The sun indeed

[LAK]

.... did not set on the Empire.

And now you know where all your social security funds have been siphoned off to all these years.

When reading this, keep Article 6 of the U.S. Constitution in mind ....

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http://www.legislation.gov.uk/sr/sr1997/Nisr_19970339_en_1.htm

Statutory Rule 1997 No. 339
The Social Security (United States of America) Order (Northern Ireland) 1997
© Crown Copyright 1997

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STATUTORY RULES OF NORTHERN IRELAND
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1997 No. 339

SOCIAL SECURITY

The Social Security (United States of America) Order (Northern Ireland) 1997

Made  22nd July 1997  
Coming into operation  1st September 1997  



In exercise of the powers conferred on me by section 155(1) and (2) of the Social Security Administration (Northern Ireland) Act 1992[1] and of all other powers enabling me in that behalf, I hereby make the following Order:

Citation, commencement and interpretation
    1.(1)  This Order may be cited as the Social Security (United States of America) Order (Northern Ireland) 1997 and shall come into operation on 1st September 1997.

    (2)  In this Order
 (a) "the Agreement" means the Agreement on Social Security between the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Government of the United States of America;
 (b) "the Administrative Agreement" means the Administrative Agreement for the implementation of the Agreement,
which were signed at London on behalf of those Governments[2] on the 13th February 1984.

Modification of the Social Security Contributions and Benefits (Northern Ireland) Act and the Social Security Administration (Northern Ireland) Act and amendment of the Social Security (United States of America) Order
    2.    The Social Security Contributions and Benefits (Northern Ireland) Act 1992[3] and the Social Security Administration (Northern Ireland) Act 1992 shall be modified and the Social Security (United States of America) Order (Northern Ireland) 1984[4] ("the principal Order") shall be amended so as to give effect to the Agreement, set out in Schedule 1 to the principal Order, as modified by the Supplementary Agreement set out in Schedule 1 to this Order and to the Administrative Agreement, set out in Schedule 2 to the principal Order, as modified by the Supplementary Administrative Agreement[5] set out in Schedule 2 to this Order, so far as the same relate to Northern Ireland.
Amendment of Order
    3.    In the Schedule to the Social Security (Reciprocal Agreements) Order (Northern Ireland) 1988[6] and in Schedules 2 and 3 to the Social Security (Reciprocal Agreements) Order (Northern Ireland) 1995[7] the entry relating to the Social Security (United States of America) Order (Northern Ireland) 1984 shall be omitted.


Marjorie Mowlam

One of Her Majesty's Principal Secretaries of State

Dated this 22nd day of July 1997.







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Notes:


[1] 1992 c. 8 back

[2] Cmnd. 9443 back

[3] 1992 c. 7 back

[4] S.R. 1984 No. 449 back

[5] Cm 3374, publishes both the Supplementary Agreement and the Supplementary Administrative Agreement back

[6] S.R. 1988 No. 120 back

[7] S.R. 1995 No. 110 back
   
Explanatory Note
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[Azrael256]

Um...  an obscure order regarding social security in two countries with no indication as to its antecedents and the supremacy clause?

I can see where there's room for conspiracy theory here, but since the referenced document from 1984 doesn't seem to be available, this could easily be something as simple as who pays the postage for a trans-atlantic claim rejection letter.

[Iain]

I looked briefly, it seems some people think that this act means that Britain claims territory rights over the United States.

In fact it seems to be a reciprocal Social Security agreement.

Before the agreement, employees, employers and self-employed persons could, under certain circumstances, be required to pay Social Security taxes to both the United States and the United Kingdom for the same work.

Under the agreement, if you work as an employee in the United States, you normally will be covered by the United States, and you and your employer will pay Social Security taxes only to the United States.  If you work as an employee in the United Kingdom, you normally will be covered by the United Kingdom, and you and your employer pay Social Security taxes only to the United Kingdom.

On the other hand, if your employer sends you from one country to work for that employer or an affiliate in the other country for five years or less, you will continue to be covered by your home country and you will be exempt from coverage in the other country. For example, if a U.S. company sends an employee to work for that employer or an affiliate in the United Kingdom for no more than five years, the employer and the employee will continue to pay only U.S. Social Security taxes and will not have to pay in the United Kingdom.

- http://www.ssa.gov/international/Agreement_Pamphlets/uk.html

[LAK]

I do not see the word "territory" anywhere in this subject matter. But funding and taxation do come to mind, as to have been "reciprocal" all these years to the tune of billions of dollars would require something just a little more than a diplomatic handshake.

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[Iain]

Wasn't necessarily referring to you LAK. When I was searching for info about this I came across this gem:

http://www.civil-liberties.com/books/thequeen.htm

Well folks, I don't have to look any further for proof positive, concerning our subjection to England and what ever monarch is sitting. Of course I will continue looking, but will you believe the following document obtained from the Queen's own web site. I was told about the possible existence of this by the Informer, he was told by someone else. Yep, it's there in black and white, read "Schedule 1, Article 14, sections 15, 16 and 17. There are other revealing parts, but in the above sections the United States is declared to be a territory of Great Britain and that we are subject to the Queen. As always I do not take things out of context, but read the whole thing so you will have no doubt.

James

If you look at the link you'll see that what follows is the exact same text as you posted above. So there's my reason for saying that some seem to think that this is evidence of Crown claims over US territory. All I can figure out that he means is this:

Taken from Schedule 1 Article 14 section 16

16. Notwithstanding any other provision of this Article, a person in the territory of the United States who is subject to the laws on coverage of the United Kingdom...

(a) be treated as if he were in the territory of the United Kingdom

And he says he doesn't take things out of context (which I had to do to make it even begin to fit his claims) so my best guess is the author of that page doesn't even begin to understand the context.

Back to LAK - it seems that basically what this agreement does is sort out who you pay your social security contributions to so that you don't end up paying twice. Could be wrong there, but what is the problem?

[LAK]

On face value, based on the content of what is available, there is apparently some manner of co-mingled funding. Because the content basically refers to the subject matter as encompassing the social security program of the United States and that of the Crown effectively as one.

The seeming unavailability on the web of other documents is distinctly odd; run various British gov topics on Google, Lycos etc and one usually has access to hundreds if not thousands of documents and related info often going back to the beginnings of matters many decades ago. Firearms legislation in the UK is a good example.

I did find this:

http://www.ssa.gov/international/Agreement_Texts/uk.html

But it says nothing about initial and legislative debate, or funding - whether the money for a British subject living in the U.S. simply comes out of our funds, and visa versa, or do we get reimbursed etc. This is the meat of the issue. If it simply means that British social security payments to individuals can be paid out through our social security administration - after being tranferred from the UK fund account - that is one thing. If the funds are pooled and manipulated in other ways that is another matter altogether.

Our social security system of contributions and system and conditions of payout are an outrage to begin with that needs abolishing completely. Mixing it up with a socialist state like the UK on any level of social security or tax revenue, or any other monies from our public purse is out of the question as far as I am concerned.

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