Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: gunsmith on January 18, 2020, 04:06:14 AM
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so i was thinking .... in The Lords Prayer, it says "as we forgive those who trespass against us" - isn't hat really asking
for God to forgive us only as much as we forgive others?
That's not a good idea for me, I do not forgive quite a few people ( I know I should, but its asking too much right now )
I feel like I should be asking God to forgive me even tho I have a hard time forgiving others, not asking for exactly the same forgiveness I have for
certain dbags I have known.
I have other questions too - "forgive them for they know not what they do" - wouldn't that mean that the people I need to forgive are already forgiven by a much higher authority than I?
more questions later
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I suppose it depends on your school of thought. Some may say that God has already forgiven people's sins, others would say that God is offering forgiveness, and that a sinner has to ask for it. My dad, the most religious person I know, would say that God will forgive any sin, as long as the person asking for it is genuinely remorseful.
You can't know another person's state of mind, so I would say forgive everybody as if they have or they will ask God for the same. Having dealt with people in my life who have done wrong by me, sometimes something particularly egregious, I know how difficult this can be. However, doing so anyway makes me feel at peace.
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We will all give account of ourselves.
"Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" is putting in context, reframing the concept of forgiveness. Remember they sacrificed animals to "appease" God. Jesus is calling for s different type of sacrifice.
It's also an encouragement to free yourself from bitterness, from the "tit for tat" pettiness of holding grudges.
It's a goal, a transcendent ideal.
If the best you achieve is escaping from the rumination that allows a root of bitterness to consume you you're still better off.
If there is no societal recourse against those who've wronged you remember, "Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord".
Everyone will give account of themselves.
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We will all give account of ourselves.
"Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" is putting in context, reframing the concept of forgiveness. Remember they sacrificed animals to "appease" God. Jesus is calling for s different type of sacrifice.
It's also an encouragement to free yourself from bitterness, from the "tit for tat" pettiness of holding grudges.
It's a goal, a transcendent ideal.
If the best you achieve is escaping from the rumination that allows a root of bitterness to consume you you're still better off.
If there is no societal recourse against those who've wronged you remember, "Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord".
Everyone will give account of themselves.
There is always more to it, but I always felt this is the simplest answer. Anger, hatred, bitterness, and the arrogance that goes along with it can really screw up your thinking and lead you into actions you will regret not just against them, but against others around you as well. IMO, you forgive because that is the best thing to do for you and will likely help you make better decisions going forward. Like God's Grace, it is not dependent on the character or actions of the person being forgiven.
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I would also add that forgiveness doesn't necessarily mean you welcome them back into your life. You might choose to never associate with them again. However, make that decision when you are not angry and with a clear head.
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Old joke:
Q : You meet Gunsmith and Jesus walking down the street together. Who do you say "hello" to first?
???
A: Gunsmith. Because Jesus would forgive you. >:D :rofl: ok it's not that funny .... but it is a little funny. [tinfoil]
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so i was thinking .... in The Lords Prayer, it says "as we forgive those who trespass against us" - isn't hat really asking
for God to forgive us only as much as we forgive others?
Yes ... and no.
IMHO, that's saying that God forgives us when we slip up, and it's telling us that God expects us to do the same when someone "trespasses" against us.
I have other questions too - "forgive them for they know not what they do" - wouldn't that mean that the people I need to forgive are already forgiven by a much higher authority than I?
Yes. But the fact that God forgives them doesn't help you. What affects your relationship with God is what's in your heart.
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It means that, because God is willing to forgive us, and take the physical punishment for what we've done wrong, we're left without excuse if we fail to forgive.
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so i was thinking .... in The Lords Prayer, it says "as we forgive those who trespass against us" - isn't that really asking
for God to forgive us only as much as we forgive others?
Yes. However since God is gracious he forgives you anyway because Jesus already paid the price for your sin. (1 John 1:9) If he had not, you would be doomed. But also it's a reminder and encouragement; you who have been forgiven much, go and do likewise.
That's my 2 cents. :)
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Some great answers, I try not to ask God for things - I once prayed to God about a co-worker I couldn't stand ( always made sexual jokes about children, I had to restrain my self from attacking him ) so I prayed, asked God to improve the situation - I meant get rid of the guy but I got fired the next day! ;/
so I know intellectually I'm supposed to forgive some people, but i can't. I can go long periods of time not thinking about some people but sometimes things just pop back up inexplicably .
it causes me concern, I know that being baptized again, after my first infant baptism, that adult baptism in the evangelical church i was in, seems to conform with what I read in the Bible - that my sins are forgiven - however I do worry that I'm only forgiven with the same mercy I feel for some real jerks.
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Some great answers, I try not to ask God for things - I once prayed to God about a co-worker I couldn't stand ( always made sexual jokes about children, I had to restrain my self from attacking him ) so I prayed, asked God to improve the situation - I meant get rid of the guy but I got fired the next day! ;/
so I know intellectually I'm supposed to forgive some people, but i can't. I can go long periods of time not thinking about some people but sometimes things just pop back up inexplicably .
it causes me concern, I know that being baptized again, after my first infant baptism, that adult baptism in the evangelical church i was in, seems to conform with what I read in the Bible - that my sins are forgiven - however I do worry that I'm only forgiven with the same mercy I feel for some real jerks.
It's a matter of trusting the judgement, grace and love that God has for you. Jesus said believe and follow him and your sin is forgiven, salvation is yours.
Regarding your "enemy's", it's a matter of trusting that justice will win in the end, believing God in infinite knowledge has a better understanding of justice (and mercy) than us in our mortal limitations.
Like the apostle Thomas said to Jesus, Lord I believe, help thou my unbelief.
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Some great answers, I try not to ask God for things - I once prayed to God about a co-worker I couldn't stand ( always made sexual jokes about children, I had to restrain my self from attacking him ) so I prayed, asked God to improve the situation - I meant get rid of the guy but I got fired the next day! ;/
I was taught many years ago that we should never pray for a specific outcome. God knows best. When we pray, we should ask for God to do what's best for us, with no preconceptions as to what that might be.
so I know intellectually I'm supposed to forgive some people, but i can't. I can go long periods of time not thinking about some people but sometimes things just pop back up inexplicably .
it causes me concern, I know that being baptized again, after my first infant baptism, that adult baptism in the evangelical church i was in, seems to conform with what I read in the Bible - that my sins are forgiven - however I do worry that I'm only forgiven with the same mercy I feel for some real jerks.
God's love is unconditional. So is His forgiveness.
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Regarding your "enemy's", it's a matter of trusting that justice will win in the end, believing God in infinite knowledge has a better understanding of justice (and mercy) than us in our mortal limitations.
We're commanded to love our enemies. Nobody said we have to like them.
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We're commanded to love our enemies. Nobody said we have to like them.
Indeed, still a tough pill to swallow.
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Jesus also mentioned that in Matthew 18, starting in verse 21. I think the parable suggests that for us to forgive others, even if they've done the most horrible things to us, is very small compared to God's forgiveness toward us.
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Some great answers, I try not to ask God for things - I once prayed to God about a co-worker I couldn't stand ( always made sexual jokes about children, I had to restrain my self from attacking him ) so I prayed, asked God to improve the situation - I meant get rid of the guy but I got fired the next day! ;/
so I know intellectually I'm supposed to forgive some people, but i can't. I can go long periods of time not thinking about some people but sometimes things just pop back up inexplicably .
it causes me concern, I know that being baptized again, after my first infant baptism, that adult baptism in the evangelical church i was in, seems to conform with what I read in the Bible - that my sins are forgiven - however I do worry that I'm only forgiven with the same mercy I feel for some real jerks.
When you pray for someone who has wronged you or someone whom you know is doing wrong you shouldn’t pray for there demise. Vengeance is the Lords. You should pray for them that the Holy Spirit would change them. That they they become believers and be saved. And pray for God to give you the strength to forgive.
Be careful of being judgmental. Christ gave us a lesson on that. The parable of the tax collector and the Pharisee.
It’s an easy self righteous road to go down. In God’s eyes a sin is a sin. All sin condemns. All sin has been forgiven through Christ. The only unforgivable sin is rejecting Christ.
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Jesus also mentioned that in Matthew 18, starting in verse 21. I think the parable suggests that for us to forgive others, even if they've done the most horrible things to us, is very small compared to God's forgiveness toward us.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZokLQNfIo-4 :) (it was not real easy to find this version)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZokLQNfIo-4 :) (it was not real easy to find this version)
thanks!!!! I will check it out tonight
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The company I worked for hired a CEO. A large, boisterous man who at first take looked like a great leader. He turned out to be an ahole and engineered all sorts of bad things for our company, including screwing up our agent pay plan which over time harmed the company in all sorts of ways. I came to dislike the man intensely to the point that I wished ill upon him. After a bit, I came to recognize that my feelings were wrong, so I actually began to pray for him. The gist of my prayer was that he'd come to recognize what an ahole and destructive force he was, repent, find the Lord and as a result repair the damage he'd done and help make our company what a good thing it was before he came along.
About a year later he was arrested and sent to prison when it was discovered that in addition to being an ahole and destructive force, he conspired with a couple other senior executives and were stealing and diverting company funds to themselves. One of his co-conspirators, when being led out of the building by security, remarked "Will this affect my pension?"
The moral of the story is that when you pray for aholes to repent, they do generally get their just deserts.
Personally I always like Proverbs 25:21-22, repeated in Romans 12:20. In addition there are many verses in the OT and NT that speak of how you are to react to those who do ill to you. You will be surprised how better you feel when you find yourself praying for those who are less than nice to you. It makes you a much better person for it, and it might just make the ahole a better person too.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZokLQNfIo-4 :) (it was not real easy to find this version)
:laugh: The chapter-and-verse reference in that song cracks me up every time, especially the part about the "special warning."
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:laugh: The chapter-and-verse reference in that song cracks me up every time, especially the part about the "special warning."
I love it, saving it to faves
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Did a brief stint in a Bible college as a young man.
Even though it was here up north it was 75% southerners attending.
Bluegrass gospel music is awesome, that brings back some fond memories