Author Topic: Guys, girls, and gays  (Read 5672 times)

Monkeyleg

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« on: September 15, 2006, 10:58:18 PM »
I'm not here to debate any kind of religious or moral values. Just to make an observation.

Back in 1970 or so, my now-wife and I stopped dating each other, and saw other people.

She quickly became friends with two gay guys in her senior class.

While she was in the process of becoming best friends with Doug and Gary, I had met a young woman who was at the time majoring in acting at the university.

And all of her male friends in her classes were mostly gay.

Now, Milwaukee has pretty much always had a reputation as a hick city, with nowhere near the sophistication of a Chicago, or even a Minneapolis. It's a reputation that's been well-earned.

So, it shouldn't surprise anyone that the disco nightclub in the early 1970's was The Factory, a gay bar just south of the Milwaukee downtown area.

And, given all of the above, it shouldn't surprise anyone that I spent a lot of time sitting at the bar in gay nightclubs, while my girlfriends were out dancing with gay guys.

I can't dance. The last time I tried, I sprained my ankle.

Whatever.

I now live in an area that I can best describe as city/suburb, and heavily liberal/Democrat. And very much homophobic.

The last time I talked about gay bars with my neighbor (Mark), he visibly shuddered. I mean, he actually shook like a dog coming in after a long walk in the rain.

It's not my style to get into somebody's face. Instead, I said to my neighbor, "Mark, every guy wonders if he might have some gay tendencies. Here's how to check it out: go to a gay bar, sit at the bar, and wait for some really good-looking guys to come up and hit on you. If you feel something moving in your pants, you may not be 100% hetero. Got it?"

Mark hasn't talked to me much since then.

My wife still goes to the gay bars with her gay friends and gay relatives a few times a year. And I feel safer knowing that she's with some guys, rather than out with girlfriends. Much less threat to our marriage, and maybe a little more protection for her from the bad guys. (OK, unless they're members of Pink Pistols, maybe not that much more protection).

I'm going somewhere with all this, but it's a difficult question to frame.

Why is it that women like my wife, who will unashamedly call herself a "fag hag," are accepted within the gay male culture?

By contrast, a couple of our friends are lesbians (or, as my wife and I have now come to term them, "Lebanese girls").

I've been in lesbian bars many times, and every time I was made to feel like David Duke touring the Cabrini Green projects in Chicago. I was surprised that I didn't get knifed.

I don't understand the split between gay males and lesbians, nor the acceptance of "fag hags" like my wife by gay males. It just doesn't make sense.

I also don't understand why the gay rights movement is allowing the "freaks" to lead the parade.

My wife has become very close to her gay uncle, and over the years he's become a close friend of mine. He's been active in the gay rights movement for years and years.

And, everytime there's going to be a Gay Rights parade scheduled, I tell him the same thing: "Howie, don't put the heavy-leather, S&M crowd at the front of the parade. It's where the news cameras are going to go."

I might as well be talking to a potato, because the guys in all weird manner of leather harnesses and other inexplicable gear are at the very front of the parade.

And that's what gets broadcast on TV. Just like the camouflaged guys with the "Nuke 'em all now, and let God sort it out" hats get the focus of the TV cameras at any gun event.

This has been another of my long, rambling posts. So let me summarize by asking: a). why do gay males accept hetero females into their culture? b) why are some, if not most, hetero guys afraid to confront their own sexuality? c) why are "Lebanese women" hostile toward seemingly everyone? d) why have the leaders of the gay rights movement not learned to keep the leather-bound crowd away from the cameras?

And, lastly, why should I care?

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« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2006, 11:16:12 PM »
This has been another of my long, rambling posts. So let me summarize by asking: a). why do gay males accept hetero females into their culture? b) why are some, if not most, hetero guys afraid to confront their own sexuality? c) why are "Lebanese women" hostile toward seemingly everyone? d) why have the leaders of the gay rights movement not learned to keep the leather-bound crowd away from the cameras?

I'm a native californian, so maybe I can help with this one...

Gay males and hetero females get along great, or at least most do, because most have something in common. Style.

I take wine advice, fasion advice, and food advice from gay friends. So does a lot of America (Queer Eye)

A girlfriend of mine would never be able to have fun talking about wine with me. So she talked to my gay friend instead.

Hetero guys who are afraid to confront their own sexuality, in my experience, are scared that they might find out they have gay leanings, and that thought terrifies them. I've been to gay bars, and never had a problem being in one... but mention that to a lot of my friends, and the first thing out of their mouths is, "Are you gay?"

I can understand where the question comes from, because the natural assumption is that a man who has been to gay bars is gay himself. But a lot of times a good reason to go to one is to drink and have fun in a social setting without the negative vibes that happen when you pack a bunch of straight males into a bar, all competing for the same chicks. How often to brawls break out at gay bars?

As for lesbians... I have no idea. I can formulate a theory though, and I hope this doesnt offend anyone.

First, a lot of guys who hang out with lesbians, or talk to them, are secretly interested in either "turning" them, or having a threesome with two lesbians. Lesbians know this, so they're naturally leery of guys at a lesbian establishment.

The second is that I believe many lesbians have traditionally male habits and personality quirks, namely the jealousy and competition that males have. They might see you as a (however improbable) threat to them. If this isn't true, I invite a lesbian to point this out to me. it's just an observation I've made.

As for your last question... I refer you to Jeff Foxworthy: "Rednecks aren't all dumb... we just can't keep the most ignorant among us off the TV."

I'd venture to guess that media sensationalism is the biggest factor. And maybe the gay rights folk are shooting themselves in the foot a little. They want people to recognize their cause, so they put the leather-clad guys in front to capture the media's attention. Any speaker knows that an attention getter is imperitive to capturing an audience.

Is this a good idea? I dunno.

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« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2006, 11:28:05 PM »
I'd argue the difference in general attitudes (there are obviously numerous exceptions in both camps) toward members of the opposite sex among gays and lesbians relates to the fact that they're two very different phenomena.

A little over a decade ago, Steve Sailer wrote an article where he contrasted gay and lesbian tendencies and suggested that male homosexuality is potentially largely genetic (thus less likely to be intertwined with "issues" about women) while female homosexuality is primarily social (hence the tendency to fit the "man hater" stereotype).  If this is the case it could go a long way in explaining gay friendliness toward "fag hags" and lesbian attitudes toward men.  There are, of course, many other factors at work.
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« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2006, 01:48:46 AM »
It's a combination of both.

Thefitzvh had it right. Women assume men are there for a cheap thrill. Because men tend to go there for a cheat thrill. And then act pissed off when the women look like..well, lesbians.

A lot of women do choose to be lesbians, as opposed to men who I think don't.

Some woman are gay because they dislike men, or for political reasons, although not all. But nearly all of them have thought a lot more about the dynamics between men and women than the average heterosexual woman which tends to make them more cranky. Be thankful more women don't think seriously about it. You'd find a lot of heterosexual women being grouchy about the whole thing. Smiley

FWIW, I'm not a lesbian because..well, because I'm not. But I can see why women would choose to do that. And I don't hate men personally (as in individual men) but I'm not thrilled with the whole interaction between the genders so I avoid them on a personal level.

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« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2006, 02:35:13 AM »
I don't know, I somehow found myself, alone, at an Indigo Girls concert once. I liked their music and I figured it would be a good place to meet women. My first clue to the leanings of the band was all the uh,,,Lebanese couples filtering in through the gate. There I was, a single heterosexual guy in a sea of 30,000 Lebanese girls. Talk about feeling left out and lonesome. I must say though, once the concert started and the Lebanese girls around me saw I was accepting of all this we had a grand old time. Man, them chicks get WILD!! And yes, I did manage to hit on a couple (one at a time)anyways, I mean, that's what I was there for. Nothing ventured nothing gained. No luck however. Tongue

I guess what I'm driving at is I don't necessarily see all lesbians as men haters. Some, without a doubt, but not all. A lot of times I'd bet they were afraid you were going to hit on their girlfriends. They're a jealous lot let me tell you. I'd be willing to venture that some are far more aggresive than men when it comes to their women.
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Trisha

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« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2006, 03:58:55 AM »
The term you're looking for is "Sapphic."

I involuntarily blew bubbles in my coffee (really, REALLY busy night-morning with Rescue) visualizing the naivete. . .

Barbara, you've got it accurately as far as I'm concerned: and I think lots of straight women shy away from taking too close a look.  Kathryn and I do our part to convert 'em as fast as we can. . . (I think it's only another eight and we qualify for the new Lexus!)  There's making the "choice," to be sure, but there is a lot of self-acceptance blossoming these days, where women understand that what matters is loving the person, not just anatomy (well, not exclusively, you understand).

thefitzvh - no clue at all, eh?  I recommend you read "And Then I Met This Woman" followed by "Bushfire."  If you're still confused (or if your confusion has only deepened), take two 6-packs of MJD and a Pizza Hut Meat Lover's Special with PPV's "NFL Weekend" package and you'll probably feel better by Monday.

Steve Sailer?  Goddess - thanks for the laugh!  Aah, the desperation. . .

Monkeyleg, the realization that you've missed an inherent, deeply-conditioned social consciousness to automatically being transparent within male priviledge and authoritarian, patriarchial society is actually a sign of hope.  You may begin to actually listen to the way men posture and position themselves mentally in any number of ordinary settings (car repair is my favorite example).  Stop letting your mind wander and listen, and then juxtapose yourself on the power heirarchy - there's a wealth to be learned.

Do I automatically hate men?  Nope - though they're lots easier to manage when they stay downrange on a tether. . .

What is absolutely true is that my ambivalence polarizes one way or the other in seconds at first contact/introduction.  Kathryn is faster.  But, she has memory, compared to me.  Body language, smell, a sense of balance and presence (or the lack thereof), tone and timbre of voice, etc.  We are more thorough than any Inquisition, more coldly judgemental than you'd ever guess.

And if you don't see that in women with whom you presently feel comfortable it's because you 1)aren't looking, or 2) aren't permitted - AKA, she's getting something she wants from you.

Does that help?

All without a barb,;no flag on the play, no harm no foul - please!

YMMV, though. . .

(smiling quietly)
and cello sonatas flow through the air. . .

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MicroBalrog

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« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2006, 04:06:00 AM »
I'm bisexual.

As in, I am sometimes attracted to males, and err affected by gay pr0n.

However, I do not hang out with gay people at all, because each time I hang out with a gay person, they seem to have a strange desire to utterly shove their gayness in everybody's face. It would be approximately the same if I walked up to a gay person and said:

"Hey, I'm Boris. I like women, too! Do you mind me liking women, too? Do you? Well, do you?"

About gay parades: Don't non-gay people understand that the very POINT of gay parades is to be as overtly, campily, stereotypically gay as humanly possible?
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Antibubba

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« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2006, 04:21:08 AM »
First off, if you're a straight male, and you end up at a gay bar with a group of friends, you'll end up on the floor, dancing.  A bunch of my friends in college were Dance majors, and after a week of plies and toe work, they'd unwind on Friday or Saturday night by dancing THEIR way.  I, who can best be described as having great rythym on some other planet, would join them-for hours.  I like to dance, and that bar was the most unthreatening place you've ever seen; none of the rooster-strutting crap you see at most places.  And the dance floor could've landed a 747-day or night. Smiley  Also, believe it or not, gay bars are a great place to meet girls-they're a lot less guarded and wary than at the "meat markets", and they figure if you're cool enough to come to a gay bar, you might have potential.  I met at least two girlfriends there.

Because of time constraints, I'll not go into the "lesbians vs men" thing, but as for the "Leather daddies and drag queens in front" thing, I think the stretegy is one of "Shock and Ehhh".  That is, as, year after year you become inured to the sight of proud freaks leading the way, eventually you won't even raise an eyebrow to the conservatively-dressed couple next door who just happen to be of the same gender.
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« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2006, 05:07:30 AM »
You folks have really sold me on the gay bar thing. In the unfortunate event that I, for some reason, have to go to a bar, I'll make it a gay one if at all possible.

No dancing though. I'll gnaw my legs off to make sure, if I have to.
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« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2006, 05:32:59 AM »
IMHO:

why do gay males accept hetero females into their culture?

femininity is something they covet




why are "Lebanese women" hostile toward seemingly everyone?

they fear that someone will convert/take that which they covet
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« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2006, 07:31:52 AM »
Some guys are insecure with their sexuality, so they not only ignore and shun gay folks, but they insult and belittle them to prove that they're not one of them.
Of course, we just laff at them and call them tarded.
Basically, I assume it's similar to the "projection" stuff that the anti-gunners do.
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« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2006, 08:44:49 AM »
Quote
Kathryn and I do our part to convert 'em as fast as we can. . . (I think it's only another eight and we qualify for the new Lexus!)
You've already gotten the toaster, then?
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« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2006, 08:57:11 AM »
This has reminded me of the gay male couple that lived above me for several years in the younger days. The most amazing thing about them was the parties the threw. You'd see maybe 20-30 guys headed upstairs and yet DIDN'T HEAR A PEEP ALL NIGHT!! I never bothered to invesigate exactly what it was they were doing so quietly up there. Then there was the time we had simultaneous parties and I invited them and their friends to join us. Didn't work so well though. Neither side was very open minded about partying with the other. We'll call it a failed experiment. Cheesy
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« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2006, 09:01:15 AM »
And dammit! Quit trying to convert all the girls! You guys got enough on your side already. Remember, I went to an Indigo Girls concert. I got a pretty good idea of how many there are of you! I WAS right, I couldn't have picked a better place to meet women. It's pretty sad though when your a single guy surrounded by ~ 30,000 women and none of them are the least bit interested in you. Well, maybe one was, but she got over it pretty quick. Tongue
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Felonious Monk/Fignozzle

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« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2006, 10:21:58 AM »
It's really funny, for me.  
There's an old Pogo cartoon that says "I LOVE humanity.  It's PEOPLE I can't stand".

As a group, meaning the parades and masses yelling "we're here, we're queer--get used to it!" are just totally nauseating to me.

And yet, when I meet an individual who is LGBT, I find in many, even most cases, that I REALLY like them.  

One of my 'guilty pleasures' is watching the LOGO channel.  Very very creative short films, shows, and as a plus, I get educated on things like "genderqueer"... (purposely not being male OR female)
It helps with understanding the trauma of trying to 'come out' to family and the possibility of being rejected, and some of the bizarre extremes to which people go to redefine themselves.

I guess I gain compassion toward some individuals profiled, and it's like watching a bad car wreck at other times.  The one thing I get to do is to learn to evaluate individuals and not stereotype groups.

To each his own.
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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2006, 11:04:25 AM »
Quote from: mbs357
Most guys are insecure with their sexuality, so they not only ignore and shun gay folks, but they insult and belittle them to prove that they're not one of them.
Let's watch the unwarranted generalizations, there, OK?

Ignoring and shunning homosexuals comes mainly from the fact that most people are a little repelled by homosexuality - sometimes very much so.  Most people are just, well, grossed out by the thought of it.  I am one of them, for good or ill.  Laugh or be offended, if you must.  

I'm sure there are people who go overboard to avoid guilt by association, as you have observed, but just because a person doesn't want to get too close to a homosexual doesn't automatically make them insecure.  

"Most guys are insecure with their sexuality"?  First of all I think you are overestimating due to the above misunderstanding.  But I will grant a lot of men are.  Why?  Because masculinity has been redefined to mean brutishness.  Men today are told that any refinement of manners or taste is feminine.  Any sensitivity, appreciation for poetry, etc. is thought of as shedding brutish masculinity and getting in touch with one's "feminine side," as if men had such a thing.  So when a guy has any of these refinements, he wonders about himself.

There is another reason, I think.  We're told that some overinflated percentage of Americans are homosexual, that they're everywhere.  The profile of homosexuality has been raised.  So, men can't assume that everyone else assumes they are heterosexual.  It has to be proved.  

There's my musings on the subject, at least.
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James Fitzer

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« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2006, 11:23:23 AM »
"thefitzvh - no clue at all, eh?  I recommend you read "And Then I Met This Woman" followed by "Bushfire."  If you're still confused (or if your confusion has only deepened), take two 6-packs of MJD and a Pizza Hut Meat Lover's Special with PPV's "NFL Weekend" package and you'll probably feel better by Monday."


Heh.... i'll certainly take a look at it. I'm fumbling my way through the rest of "Public Sex" and "The selfish gene" right now.

BUT: It had better work... because I hate football, and can't stand cheap beer.

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« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2006, 01:08:02 PM »
Not sure where you find the hostile lesbians...most I've met were as friendly as the male gays and as friendly as the straights. Maybe the issue is the quality of the company in general, without subdividing into subcategories.

Iain

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« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2006, 01:34:10 PM »
I met a lesbian once who wasn't at all hostile. She was very friendly for about two weeks until we stopped being friends for some reason or other. Can't quite remember. I was 18 and it was first term of my first year at university. Live and learn. Well it's not happened again yet.
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« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2006, 01:59:41 PM »
Quote
Let's watch the unwarranted generalizations, there, OK?
Whoa what did I do?
Would it have been better if I said some guys?
Other than that, I agree with your post...but I just don't understand what I said that warrants a brief chewing out.
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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2006, 02:06:18 PM »
Quote from: mbs357
Most guys are insecure with their sexuality, so they not only ignore and shun gay folks, but they insult and belittle them to prove that they're not one of them.
Unless you honestly believe that most men:

1) are sexually insecure
2) ignore and shun "gay folks" due primarily to this insecurity
3) insult and belittle homosexuals primarily "to prove that they're not one of them."

Do you really know for sure that most men do 2 and 3?  How do you know why they do it?  What do you mean by "insecure"?  Are you saying most men think they might be homosexual, or do you mean that most men are afraid others will think so?

I'm not in a position to "chew you out," I'm just offering my point of view.
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« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2006, 03:29:20 PM »
Whoa, wait lemme check...

Nope, still not gay, sorry fellas! Cheesy
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« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2006, 04:31:14 PM »
back when i worked in a DC pizzeria, one of the waitrons was a lesbian

i used to hang about with her and her room mate

they introduced me to their circle of friends and one was a stunning lipstick lesbian

quite friendly and flirtatious

boy did the pack close ranks between us ASAP

ever meet a lesbian with shortman syndrome?

now that is HOSTILE
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« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2006, 04:52:37 PM »
Well, gee, sorry I said most. o_O
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Sunday it felt a little better, but it was quite irritated from me rubbing it.
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If you watch any of the really early episodes of the Porter Waggoner show she was in (1967) it's very clear that he was well endowed.
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Just wanted to give a forum thumbs up to Dick.

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« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2006, 06:23:51 PM »
I've been to a lesbian club exactly once, with my girlfriend, another male/female couple we were freinds with, and two single girls.  There was a definite hostile vibe directed at me and my male friend, from the regular patrons of the club.  We both picked up on this pretty quickly.  We asked the girls about this after we all left, and they said they didn't notice anything.  They said the place seemed pretty friendly.

Our first reaction was that the hostility was because they thought we were competing for the other women in the club.  You get this sometimes in other clubs and bars.  But this wouldn't make sense, because both of us guys were obviosly involved with our respective girlfriends, and we definitely were not showing interest in the other women at the club.

Feminism, and hardcore feminism in particular, is more prevalent among lesbians than in the general population.  The only thing I can figure is that there were some aggressive feminists in the croud at this club, and that they were the source of the bad vibes we were getting that night.  I think that they simply didn't like the fact that we were men and that we were in their club.  I can't think of any reason we gave them for disliking us so strongly, and if it wasn't "what we were doing" then that leaves "who we were" as the cause for their dislike of us.

As for gay men, I don't think there is any analogous anti-women or pro-male sentiment.  It's not uncommon for a lesbian to be a lesbian because she dislikes men.  But I've never known a man to be gay because he dislikes women.  Gay men are gay because they like other men, not because they hate women.  I think there's even a sense of comraderie and kinship between gay men and straight women, given that they both find men attractive.  Thus a woman at a gay club wouldn't get the same sense of hostility that a guy might get at a lesbian club.

(Disclaimer:  It isn't my intention to offend anyone.  These are simple observations I've made over the years, with no moral or value judgements attached.  So if anything I've said here bothers you, well, tough cookies.)