Author Topic: Trump Recommends Wiping Out Puerto Rico's Debt  (Read 2323 times)

Ben

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Trump Recommends Wiping Out Puerto Rico's Debt
« on: October 04, 2017, 10:29:21 AM »
I suppose this is to be taken as a "feel good" story, but I'm not sure if I take it that way. PR got into their financial woes all on their own and through gov incompetence and greed.

While I understand that whether you wipe out their debt or just throw money at them in disaster response, you're still giving them money. However, wiping out the debt looks like, rather than affecting the entire US tax base, that it will mostly affect many ordinary people that have balanced mutual funds (i.e., that contain bonds) in their retirement accounts. I'm actually trying to find out this morning if I have any PR related bonds in my mutual funds. Many are down 10% already on the news.

https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2017/10/04/if-you-didnt-notice-yesterday-the-msm-narrative-on-trump-and-puerto-rico-is-collapsing/
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K Frame

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Re: Trump Recommends Wiping Out Puerto Rico's Debt
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2017, 11:56:44 AM »
Well, that won't get the left to love him, but it may just get them liking him a little bit...
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KD5NRH

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Re: Trump Recommends Wiping Out Puerto Rico's Debt
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2017, 12:46:01 PM »
What about just signing the whole island over to the Democrat Party?

Then they can handle it any way they want to, and it's no longer the rest of the country's problem.

Ben

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Re: Trump Recommends Wiping Out Puerto Rico's Debt
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2017, 01:47:34 PM »
It appears wiping out PR's debt is not good enough for Dems. Also note the San Juan mayor's new t-shirt. Also I was unaware of her circle of friends.

https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2017/10/04/trump-yesterday-hey-maybe-well-wipe-out-all-of-puerto-ricos-debt-dems-today-not-good-enough/
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Nick1911

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Re: Trump Recommends Wiping Out Puerto Rico's Debt
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2017, 02:53:50 PM »
Wipe out their debt as a parting gift, and cut them loose.

slingshot

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Re: Trump Recommends Wiping Out Puerto Rico's Debt
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2017, 11:14:28 PM »
Well, that won't get the left to love him, but it may just get them liking him a little bit...
Nothing Trump can do will make the left love him.  They find fault in anything he does.....
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French G.

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Re: Trump Recommends Wiping Out Puerto Rico's Debt
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2017, 11:56:37 AM »
Practically it was gonna happen anyway, pre hurricane chances of repayment were not a good Vegas bet. Now it approaches zero. So, get out in front of reality and make it a goodwill gesture. Only problem is precedent.
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Trump Recommends Wiping Out Puerto Rico's Debt
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2017, 12:17:05 PM »
It appears wiping out PR's debt is not good enough for Dems. Also note the San Juan mayor's new t-shirt. Also I was unaware of her circle of friends.

https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2017/10/04/trump-yesterday-hey-maybe-well-wipe-out-all-of-puerto-ricos-debt-dems-today-not-good-enough/

Nothing is ever good enough for the left. Look at the California model on debt and nanny state laws for an example.
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Firethorn

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Re: Trump Recommends Wiping Out Puerto Rico's Debt
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2017, 05:33:58 AM »
Practically it was gonna happen anyway, pre hurricane chances of repayment were not a good Vegas bet. Now it approaches zero. So, get out in front of reality and make it a goodwill gesture. Only problem is precedent.

I know that defaulting on the debt is going to be bad for everyone who holds said debt, but maybe it'll signal that government debt isn't quite as safe as we thought it to be.  PR would have a hard time getting into even more debt if nobody is willing to lend.

And, from what I understand, most of PR's problems comes from the feds dicking with them.  A crazy level of inability to default on debt - they have to pay their debt before they fund schools and police, for example.  Short of federal legislation they can't default.  This made them "look" good and allowed the previous administrators to go crazy with the debt, knowing that it would be handed off to the next generation.

Then they imposed, in an area with low cost of living and equally low wages, the federal minimum wage.  As they did that, they removed some tax benefits that encouraged companies to outsource to PR rather than China and such.

So yeah, maybe wipe out the debt.  While you're at it, get rid of the federal minimum wage there, and maybe look at restoring those tax benefits to companies.  Hell, reducing the corporate tax rate for everybody might be enough.

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Trump Recommends Wiping Out Puerto Rico's Debt
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2017, 05:44:13 AM »
PR is in a position to be a world  class "tropical *expletive deleted*ing paradise".
The tourist potential is out of sight.
Instead, it is liberal/socialist controlled borderline 3rd world shithole only a baby step or two away from the workers paradise that is Venezuela.
Another fine example of  democrat controlled failure.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

230RN

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Re: Trump Recommends Wiping Out Puerto Rico's Debt
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2017, 05:55:13 AM »
Every time I see "West Side Story" I laugh like hell at this song.

http://www.westsidestory.com/site/level2/lyrics/america_movie.html

Background, dance sequence, and the song itself, NSFW (racial slurs):

https://youtu.be/Qy6wo2wpT2k

Hey, it was a time when reality wasn't poisoned by the Political Correctness toxin.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 06:24:14 AM by 230RN »
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Trump Recommends Wiping Out Puerto Rico's Debt
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2017, 06:04:44 AM »

So yeah, maybe wipe out the debt.  While you're at it, get rid of the federal minimum wage there, and maybe look at restoring those tax benefits to companies.  Hell, reducing the corporate tax rate for everybody might be enough.

Wipe out the debt, then cut Puerto Rico loose. Don't make it a state -- just sever the ties that bind, and let it be its own country. Those citizensa who are already American citizens can remain so, but their offspring don't get to be Americans unless they're bornin in the United States.
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Fly320s

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Re: Trump Recommends Wiping Out Puerto Rico's Debt
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2017, 08:43:54 AM »
Those citizens who are already American citizens can remain so, but their offspring don't get to be Americans unless they're bornin in the United States.

The children still get citizenship. 
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MechAg94

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Re: Trump Recommends Wiping Out Puerto Rico's Debt
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2017, 10:07:17 AM »
I know that defaulting on the debt is going to be bad for everyone who holds said debt, but maybe it'll signal that government debt isn't quite as safe as we thought it to be.  PR would have a hard time getting into even more debt if nobody is willing to lend.

And, from what I understand, most of PR's problems comes from the feds dicking with them.  A crazy level of inability to default on debt - they have to pay their debt before they fund schools and police, for example.  Short of federal legislation they can't default.  This made them "look" good and allowed the previous administrators to go crazy with the debt, knowing that it would be handed off to the next generation.

Then they imposed, in an area with low cost of living and equally low wages, the federal minimum wage.  As they did that, they removed some tax benefits that encouraged companies to outsource to PR rather than China and such.

So yeah, maybe wipe out the debt.  While you're at it, get rid of the federal minimum wage there, and maybe look at restoring those tax benefits to companies.  Hell, reducing the corporate tax rate for everybody might be enough.
I saw an article recently about the Jones Act (I think that was the name) that forces shipping headed to PR to go to a Continental US port first.  I would agree with you that there are likely meddling regulations that ought to be repealed.  I don't think that accounts for all their problems though.
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Ben

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Re: Trump Recommends Wiping Out Puerto Rico's Debt
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2017, 10:24:02 AM »
I saw an article recently about the Jones Act (I think that was the name) that forces shipping headed to PR to go to a Continental US port first.  I would agree with you that there are likely meddling regulations that ought to be repealed.  I don't think that accounts for all their problems though.

I'll also agree that in PR, as in all of the US and its territories, there is onerous gov regulation that should be revised or eliminated. However, I also agree with Mech, based on the first hand accounts I hear myself, that the PR regional and local governments are simply whack, and there is something of a Central American / Third World culture in the population with a lot of "good enough*", "It's too much trouble", "Who needs to work when the gov pays me to do nothing?", and "As a gov bureaucrat, it's expected that I skim money and use it for stuff like t-shirts".


*I've seen that myself in Cozumel in Mexico, and even Belize, which is supposed to be one of the more "first world-ish" countries in Central America. In the multiple times I'd been to those places, even when at higher end resorts, there wasn't a day that electricity didn't go out somewhere, or that there wouldn't be a hotel room with no hot water. Stuff breaks and stays broke for who knows how long.

It's not all related to having money - it's also related to just not caring and the attitude that, "the hot water is out, but hey, there's still water." It's that attitude that helped degrade PR's infrastructure to a point where when the big hurricane came, it was like the piggy in the straw house. Refer to Texas for the piggy in the brick house.
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230RN

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Re: Trump Recommends Wiping Out Puerto Rico's Debt
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2017, 01:45:09 PM »
I don't know, but US$73 billion isn't that much in terms of the costs of administering a probably pointless effort to get Puerto Rico on a more responsible financial track.  And just writing it off would expose the extent to which the locals are just plain stupid.

I wasn't aware of some of the other "dicking around" by the U.S. goobermink on this protectorate.  I wonder how much of that goes on with others... however, "protectorate" seems to be a somewhat tenuous term:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectorate#Contemporary_usage_by_the_United_States

Anyhow, just "writing off" that debt, in a business sense, might be an ultimately profitable thing, and we could probably "un-dickify" some of our present  relationships with them, and add some more which would encourage "un-stupidity" in some of the population.

Yeah, I know.  Some would call that "statism."  I think maybe "paternalism" would be a better term --if you include the possibility of occasional trips to the woodshed.  I mean like, you know... "You live under my roof, you live under my rules."

Terry
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Scout26

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Re: Trump Recommends Wiping Out Puerto Rico's Debt
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2017, 03:00:24 PM »
Not only that, but perhaps it would have a ripple effect of forcing rating agencies and the markets to to truly judge the ability of various .gov entities to repay on their bonds.  The current view is that as long as they can pay the interest, they can perpetually roll the principal into new bonds and sell new debt/bonds to pay for new "stuff", with the underlying wink and nudge that eventually inflation will be so high that they can then pay-off the debts.

It's pretty much the housing bubble writ large.  Much like the Eurozone crisis, which is due to flare up again, but Greece bought their way out of it by opening it's border to immigrants, who then proceeded to head to the wealthier Eurozone countries.  A large cash infusion from Germany/France made them stop allowing them in.
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for the motherland.

Fly320s

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Re: Trump Recommends Wiping Out Puerto Rico's Debt
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2017, 03:09:30 PM »
Not only that, but perhaps it would have a ripple effect of forcing rating agencies and the markets to to truly judge the ability of various .gov entities to repay on their bonds.

Is it 5 O'clock already?  Or do you live in a legal marijuana state?

You really think rating agencies and banks will give up their biggest, easiest, safest cash cows?
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Scout26

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Re: Trump Recommends Wiping Out Puerto Rico's Debt
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2017, 03:31:27 PM »
When no one wants to buy them, because PR, it may (notice I said, "May") force the issue.   Hell, Chicago's and Illinois' Bonds are at or below junk status.  If the feds can send that one guy (i disremember his name) for being the Junk Bond king, I would love, love, love, LOVE to see a whole bunch of Illinois Pol's being frog-marched into courts for being Junk-Bond Emporers.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 10:46:41 PM by Amy Schumer »
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

230RN

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Re: Trump Recommends Wiping Out Puerto Rico's Debt
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2017, 07:37:40 PM »
Hmmm.  Puerto Pobreza

Not only that, but perhaps it would have a ripple effect of forcing rating agencies and the markets to truly judge the ability of various .gov entities to repay on their bonds.  The current view is that as long as they can pay the interest, they can perpetually roll the principal into new bonds and sell new debt/bonds to pay for new "stuff", with the underlying wink and nudge that eventually inflation will be so high that they can then pay-off the debts.

...


Yes, yes, that.  And individual (albeit indirect) investors (like Ben) took their chances and lost.  As opposed to the innocent non-investors who get dinged by the general effects of inflation.  It sounds like "poverty redistribution" to me.  As opposed to "wealth redistribution." :)

And isn't that the same story with the U.S.' National Debt?  Right now, I guess it's too dangerous to not keep raising that limit unto infinity --that is, to keep "rolling it over."  Right here in River City.

Indeed, it's already been 5 o'clock for too long.

Terry, 230RN
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 08:05:31 PM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

Ben

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Re: Trump Recommends Wiping Out Puerto Rico's Debt
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2017, 07:45:14 PM »
Yes, yes, that.  And individual (albeit indirect) investors (like Ben) took their chances and lost.  

Actually I didn't invest in PR. That doesn't mean mutual funds I have either through Vanguard or fed.gov (TSP) didn't do so though. Mutual fund holders have no control over changes in the fund, and mutual funds buy and sell components all the time. They can only leave it if they find it invests in stuff they don't like. AFAIK, my Vanguard stuff doesn't have any ties to PR. Don't know on the TSP.
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230RN

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Re: Trump Recommends Wiping Out Puerto Rico's Debt
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2017, 08:04:39 PM »
"albeit indirect"

Reference to Ben struck.

"poverty redistribution" reiterated herein.

Veritas stet.

"Puerto Pobreza" repeated herein just for the friggin' grins. :D

Terry, 230RN
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.