates a progressive income tax system (there's maybe 10, 15 exemptions, Russia being the major one), and yet I think we're both in agreement in our opposition to that system.

Further, you are incorrect when you state that most banks in the free banking system were unstable (as demonstrated in my sources), or relied on precious metal (very often, stock in companies was used as the backing).
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K Frame

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #83 on: May 12, 2008, 08:17:21 PM »
"Some of them were abolished by their respective governments..."

And, for the most part, the reason those respective governments abolished those kinds of banking systems were because of the regular, and very often extremely messy, failures of such a system.

This type of banking/currency system was abandoned because the entire concept was an outright failure and the inherent liability was FAR too great.
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LAK

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #84 on: May 12, 2008, 10:16:01 PM »
Show me a fiat money system that has not bankrupted a nation

MicroBalrog

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #85 on: May 13, 2008, 04:45:07 AM »
I watch this become an argument of two sides  on one hand, Weedwhacker and LAK, arguing for a gold standard  a literal, King Louis-XIV-era gold standard, and on the other, Manedwolf and Mike Irwin, arging for the modern fiat money system, and further suggesting that somehow anybody who disagrees with them is flat out insane or has no clue about economics (tinfoilhattery? Loony? Fringe? isn't rational? that was long ago decided?).

Look, my argument is as follows:

1.While you may disagree with free banking, there is a variety of economists who support it. It may be a minority view, but it's not flat-out-insane.
2.Furthermore, a Presidential candidate's support for free banking, gold standards, or any other alternative to the current system, does not disqualify him from the Presidency. The Fed cannot be abolished by executive fiat, and is one of the most entrenched institutions of modern economic life. At best, such a candidate's participation in the process can cause a mainstreaming of the argument about monetary system.

Note that nowhere did I rip off my shirt, throw chairs, or argue against the Fed. Right now, I am focusing on merely the fact (uncontested by Manedwolf) that there exists a minority of economists who support this view, who do not, apparently, wear tinfoil, and that though you may disagree with this position, it does not disqualify Ron Paul, nor does it make him a bad candidate. The best/worst RP could do on this issue is bring it into discussion again.
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WeedWhacker

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #86 on: May 13, 2008, 04:55:43 AM »
Just exactly WHAT does a currency backed strictly by gold get us?

Does it get us a more stable economy, one that is less likely to have periodic recessions?

The answer to that is no, it doesn't. Regular severe recessions and depressions were a hallmark of times when the money was pegged strictly to gold. Since the ending of the gold standard in the United States there have been no depressions and our worst recessions pale in comparison to those of gold-backed currencies.

Seen the costs of staples at the market lately? Have you examined the activity of the stock market for the last year or so? What's flour and gas going for in your neck of the woods? Your suggesting that the Fed has prevented economic instabilities since its inception is laughable. What is has done is destroy the value of the US' currency, and it has done that very well.

Your other statements/questions have already been addressed in previous posts in this thread.


Show me a fiat money system that has not bankrupted a nation

This. Exactly.


Quote from: MicroBalrog
I watch this become an argument of two sides  on one hand, Weedwhacker and LAK, arguing for a gold standard  a literal, King Louis-XIV-era gold standard

I beg to differ. I am against the government's mandate that their fiat currency be the only one in circulation. (Before you object, take careful note of what happened to the Liberty Dollar folks.) I agree that a "gold" standard has its problems, to include the matter of the gold market being very small in comparison to many others, which is also why I explicitly mentioned other metals (silver, even copper) as a way of suggesting that while the currency must be tied to *something* to prevent the abuses we've seen the USD subjected to, it does not necessarily need to be gold.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #87 on: May 13, 2008, 04:58:05 AM »
"Fiat". The favorite word of Paulians.


MicroBalrog

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #88 on: May 13, 2008, 05:00:46 AM »
Got a better argument than a screenshot from an awful movie?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

WeedWhacker

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #89 on: May 13, 2008, 05:03:25 AM »
"Fiat". The favorite word of Paulians.


Quote from: thefreedictionary.com
fi·at  (ft, -t, -ät, ft, -t) n.
1. An arbitrary order or decree.
2. Authorization or sanction: government fiat.

How does that definition not apply to the "backed by the full faith and in-the-hole-for-nine-plus-trillion credit of the United States"?


Got a better argument than a screenshot from an awful movie?

Okay, that's it. You've gone too far. Insinuating that The Princess Bride isn't the best movie, ever, has now proven that you know absolutely nothing, in fact, less than nothing. Long live the FRN USD!

;)
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #90 on: May 13, 2008, 05:11:00 AM »
so where does the ron paul banking system work? currently in the real world.

and how many liberty dollars you guys got stashed away? rolleyes
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

K Frame

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #91 on: May 13, 2008, 06:02:05 AM »
Wow. I NEVER knew that inflation was an invention of the so-called fiat money system, WeedWhacker.

You're telling us that the cost of a pound of flour in Thurungia in a.d. 872 was the exact same as a pound flour in Detroit in 1932?

That's amazing.

In reality, episodic inflation, and hyperinflation, is not only possible with a currency tied to a gold standard, it's inevitable.

The inflation in prices we're seeing right now is nothing compared to the kind of inflation in prices that could, and did, happen in economies tied to a strict gold standard.

"Your suggesting that the Fed has prevented economic instabilities since its inception is laughable."

That right there tells me that you know absolutely nothing about the subject.

The Federal Reserve was created in 1913. The United States was still on the Gold Standard until 1933 -- 20 years.

In those 20 years there were two recessions, one minor, one pretty bad, followed by the Granddaddy of them all, the Great Depression.

Federal Reserve economic policy as it stands today was largely created from 1935 onwards, with the majority of it occurring in the years after WW II.

Since World War II, roughly 60 years, there have been 5 recessions, 4 of them rather minor, one moderate to severe, and NO depressions.

In the 60 years prior to the creation of the Fed, there were at least 4 major depressions (or panics), and numerous recessions in that time. Go back even farther, and it's a much bleaker picture.

Finally, answer the question.

Answer the question as to what is so economically wonderous about a strict gold standard.

Tell us, in detail, why pegging a currency to a strict metallic standard is, or would be, such a tremendous benefit.
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oldfart

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #92 on: May 13, 2008, 08:27:42 AM »
I probably shouldn't get into this but... what the hell.

"You're telling us that the cost of a pound of flour in Thurungia in a.d. 872 was the exact same as a pound flour in Detroit in 1932?"

I can't tell you much about flour but I do have this little tid-bit:  In Roman times a laborer who worked in the fields for about a month was paid (in today's funds) about $500.  In fact, that was what Judas was paid for betraying Jesus -- 30 pieces of silver.  As I type this, silver is worth $16.74 an ounce -- $502.20!!  Evidently, metals do hold their value pretty well over the years.

Manedwolf

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #93 on: May 13, 2008, 08:38:11 AM »
I probably shouldn't get into this but... what the hell.

"You're telling us that the cost of a pound of flour in Thurungia in a.d. 872 was the exact same as a pound flour in Detroit in 1932?"

I can't tell you much about flour but I do have this little tid-bit:  In Roman times a laborer who worked in the fields for about a month was paid (in today's funds) about $500.  In fact, that was what Judas was paid for betraying Jesus -- 30 pieces of silver.  As I type this, silver is worth $16.74 an ounce -- $502.20!!  Evidently, metals do hold their value pretty well over the years.

Wrong. If you bought gold in the early 80's, you'd just now be breaking even on value, accounting for inflation. Barely breaking even.

Yeah, that's a great investment there.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #94 on: May 13, 2008, 09:11:44 AM »
I probably shouldn't get into this but... what the hell.

"You're telling us that the cost of a pound of flour in Thurungia in a.d. 872 was the exact same as a pound flour in Detroit in 1932?"

I can't tell you much about flour but I do have this little tid-bit:  In Roman times a laborer who worked in the fields for about a month was paid (in today's funds) about $500.  In fact, that was what Judas was paid for betraying Jesus -- 30 pieces of silver.  As I type this, silver is worth $16.74 an ounce -- $502.20!!  Evidently, metals do hold their value pretty well over the years.
Huh?

I don't pretend to be a Biblical scholar, but I do believe Judas' price was 30 shekels of silver, not 30 ounces.  Ounces didn't exist back in Jesus' day, dontcha know.  According to an online unit conversion site, 30 shekels is only 12 ounces.  At today's prices that would be only $200.

I have no idea what labor cost in Roman times, but I do know that, even if it was $500 a month, it has no bearing on what Judas was paid, nor on current labor or metal prices.  It does nothing to enlighten the discussion on inflation or gold-standard vs Fed Reserve. 

If you were aiming to show that metals are worth the same today as they were in ancient Roman times, I think you missed.

zahc

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #95 on: May 13, 2008, 09:39:02 AM »
Quote
Then there's the overall matter of the USD as a fiat currency being destroyed over time: inflation has destroyed ~97% of the "dollar"'s value since fiat money was introduced as the "dollar". Save $100 in 1913, and now you'd have three cents of value left.
math check

Quote
In reality, episodic inflation, and hyperinflation, is not only possible with a currency tied to a gold standard, it's inevitable.
Could you please explain how that is, for those of us who are interested? It would seem to my primitive mind that may not be able to grasp economic theory, that if a dollar literally corresponded to an ounce of gold, that the only way inflation could happen would be to mine (or meltdown) gold.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #96 on: May 13, 2008, 09:45:33 AM »
Zahc, as was covered before, most gold being mined right now comes from China, who could dump more on the world market or hold it back as they see fit to pull puppet strings.

Why do people keep thinking that gold is American, and not a commodity mined around the world?

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #97 on: May 13, 2008, 09:51:47 AM »
Quote
In reality, episodic inflation, and hyperinflation, is not only possible with a currency tied to a gold standard, it's inevitable.
Could you please explain how that is, for those of us who are interested? It would seem to my primitive mind that may not be able to grasp economic theory, that if a dollar literally corresponded to an ounce of gold, that the only way inflation could happen would be to mine (or meltdown) gold.
Prices are determined by the relative value of the money vs the relative value of the item being priced.  Value of either is determined by supply and demand.

Demand for money changes all the time.  Even if the supply of money was fixed, it's value would still be dependent upon fluctuations within the economy at large, due to changing demand for money.  And for the record, the gold standard will not, cannot, keep the supply of money fixed.

Obviously the supply and demand of the items we buy varies, too.  Take food as an example.  Over time the demand for food grows, if only because the population grows.  If farm production (supply of food) doesn't increase to keep pace with the increase in demand, the prices of food will rise.  The result will be food price inflation.

That's a good microcosm for what's happening in the world economy now.  The supply of money is growing relatively slowly.  It isn't fixed, but it's darned close to fixed.  Over the past few decades, many nations of the world (China, India, South America, former USSR  nations...) have embraced capitalism and produced some semblance of prosperity within their populations.  All of those people are now able to bid for commodities on the global markets.  Prices of all globally traded commodities (oil, metals, grains, etc) are rising sharply because of increased demand coupled with no increase in supply. 

WeedWhacker

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #98 on: May 13, 2008, 10:47:46 AM »
If you bought gold in the early 80's, you'd just now be breaking even on value, accounting for inflation. Barely breaking even.

Yeah, that's a great investment there.

Cherry-pick your arguments much?


Quote from: zahc
math check

D'oh. Fixed, thanks.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #99 on: May 13, 2008, 10:50:55 AM »
If you bought gold in the early 80's, you'd just now be breaking even on value, accounting for inflation. Barely breaking even.

Yeah, that's a great investment there.

Cherry-pick your arguments much?


And you point, for "proof", to a site that has this banner?  cheesy



Quote
Call 800-289-2646 or register below for a FREE copy of FED: FRAUD OF THE CENTURY. As a bonus, you'll also receive Swiss America's "Rare Opportunity" DVD, booklet and CD featuring WND founder Joseph Farah.

Hosted from their site, yet, not even an external sponsor! That image is ON their server. As are the ads for...surprise! Ron Paul's new book the site owner is getting a sponsored cut of sales from through Amazon.

I got a bridge to sell you. Cheap. Interested?

Man. The Paulians have become a niche market for goods now, sort of like how "anti-establishment" pseudogoths will buy anything Hot Topic puts in the window. Bunch of nonconformists that are all alike, and oh, so easy to sell to.

Addition: It gets even better. This banner belongs to that site, too. They want you to buy buy buy gold...through them!



Damn, I gotta come up with some jingoistic products to sell to Paulians. I mean, wow. Talk about easy marks.