Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: roo_ster on August 15, 2012, 12:33:32 PM
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http://fairfaxcity.patch.com/articles/what-happened-to-america-s-dog
During the first half of the 20th century, Pit Bulls were the closest thing the United States had to a national dog. They were featured on U.S. recruiting posters in World Wars I and II, prominently featured as corporate mascots and cast as the ideal family dog in television and movies.
Now the breed is demonized and battles everything from a media-driven reputation for being predators, to abuse from their owners, to legislation that seeks to outlaw their existence. How did this happen to a dog that was once America’s sweetheart?
Don't own an APBT or any sort of bully dog, but grew up around them. I didn't learn what an horrific menace they were until the 1980s local news clips invalidated my experience nearly as much as if as a bunny with a pancake on top its head were posted in response.
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IMO Combination of factors:
1. Some breeds of dogs really are, on average, less likely to put up with crap from other creatures (Other dogs, people, whatever.) obviously individual dogs vary, but breed traits do exist.
2. Bigger dogs do more damage when they bite. IIRC the CDC lists Jack Russel Terriers and Yorkies as the breeds with the most reported bites, but they do very little damage when they do.
3. Large have become more popular amongs American subcultures that don't seem to understand, or care, about living with large preditors that don't neccesarily think like people.*
Pitts are at the epicenter of all three of these factors.
*No really. I have it out with stupid dog owners all the time. see those big pointy teeth your dogs have? That means they eat little creatures. It's neither cute, nor acceptable, for your dog to be aggressive or dominant. Control the damn thing!
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APBT is not a particularly large breed of dogs.
Any dog with a blocky head is likely to be called a "pitbull" by the news.
Cocker Spaniel is the breed that I don't trust. They can go berserk without warning.
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I totally distrust weiner dogs.
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Insanity is the norm for chihuahuas. (Just be glad they don't grow to 100 lbs!)
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I'm just as afraid of Chow and other breeds, some of which will bite without warning. It's stupid to focus on a particular breed.
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I totally distrust weiner dogs.
I've got a nice scar on my index finger from an angry wienie dog. Little *expletive deleted*er loves fingers...
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Walking Harlow around my neighborhood, I and my wife on separate occasions have been approached by certain demographics who are intently interested in her. Some kids, not even teens yet, tried to cajole Mrs. Dual to breed her for a share of the pups. (Harlow was neutered in rescue before we even had her...)
She's not even full ABPT, some boxer or American Bull-Dog mixed in. She's too tall and slender and doesn't even have much "bully" to her physique or stance.
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My kids, on the other hand, noose poles, and tranquilizer darts are SOP.
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SOB! I had a long, detailed history of the breed and the politics and whatnot written up, and my browser ate it. :mad:
I'll come back later and re write it.
Dachsands are breed to go down badger holes and get the badgers. You'd be a little mean too.
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Pits in general are great dogs. Many are some of the sweetest, best, most loyal dogs you'll ever come across.
The problem is piss poor breeding and encouraging bad behavior. When jackass hood rats and meth head rednecks breed dogs with bad traits and encourage/train bad behavior because they want a badass dog of course the damned thing is going to be aggressive and out of line with the breed standard. But with pits, properly bred and trained, it's a rarity.
Little dogs with a strong prey instinct are the ones more likely to naturally be little shits IMO.
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Insanity is the norm for chihuahuas. (Just be glad they don't grow to 100 lbs!)
We've got one that thinks she is 300 pounds :P
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We've got one that thinks she is 300 pounds :P
Heh. I dunno if the wifes chihuahua thinks he weighs 300 or not, but he sure as hell don't give a hoot.
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Pits in general are great dogs. Many are some of the sweetest, best, most loyal dogs you'll ever come across.
The problem is piss poor breeding and encouraging bad behavior. When jackass hood rats and meth head rednecks breed dogs with bad traits and encourage/train bad behavior because they want a badass dog of course the damned thing is going to be aggressive and out of line with the breed standard. But with pits, properly bred and trained, it's a rarity.
Little dogs with a strong prey instinct are the ones more likely to naturally be little shits IMO.
Amen.
Despite cajoling her to get a mixed breed rescue of some sort, my mother went and spent X thousands on a Westie instead. And "little *expletive deleted*it" describes that dog to a T.
It's run away a few times, and barks at everything with a piercing ear-shattering yap.
Of course it's "just loveable" enough that my parents will tolerate the dog for the next 15-odd years it lives. :P
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Of course it's "just loveable" enough that my parents will tolerate the dog for the next 15-odd years it lives. :P
Personal testimony?
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The worst dog bite I ever received was from a Pekinese.
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Pits in general are great dogs. Many are some of the sweetest, best, most loyal dogs you'll ever come across.
The problem is piss poor breeding and encouraging bad behavior. When jackass hood rats and meth head rednecks breed dogs with bad traits and encourage/train bad behavior because they want a badass dog of course the damned thing is going to be aggressive and out of line with the breed standard. But with pits, properly bred and trained, it's a rarity.
Little dogs with a strong prey instinct are the ones more likely to naturally be little shits IMO.
First of all, Pit Bulls don't have a real breed standard. They are not recongnized by the AKC (and CKC is a joke registry, don't get me started)
The AKC reconginises the American Staffidshire Terrior. A good Am. Staff is basically a Pit Bull with a "good head", square, broad, with a boxy muzzle, they also tend to be a bit more blocky and broad all over.
They have the same instints as those little terriors, but are often still being bred to purpose, and it's not a nice one.
Pit bulls are the breeding dregs. Your average pit is not more then a couple generations off a fighting line. Dog fighting may be illegal, but it's still out there and more commen then you think.
That temperment breeds true. These dogs are survivalist, surviving conditions that would make anyone nuts. Sensitive to surrondings, and responding to perseved threats with aggression and dominace.
You have two types of bad owners when it comes to mastif types, bullys, and pit dogs. You have the aholes who want to "make 'em mean" and the idiots who think it's just like the Labs and Retreviers, just with bad reputations because of what they look like.
It's not just looks. I'm always wary when we have a new pit come in to board. Especially, intact males. These breeds are dominate. They can and will try to dominate anyone that comes around them.
Plus, they are built to kill. Those jaws are basically terriors on steriods. Big and well muscled.
They also generally react to fear with aggression. They very much have the mindset of "a good defence is a strong offence"
They can be great pets. Loyality and strong bonds with their people are commen. A good pit or Staff only dangorous traits should be a wicked tail wag and the ability to smother the unsuspecting with kisses.
However, it's not a breed for someone who doesn't understand what they are capable of and how their minds work. Issues with dog agression are commen. Think a Jack Russel after a rat and then understand that pit types are breed to think of other dogs as the rat. Any history with abuse or bad training can compounds these aggression and dominace traits tenfold. Every so often, you'll find one in a shelter who jumps at it's own shadow and has no cofindance, but that is not a typical example.
I dislike the misleading nature of the mentality that "Pits are PERFECT, just misunderstood!" because, while they are misunderstood, they are no more "perfect" then any other breed, and unlike some breeds, REQUIRE the work, effort and control to raise them as the great pets they can be.
I absolutly loath people that "make 'em mean." But in a way, I hate the idiots more. The ones that make 'em mean generally know better them to take them to the dog park or leave them alone with children. The idiots, on the other hand, do. And it's a terrible accident waiting to happen, and the real victim is the dog and the breed.
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This would go a long way towards redeeming the species.
One simply cannot demonize a pit bull in a tutu. ;)
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the problem with pits is at the two legged end of the leash
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Personal testimony?
I made it 21 years there, so yeah. =D
However, it's not a breed for someone who doesn't understand what they are capable of and how their minds work. Issues with dog agression are commen. Think a Jack Russel after a rat and then understand that pit types are breed to think of other dogs as the rat. Any history with abuse or bad training can compounds these aggression and dominace traits tenfold. Every so often, you'll find one in a shelter who jumps at it's own shadow and has no cofindance, but that is not a typical example.
There's a lot of truth here.
Harlow is a mixed part-pit spayed female who's about 4 years old. She is extremely dog aggressive. And we have to watch her for that. Yet, she's terrified of thunder and fireworks, no matter how distant.
With people, her one flaw is being overly affectionate, jumping into laps uninvited. The newer someone is, the better she likes them. Other dogs, she wants to either fight or is only okay with them after dominating. She's good on a leash, but off leash... never. We don't allow it. She co-existed fine with other dogs in rescue, and sometimes with a friend's or family member's dog for short periods, but it's just too unpredictable, so better safe than sorry, and we only keep her around people.
I think it's partly the dog-on-dog aggressiveness of the breed, partly the jackwagons from whatever "home" she originally came from, and probably part her experiences of pack hierarchy with other dogs while she was a stray. When we got her she was covered in scars and scabs, and she had already had 6 months to heal in rescue. I can't even imagine what she looked like when she was first taken in at the TN kill shelter the rescue org got her from.
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That's all true BSL. Breed traits need to be understood for any dog someone is going to own. And there's more then enough that that I'd be very wary of taking in a pit of unknown breeding.
My point is that the bigger problem usually lie with the idiots who breed for the bad traits because they want the aggressive dog.
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I'm just as afraid of Chow and other breeds, some of which will bite without warning. It's stupid to focus on a particular breed.
Bingo!
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Lupinus,
I think it's bigger then that. The idiot owner issue isn't just with the pit bulls. It's crossing all breeds. The pits get the rap because they are big and powerful and can kill a human.
Educating people about dogs, breed specifics and what is and is not good breeding will go a long way towards putting the bad breeders and the aholes out of business. We also need to take a more active stance on dog fighting (and the other blood sports that still are popular and out there)
Our culture has changed drastically in how we treat companion animals, and the not really for the better. We have forgotten that most of the dogs where breed for a purpose and the tendancy and tempermemts of that breeding doesn't disapear just because the job the dog was breed for has largely disappeared or isn't needed.
The other really nasty one is the smaller terriors, especially the Jack Russel and Parsons terriors. People will put these little ones, unsepervised with small children and WHAM you have a seriously injured child. Just last month a baby ended up in the hospital with life threatening injuries via a jack russel around here.
The accidents and issues you hear about on the news arn't generally the bad seed breeders. Those guys know what they're doing is illigal and keep it hidden and in the shadows.
The accidents are the people who don't understand what they have, what it's breed for and what it is capable of.
Any dog can become a dangorous entity. Any dog can be deadly under the wrong circumstances. Knowing what your dog is capable of, how his mind works and what his breed and personal history is (even if it's conjecture) is the key. They don't just magically adapt to us, we have to do the adapting. People seeing their dogs through these rose colored lenses is what is getting us in trouble.
My own dogs have issues. I love them dearly, but Pearl is not trust worthy around strangers and I do have to watch her and tell people how to react to her behavior. She's also nasty around other dogs. Graham will (and has tried and almost succeded) kill cats, and shouldn't be left alone with small children. He's snappy and he wants to heard. Hell, the only one I would trust is Southwest, who is lab/chow/shepherd, and that's not as much due to his training, as it is his consistantly mild behavior under every circumstance he's been in.
They're are a LOT of people out there who get dogs, know nothing about there dogs, fail to acknowledge the faults and tendancy of their dogs and then wail when the accident comes. This is ignorance, not bad breeding.
There are not many animals who cannot be rehabilitated. Unfortunatly, those who can are few, far between and have limitations on how many they can save.
If people were better educated about dogs, we could decrease the instances of problem dogs, dramatically.
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Any dog can be deadly under the wrong circumstances.
You don't want to get in the way of our Golden Retriever's wagging tail :O
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I have the trifecta of doggie goofiness going on in my home.
A Jack Russell, an Eskie and a Pit Bull puppy.
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I have a Pit Bull that wandered into our yard and "adopted" us. Tried to give it to a good home, but he ran away from them & came back to us. We had to keep him then. In demeanor, he makes the Cowardly Lion look like a WWE wrestler. Once, a teenager walking by our house asked if he bites. I replied, "No, but I do."
He actually doesn't have to be mean. While any intruder is focused on Bulldog, Dingo (yes, an actual dingo) sneaks up behind them....I don't get many uninvited guests.... =D
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Insanity is the norm for chihuahuas. (Just be glad they don't grow to 100 lbs!)
Agirl I used to know was babysitting a flock of chihuahuas, she always left her door unlocked and I had personal belongings inside I needed - I was immediately surrounded by the chi dogs, & I said "awwww look at the little guard doggies, I am skeeeeeered" that really angered one of them who launched herself on my calf.....it hurt for two weeks!
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Our Chewawa is half Basenji, we think ???
She yodels =D
Apparently, some SOB dumped a litter up here in the hills in the winter, and she was the only one that survived =| :mad:
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Amen.
Despite cajoling her to get a mixed breed rescue of some sort, my mother went and spent X thousands on a Westie instead. And "little *expletive deleted*" describes that dog to a T.
It's run away a few times, and barks at everything with a piercing ear-shattering yap.
Of course it's "just loveable" enough that my parents will tolerate the dog for the next 15-odd years it lives. :P
I don't understand at all why people will piss away thousands on ugly little yapping shithead dogs as status symbols. I just don't get it. They arent cute and are always annoying as hell.
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I don't understand at all why people will piss away thousands on ugly little yapping shithead dogs as status symbols. I just don't get it. They arent cute and are always annoying as hell.
I like westies and the like. Terriors are awesome. The issue is they're really not meant to live in the house as just pets. Like BC's they need more in their lives. Lot's of crazy westies in the world, but whem you come across the good ones, you find out why they're so popular.
I used to loath a lot of toy breeds, particularly Pomarianians. Now, I would own a Pom in a heartbeat. They have really dynamic and clownish personalitys in a very compact form. A good Pom is hard to hate.
But bad ones, man, bad ones can drive you up a wall.
The one breed, though, that I hated before and still hate now are Cocker Spanials. Mind you, I hate the American Cockers, not the English ones, and yes, there is a diffrence. The English Cockers are still functional feild dogs and are still used for hunting, they are the orginals and they still can do what they were orginally breed to do.
The American Cockers where basterized into fashionable pets. They got "pretty" (although I think they are actually the uglier of the two breeds) with longer thicker coats, and they got dumb. Really, really dumb.
I love bird dogs, but they don't generally have a lot of smarts to begin with. Feathery tails and feathery brains. The ditzes of the dog world. The fact that someone took a bird dog and actually, intentionally bred it to be dumber then the orginal is total WTF :facepalm:
I hate the stupid, hyper, little bastards. The lot of them are dumber then a box of rocks and make Pearl look like a canine Albert Enstien.
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IMO Combination of factors:
1. Some breeds of dogs really are, on average, less likely to put up with crap from other creatures (Other dogs, people, whatever.) obviously individual dogs vary, but breed traits do exist.
2. Bigger dogs do more damage when they bite. IIRC the CDC lists Jack Russel Terriers and Yorkies as the breeds with the most reported bites, but they do very little damage when they do.
3. Large have become more popular amongs American subcultures that don't seem to understand, or care, about living with large preditors that don't neccesarily think like people.*
Pitts are at the epicenter of all three of these factors.
*No really. I have it out with stupid dog owners all the time. see those big pointy teeth your dogs have? That means they eat little creatures. It's neither cute, nor acceptable, for your dog to be aggressive or dominant. Control the damn thing!
No one disputes dog breeds have in born tendencies to certain behaviours. Some breeds cough cough Fila Brasileros cough cough have human aggression as part of their breed standard. But it is absolutely incorrect to say that pit bulls display human aggression as an in born trait, aside from the ones meth heads and gang bangers breed. They take a dog, brutalize it, and selectively breed for aggression. Any breed that was treated this way would be dangerous.
Back in the day when dog fighting was a more formalized sport ala horse racing, any hint of human aggression was immediately culled. The dog's owners would go into the pit and grab the dogs mid fight, usually several times in one match. Obviously they didn't want a dog that would bite humans, even under those conditions, as the breeders are the ones who would get bitten.
Now dog fighting is largely the realm of the aforementioned trailer trash and gang bangers and the old formal rules are not followed.
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No one disputes dog breeds have in born tendencies to certain behaviours. Some breeds cough cough Fila Brasileros cough cough have human aggression as part of their breed standard. But it is absolutely incorrect to say that pit bulls display human aggression as an in born trait, aside from the ones meth heads and gang bangers breed. They take a dog, brutalize it, and selectively breed for aggression. Any breed that was treated this way would be
I don't recall saying that.
Pit's, like Liz said, are more likely as a breed to respond to stress with aggression. That's the breed trait.
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Let me repeat what Balog said as it is the truth.
Historically, Pits that showed any hint of human aggression were not bred and were not fought. There was a decades long process of breeding aggression towards humans out of the breed.
There were three folks in the ring with the dogs generally, can't have a man biter in the ring.
The thugs and idiots have just about ruined the breed though. Indiscriminate or wrong headed breeding has taken its toll.
If you could find a pure fighting line going back to the "heyday" of dogfighting and get a puppy you would get a lovable little dog with little to no human aggression but plenty of innate potential aggression toward other dogs.
For the record I am opposed to all dog fighting, even including dog fights over bones and toys that take place in my home.
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Let me repeat what Balog said as it is the truth.
Historically, Pits that showed any hint of human aggression were not bred and were not fought. There was a decades long process of breeding aggression towards humans out of the breed.
There were three folks in the ring with the dogs generally, can't have a man biter in the ring.
The thugs and idiots have just about ruined the breed though. Indiscriminate or wrong headed breeding has taken its toll.
If you could find a pure fighting line going back to the "heyday" of dogfighting and get a puppy you would get a lovable little dog with little to no human aggression but plenty of innate potential aggression toward other dogs.
For the record I am opposed to all dog fighting, even including dog fights over bones and toys that take place in my home.
Any dog can be aggressive to humans with the right stimuli.
Breeds with strong traits of dominace and aggression are like having a hair trigger.
I know of several breeds that are traditionally much more dangorous to people then other dogs. The Black Russian Terrior, for example, usually doesn't give a crap about other dogs in it's vicinity, but will take an unsuspecting face off any person that gets close and acts stupid.
However, just because a BRT isn't going to go after dogs willienillie doesn't mean I'd let one of my dogs run up to one and get pushy. The BRT is just not a pushover type breed, and with their history of being a dominate and aggressive animal, their responce to ANY perseaved challenge is generally going to involve teeth.
Any breed with a fighting/gaurding background (and this includes Anatolians) have traits for confidance and to be dominate. Combine that with aggression and a wrong move is going to end up with someone bloody, and usually it's not the dog.
Yes, dogs from such lines are going to display LESS aggression towards humans, in general. But it's a mistake to think they would never bite someone, and it's foolish to think that the can be completly trustworthy around every person they encounter.
Stress, challenges, perseved threats and fear can make any dog dangourous and breeds with traits of dominace and agression are more likely to become so.
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A couple of Great Pyrenes nearly killed a friend of ours a couple years ago =(
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<----- bit on ass by Rhodesian ridgeback.
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<----- bit on ass by Rhodesian ridgeback.
What was her name?
;) =D =D =D
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Just because they are wearing high heels doesn't mean they're friendly!
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Taking a statement that applies to all dog breeds and trying to use it as evidence of the danger of pit bulls is silly and disingenuous.
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Taking a statement that applies to all dog breeds and trying to use it as evidence of the danger of pit bulls is silly and disingenuous.
Stress, challenges, perseved threats and fear can make any dog dangourous and breeds with traits of dominace and agression are more likely to become so
[sarcasam] but of course you would know more about this then me, what with your VAST experiance working with companion animals [/sarcasm]
;/
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What was her name?
;) =D =D =D
Don't ask.....don't tell.....
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What was her name?
;) =D =D =D
Daisy. As in pushing up daisies.
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Georgia woman who rescued animals killed in dog attack
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/17/georgia-woman-who-rescued-animals-killed-in-dog-attack/?test=latestnews
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Looking at the thread title, is the Pit Bull "America's Dog" or just terrier breeds?
I grew up with mostly mutts anyway so the idea of some predominant breed being "American" seems a strange idea.
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Georgia woman who rescued animals killed in dog attack
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/17/georgia-woman-who-rescued-animals-killed-in-dog-attack/?test=latestnews
Sad to see something like that. Not too common, but I guess you always have to be real weary of dogs you don't know.
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Even dogs you know. A pack ain't pretty. And if you stop being alpha to one you are in trouble. If. One dog hits you the others may well follow.
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Georgia woman who rescued animals killed in dog attack
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/17/georgia-woman-who-rescued-animals-killed-in-dog-attack/?test=latestnews
Sad to see something like that. Not too common, but I guess you always have to be real weary of dogs you don't know.
There are not many people in this world I would think capable of taking a Presa as a houseguest. Especially not with a pit, a boxer mix and another Presa already in the house.
Ten bucks one dog got pissy with one of the other dogs, war broke out and girl tried to step in to break it up.
People who devote themselves to rescue work are either really smart and dedicated or real idiots. You don't really see much middle ground. Sounds like somebody got in way over her head.
When dogs like that get to fighting, getting them to stop is excedingly dangorous and extreamly difficult. I absolutly loath when the Anatolians get into it. The only thing worse then having dogs die, is having a major dog fight that has to be broken up.
Two Presa's? Yeah, I don't think I would even try to break it up. =|
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co2 fire extinguisher or stinger rounds
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co2 fire extinguisher or stinger rounds
you'd have to incapacitate both dogs simutaniously to save both.
The CO2 is a good idea though. Maybe I'll ask katie. A fire extinguisher in the feed room might have broken up the Dinah/Queenie battle without as much damage.
Hmmmm... Now that I think of it...
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i had a husky lab mix female that was very dog aggresive. she tied up with a rhodesian ridgeback. the stinger rounds made em both haul butt. i was too close broke their skin
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co2 fire extinguisher or stinger rounds
Stingers? You mean the CCI .22LR varmint ammo?
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i had a husky lab mix female that was very dog aggresive. she tied up with a rhodesian ridgeback. the stinger rounds made em both haul butt. i was too close broke their skin
The problem with that is we're dealing with breeding and showing dogs. First priority is (obviously) getting the fight stopped and the instigators seperated without injury, but the other priority is getting the fight stopped and seperated before the injuries start getting to the point of going to leave obvious scars. Luckly, Anatolians are pretty fuzzy, so most dings don't show, and, technically, it's not supposed to count against them (it's in the standard, they are working dogs, after all, it's expected they might get a bit banged up sometimes) but face, legs and ears, it just doesn't look nice and people get fussy about it.
A way to stop it early, and be able to seperate them before it got really nasty without hurting them in the process would be nice.
The only thing is, something like that could also escalate it.The water hose just pisses most of them off more (I've tried spraying them to stop fence fights, doesn't work. They just get louder ;/ )
These darn dogs, they don't go at it all that often, usually they work it out with a little tussle and everyones happy again, but every once in a blue moon, somebody gets pissed off and the other one decides to not back down. And once they get to that point, man, it's hell to get them off each other. They have a pain tolerance that's insane and, once they're fixated, you have to literally pry them off.
Scares the bejesus out of me.
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Before I got Bulldog, we had a neighbor's poorly-trained pit that wandered in our yard & threatened our Yorkie-Poodle mix. BB's from my Red Ryder didn't faze it....but a round or two of Colibris through a bolt-action .22lr seemed to convince his butt that it was time to leave. He didn't come back while I was around.
Later, he did attack our Yorkie. Our dog survived & healed. Next time I saw that pit on my property, I may have gotten my Colibris and my Velocitors mixed up....
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Stingers? You mean the CCI .22LR varmint ammo?
no plastic buckshot in a weak tree hugging moment i got em for black bear
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Sad for the girl. Ten to one she probably did the stupidest thing she could think of and, like a lot of people who get injured in a dog fight, got between the dogs and/or tried to grab and separate by the collars. In the middle of a fight the dog doesn't know the difference between another dog and a person, it's in survival kill something mode.
A way to stop it early, and be able to seperate them before it got really nasty without hurting them in the process would be nice.p
Safest and most effective way I've always understood from a few rottie and GSD breeder friends is to wheelbarrow the dogs.
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Sad for the girl. Ten to one she probably did the stupidest thing she could think of and, like a lot of people who get injured in a dog fight, got between the dogs and/or tried to grab and separate by the collars. In the middle of a fight the dog doesn't know the difference between another dog and a person, it's in survival kill something mode.
Safest and most effective way I've always understood from a few rottie and GSD breeder friends is to wheelbarrow the dogs.
We grab tails and drag. Unfortunatly, it works best when you have one person for each tail involved. I've grabbing tail and started dragging and ended up on one side of a monkey in the middle situations many times.
=(
The disturbing part is when you go from the one dragging to the one being dragged. [tinfoil]
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Any dog not socialized properly is a potential threat. I've known Pits as meek as lambs and Chihuahuas as evil as Ol' Hob himself. Responsible owners + socializing the dog = good dog.
Remove either of those and you get - bad dog.
This is not new.
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We grab tails and drag. Unfortunatly, it works best when you have one person for each tail involved. I've grabbing tail and started dragging and ended up on one side of a monkey in the middle situations many times.
=(
The disturbing part is when you go from the one dragging to the one being dragged. [tinfoil]
They practiced grab and lift, either the base of the tail or if the opportunity presents itself the back legs are better, just like a wheelbarrow. That, combined with walking the dog backwards and in an arc or circle or zig zag or anything else that'll cause a shuffle, keeps them busy shuffling their front paws to avoid face planting. Even a large dog isn't going to be pulling you with just his front legs or turning around and biting you, especially when he's busy trying to avoid face planting. Dogs apparently rather dislike face planting.
Doesn't solve the being by yourself part of course, one of those varying degrees of suck situations.
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Any dog not socialized properly is a potential threat. I've known Pits as meek as lambs and Chihuahuas as evil as Ol' Hob himself. Responsible owners + socializing the dog = good dog.
Remove either of those and you get - bad dog.
This is not new.
That's true, but only to an extent.
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They practiced grab and lift, either the base of the tail or if the opportunity presents itself the back legs are better, just like a wheelbarrow. That, combined with walking the dog backwards and in an arc or circle or zig zag or anything else that'll cause a shuffle, keeps them busy shuffling their front paws to avoid face planting. Even a large dog isn't going to be pulling you with just his front legs or turning around and biting you, especially when he's busy trying to avoid face planting. Dogs apparently rather dislike face planting.
Doesn't solve the being by yourself part of course, one of those varying degrees of suck situations.
Yeah, the thing I worry about is disabling the one I've grabbed so much it can't defend it's head. As long as I don't end up in the middle, I'm sort of safe. It's getting them to seperate. A lot of times they'll lock onto each other and then pulling them apart starts doing more damage. That's how Queenie got her ear peeled. Dinah locked on and wouldn't let go, even when I had her by the tail and was slamming the kennel gate on her head.
=|
Dog fights just suck ass. I really don't understand the entertainment value some people find in it.
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Me either. Two animals ripping each other to shreds isn't my idea of quality entertainment.
As counter intuitive as it sounds, it was recommended that when by yourself actually not doing any thing until one dog is dominating the other, and then getting hold of the dog that has gotten the upper hand. Never had to test that theory myself, but the owners based that off the dog that had been dominated would be less likely to continue the fight. And with the lift and back up, the dog is more likely to let go once he has to focus on not face planting.
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How about firecrackers? One of those little 16-packs, or maybe 40's, tossed in the middle ought to do it. Especially indoors.
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water works great for cat fights, I wonder about dog fights?
Smart dogs tend to bite me, like I mentioned earlier I insulted a chi dawg and it gave me hurt for two weeks, about a yr and a half ago I was at a neighbors house ( well, by rural Nevada standards - 23 miles away ) she has a big friendly handsome lab and a high strung border collie... I was petting the lab and I said "labs are much better the collies" and the collie growled - then I said "labs are awesome, and you're not only a border collie, you're a boring collie" and the freaking bastid bit my upper lip!
Another dog in town is a giant pit, huge, it runs up to the fence and barks - scary as heck - but if you stick your hand in the fence it falls over on its back with its paws in the air looking really scared and timid....
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Me either. Two animals ripping each other to shreds isn't my idea of quality entertainment.
As counter intuitive as it sounds, it was recommended that when by yourself actually not doing any thing until one dog is dominating the other, and then getting hold of the dog that has gotten the upper hand. Never had to test that theory myself, but the owners based that off the dog that had been dominated would be less likely to continue the fight. And with the lift and back up, the dog is more likely to let go once he has to focus on not face planting.
It's a delicate matter. One other issue is we would rather they work it out on their own. So we don't step in until the fight is a for sure thing, which usually means it's gone full blown.
Stopping it before it starts means we have to seperate them completly. Which becomes problamatic when you've got over 60 dogs in a kennel and have to play musical kennels. We've got the dogs that never fight, the dogs who have arch nemisis, and the dogs that always fight and keeping up with the inter-canine drama is key to keeping it safe. If you seperate them before they have a chance to work it out, then you're just postponing the ininvetible and usually the resulting fight is a lot worse then the scuffle would have been.
As for firecrackers and water, yeah, no. It might work on some dogs, but it will just escalate it with others.
You know how we keep saying that grabbing collers or necks is going to get you bit because they'll mistake you for who their fighting? They also tend to blame who their fighting for any other crazyness or discomfort they feel and the fighting gets worse.
Sometimes the worse thing you can do is try to seperate them, because unless you can do it quick or you know they are definatly going to fight to the death, any interferance can actually make it worse.
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Wasn't aimed at you there BSL so feel free to calm down.
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What BSL said. Fighting dogs, not just a nip or a squabble which should be left alone for them to sort out, but an actual dog fight that one dog is going to be seriously injured or dead from, are in crazy ass kill everything and let god sort them out berserker mode. Anything that adds to the bad juju in the room- yelling, hysterics, panicking, hitting/kicking/poking with a broom/etc. the dogs, tossing a firecracker or other loud noise, etc. is just as likely to make them go more berserk and feel more of a threat as knock them out of it. Water or something might work on a simple squabble, but is just as likely to turn it into a knock out fight.
There's three ways to deal with a dog fight, imo, assuming we remove shoot the damn thing from the list of possibilities. Stop it before it happens by recognizing it before it happens and either separating them or going all pack leader on them while they can still form rational doggy thoughts. Physically separate the dogs, from behind, and get them away from each other. Or do nothing until the situation makes it possible for you to separate the dogs or it ends by itself, which is unfortunately sometimes the only option if you are by yourself.
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tossing a firecracker...
Point of clarification: I was talking about a whole pack of firecrackers =D
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Point of clarification: I was talking about a whole pack of firecrackers =D
Point of clarification: Same difference :lol:
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I used to loath a lot of toy breeds, particularly Pomarianians. Now, I would own a Pom in a heartbeat. They have really dynamic and clownish personalitys in a very compact form. A good Pom is hard to hate.
My parents have a pom that is an absolute sweetheart. He's friendly, gentle, not at all yippy, and wants nothing more than for you to love him unconditionally. Their other dog, a shih tzu, has trust issues with strangers because she was abused by the previous owners' 3yo (not actually abused, but mainly manhandled). She acts aggressive around strangers, but won't actually bite or harm you. It's all show. If you recognize this, pick her up, and give her hugs and attention, she settles down and accepts you. She's a real sweetheart once she trusts you. Unfortunately, people are afraid of being bit and don't work through that initial display. Having been bit before, I'm not going to let a 15lb dog intimidate me, so I snatched her up the first time she tried this and showed her I wasn't afraid. She's fine with me now.
We have a Havanese. He's a great dog and sturdy for a toy breed. We selected the breed because they weren't bred for hunting (I love terriers, but know from having them previously that they don't do well with small grabby children) or other work. They have always been bred as lapdogs. However, they're quite sturdy for a toy breed and do well with children. Ours is a 13lb dog who plays like a 30lb dog. The only problem we have with ours is that he's VERY food motivated. He'll take food from the kids if they aren't careful. However, he's not aggressive about food. We can reach right into his bowl while he's eating and he doesn't care.
As for other breeds, I'm wary of pits, because I still carry scars all over my head after being attacked by a pit/boxer mix. That was 31 years ago and the ones on my face are visible (one bisecting my forehead and another just over my eye, inside my eye socket), as are the ones on the rest of my head when I get a short haircut.
If I had space, I'd love a mountain cur. My uncle has owned and bred them at various times for squirrel hunting. I've always enjoyed their personality. I've read they're good protective dogs around their family, but accepting of new people once "vetted" by their owners. Unfortunately, they are a bit large for a townhouse (40+ lbs based on the ones my uncle has owned).
Chris
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It might just be shitz tzu's. We have one family that boards their three shitz tzu's and they are all former show dogs and they all have attitude. They can be very cute and playful, but you have to proove yourself before they'll let you near.
We don't get many Havanese at the kennel. I've seen a couple and they've been very nice. Louise very much admires the breed.
I think one of the major issue with toy breeds is the idiot factor, but a slightly diffrent idiot factor then other dogs. You have to let them be dogs, and way too many owners treat them like little babies or stuffed animals, but don't do stuff like teach them to walk on leashes or even go outside. We have a lot of toys that don't even go outside to potty. They are trained (usually poorly) to use WeeWee pads.
They should be small, affectionate DOGS, not obnoxious, nasty, hyper, helpless little things.
We get a lot of really stupid, ugly bicions, which is grates on my nerves, because the nice pretty ones arn't really half bad. The good ones are fluffy, sweet armfuls of love and can be quite playful and bright. It's not a breed I'd personally really want, but not bad. You just don't see many due to bad, puppymill breeding and idiot owners. It's really sad.
I would like some toys, particularly affinipinchers, lowchens and pappions, as well as poms at some point, but it's definatly going to involve a serious study of avalible breeders before I'd touch one.
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I would like some toys, particularly affinipinchers, lowchens and pappions, as well as poms at some point, but it's definatly going to involve a serious study of avalible breeders before I'd touch one.
Point of fact:
Even if a papillon dog wanders up to you in August about ready for heat stroke, you contain it and give it water, then put up signs in the neighborhood advertising you found it, the owners still don't appreciate it when you mis-identify it as a "long haired chihuahua" on your home-printed signs.
FTR, I liked the dog a whole lot than its PITA owners. Next time, no signs, just find a nice old lady who needs a friendly companion...
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Point of fact:
Even if a papillon dog wanders up to you in August about ready for heat stroke, you contain it and give it water, then put up signs in the neighborhood advertising you found it, the owners still don't appreciate it when you mis-identify it as a "long haired chihuahua" on your home-printed signs.
FTR, I liked the dog a whole lot than its PITA owners. Next time, no signs, just find a nice old lady who needs a friendly companion...
*snicker*
Welcome to my world.... >:D
It's not just papillon owners. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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I think one of the major issue with toy breeds is the idiot factor, but a slightly diffrent idiot factor then other dogs. You have to let them be dogs, and way too many owners treat them like little babies or stuffed animals, but don't do stuff like teach them to walk on leashes or even go outside. We have a lot of toys that don't even go outside to potty.
We weren't ever planning to get a "toy" dog and were not planning on keeping the Chewawa-mix that showed up on our land a few years ago.
But then after she recovered from the initial hunger and exposure, we let her out to run with our golden retriever, and saw how she kept up with him even on her tiny legs. She was very "spunky" and so she became "Spunky" :lol:
She even used to go on horseback rides with me, but I must have taken her too far on too hot a day one time because she won't go with me anymore. You should have seen her chasing an 1800 lb Hereford bull =D
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My parents have a pom...
At first glance, I thought that m was an "rn." Gross.
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We weren't ever planning to get a "toy" dog and were not planning on keeping the Chewawa-mix that showed up on our land a few years ago.
But then after she recovered from the initial hunger and exposure, we let her out to run with our golden retriever, and saw how she kept up with him even on her tiny legs. She was very "spunky" and so she became "Spunky" :lol:
She even used to go on horseback rides with me, but I must have taken her too far on too hot a day one time because she won't go with me anymore. You should have seen her chasing an 1800 lb Hereford bull =D
My mistake was letting the fie hold the durn thing
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You should have seen her chasing an 1800 lb Hereford bull grin
the bull is emotionally scarred for life
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You should have seen her chasing an 1800 lb Hereford bull grin
the bull is emotionally scarred for life
They had to get a new bull =D
They have a black one (Angus?) now.
I used to call the other one "Harry Ford" ;)
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Responsible owners + socializing the dog = good dog.
<groan, I can't believe I'm typing this> It takes a village...
A few nights ago, I was delivering a load in a small industrial complex. I approached a worker in a neighboring business for information only to find myself challenged by a two year old Dobie. Calmness on both my part and the dog's owner's allowed me to make a new friend (the dog spent a lot of time sniffing the important parts and may well recognize me next time we meet, the owner didn't, probably won't. ;)) (When I was about eight, a local woman who exercised two leashed Dobies by sitting on the tailgate of a station wagon driven by her husband was killed when the dogs jumped into the back of the car and savaged her. I knew and liked the people and the dogs and had a hard time with Dobies for some years afterward.) Socializing a pooch cannot be done by the owner alone, strangers must participate.