New military entrance rule...

[Felonious Monk/Fignozzle]

So my prodigal 28 yr. old brother shoulders some adult responsibility, marries his live-in girlfriend, and they have a beautiful daughter a few months ago.

Seeing the $ writing on the wall, he decides to enlist in the navy.
Being a college grad, the intent is to take maximum advantage of bonuses, training and shoot for an OCS slot upon completion of basic and AIT.

The recruiter was encouraging, agreeing to function as liaison to just get him the best deal possible.  
He got a 94 on the ASVAB, and had quit his job and was working out, quit smoking and was supposed to go tomorrow to swear in.

The recruiter just called and told him that there is a new rule for military entrance:
If you have *ever* failed a military entrance drug test, you are ineligible for service...
for life.

He failed an entrance drug test 7 years ago.

Bro is devastated, since this was sort of a desparation attempt at responsibility.


Have any of you heard of this provision?
Doesn't it seem awfully heavy handed?
Wow.  Just wow...

[Perd Hapley]

Yeah, it sounds a little unreasonable.  Seems like he could get a waiver for that sort of thing.  Tell him to check on it.  He should call his Congresscreep if he has to.

[TarpleyG]

Hell, there was a guy in my boot camp platoon at MCRD in 1987 that got yanked out of formation one day because his drug test finally came back and he tested positive for pot.  The DIs yelled at him a lot and generally made his life a living hell for the next 13 weeks or so but they didnt send him home.

Greg

[mtnbkr]

I call BS.  Prior drug use won't keep you from getting various DOD security clearances, so why would they block you from service?  Besides, wouldn't this be something they'd share BEFORE he got this close to swearing in?  Something tells me the recruiter didn't like some aspect of the deal he was setting up with your brother.

I'd start making phone calls.  

Chris

[Felonious Monk/Fignozzle]

Thanks Chris, Greg, all.

Phone calls are being made, to get the "RU Code" (rejection code) from 7 years ago, based on the positive drug test.

Letters are being drafted to be faxed directly to our congressman at the direction of his chief-of-staff, and that person indicated that if this is indeed the policy, there may be an option for a waiver.

According to the recruiter, this is a new provision that they don't even have on the books/in the recruiting manuals yet, which is why they waited 'till the night before my brother swore in to tell him-- no one had any idea about it until the paperwork was being arranged to make him official.  Recruiter says it's a first for him, too, and will try to do what he can.

Any other suggestions?

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Yup, something doesn't add up.  Recruiters check for disqualifiers like that from the beginning, if only to make sure they aren't wasting their time trying to recruit someone who can't be recruited.  It sounds like there's some other, unspoken reason for them not wanting to take your bro.

It could be that the recruiter was incompetant and forgot to check thngs like that up front.  Or it could be as mtnbkr says, the recruiter is having second thoughts on the deal he offered and is trying to weasel out from under it.

[wingnutx]

Admitting to some prior drug use (pot) won't keep you out, but I am not suprised that failing a test would get you banned for life.

I admitted to smoking pot when I enlisted in 1987, and needed a waiver then.

IIRC, when we tested upon arriving at boot camp in 88, we were told that failing would get us blackballed for life.

[Perd Hapley]

IIRC, when we tested upon arriving at boot camp in 88, we were told that failing would get us blackballed for life.

You hear a lot of rumors in the military, especially in boot camp.

[Perd Hapley]

Being a college grad, the intent is to take maximum advantage of bonuses, training and shoot for an OCS slot upon completion of basic and AIT.

I'd be very wary of "shooting" for anything after Basic.  I don't know if you can get a commission in your contract, or not, but OCS ought to be agreed upon in the enlistment contract if at all possible.  

I was told they would be recruiting us for Airborne after we finished OSUT (Basic and Advanced training for combat specialties).  That turned out to be quite a ridiculous idea - Airborne School doesn't come looking for you.

[wingnutx]

You hear a lot of rumors in the military,

I have personally started as many as possible, just to see if they will catch on

[Felonious Monk/Fignozzle]

Being a college grad, the intent is to take maximum advantage of bonuses, training and shoot for an OCS slot upon completion of basic and AIT.

I'd be very wary of "shooting" for anything after Basic.  I don't know if you can get a commission in your contract, or not, but OCS ought to be agreed upon in the enlistment contract if at all possible.  

I was told they would be recruiting us for Airborne after we finished OSUT (Basic and Advanced training for combat specialties).  That turned out to be quite a ridiculous idea - Airborne School doesn't come looking for you.

Don't worry.  He's 28, and went in saying "hey, I don't need a sales pitch, I know nothing means anything unless it's in writing, and what I need is for you to tell me what the best deals in terms of bonuses and job specialties you can get me."

The guy was a recruiting manager, appreciated his honest, straight-up approach, and did just that.  

I don't know the particulars of any promises made, just what I got 3rd-hand from my 70 year old dad.  No idea re: OCS promises or whatever, just that RIGHT NOW, they've spent taxpayer money & time to process a good guy in, and due to a 7 year old positive pot test, they're going to lose out.  And, so is he.

[280plus]

When I processed into boot camp (1975) the corpsman tells the group of us, "You have to give a urine sample for a drug test. You have to write down everything you've drank."( beer, wine, whiskey or tequila were the categories IIRC) Then he says, "If any of you have anything in your urine you DON'T want to talk about tell me and I will urinate in the cup for you and you should write down beer and wine."

Don't they do that anymore?



BTW I had to write down beer and tequila. Lesson learned? NEVER get totaly pukin' drunk on beer and tequila the night before boot camp.

[Felonious Monk/Fignozzle]

I just fail to see how infantile stupidity would preclude one from serving his/her country for a lifetime.

I live a pretty straight-laced life at this point, but there was a time years ago, when I would have failed said drug test.  People grow up.  What policy wonk idiot is living in such a world devoid of reality and wields enough influence to actually get something like this passed?

Amazing.
One strike, you're out.

[wingnutx]

I agree that it is dumb, but I am not suprised.

[280plus]

Hey wingnutx, your fairly recent, what is the drug situation in the service now. It was pretty rampant mid to late 70s. Has anything changed?

[Chris]

This has got to be an error of some kind.  I had akid here in court the other week with prior delinquency charges of Assault on a Police Officer, Trafficking in Marihuana with a gun specification, CCW, and some other crap, and the Navy helped the kid get it all sealed so he could enlist.  Seems like a hell of a lot more concerning issues than a positive drug test that's eight years old...

[Felonious Monk/Fignozzle]

We're working really hard to try and get some kind of exception/waiver for my bro.

One option: the Army instead of Navy.

Problem is, he is CONVINCED that if he goes into the Army, he is SURE he will be deployed to Iraq.

If one enlists with very high ASVABs, is there an MOS that will provide a high likelihood of NOT going to Iraq?  He doesn't mind Germany/Okinawa/ anyplace else, just doesn't want to be in the sandbox.

DISCLAIMER: that's NOT my thoughts-- service in Iraq is worthy of great honor.  It's just what he's asking for, and so I'm passing the question along here to those who might be able to answer.
Fig

Anyone? Anyone?

[wingnutx]

I doubt that it's anywhere near as rampant as in the 70s. We get tested a lot, plus it's just not the 70s anymore.

People keep that stuff quiet, because you will absolutely get kicked out.

I went in in 88, and heard from old guys how many times they'd gotten busted with pot and got slapped on the wrist. Those days were long gone before I showed up.

Obviously people still do drugs, because they get caught and booted. Zero tolerance won't stamp drug use out, but it definitely weeds out the non-discrete.

Personally I don't care if some GI smokes a joint when he's home on leave, anymore than I care if he drinks a couple of beers. Do either on duty and I'll happily put him through the wringer.

Get a DUI and you'll get at least lose a stripe. Maybe get the boot.

[wingnutx]

cas700850 : if it was a juvenile record then they could probably overlook it, even though it's much more serious.

If he goes Army then he is likely to end up in Iraq. Hell of a lot of us squids over there too, though.

If he has an MOS working on soeme equipment that is not in Iraq then he probably wont get sent there.

My uncle spent the Vietnam war in Germany because he worked on the Redeye missile, which wasn't used in Vietnam.

I can't think of anything that would aply here, though.

[Guest]

Felonious, if he does not want to go to the sandbox he shouldn't join.

It doesn't matter how high or low of a chance he gets with a certain MOS either, because a LOT of things can happen during training. For example, I'm here at DLI in the Air Force becoming a linguist. The training for us is measure in years. Jobs that take advantage of high ASVAB scores tend to have longer training times. Things can happen and he can fail out. Doesn't even have to be academic. Things just happen, trust me.

Anyhow, the point is, he's never guaranteed a job that won't put him in Iraq, even if he is guranteed the training. He really needs to be either to ready to go to Iraq or seriously reconsider joining.

[wingnutx]

Felonious, if he does not want to go to the sandbox he shouldn't join.

I agree.

Most troops over there are fobbits anyway. We have the same lopsided tail/teeth ratio we've always had, keeping most of us inside the wire.

Even when I went outside, I did not take direct fire even once that I know of in the 6 months I was in Iraq.

[Moondoggie]

I don't understand.....

As a retired Marine and a former officer recruiter (all services' officer personnel policies are derived from Title 10 & 17, USC) I have to ask "If he's already a college grad, why isn't he applying directly for an officer program"?  I can tell you, however, that the prior evidence of drug use would be an automatic disqualifer for commissioned service.  "They" are totally non-negotiable on something like that.

Also, he is pretty old and the law requires an initial entrant to obtain a commission prior to their 29th birthday.  Even if he enlists first, he still has to beat the birthday deadline.  Some of the services will grant an age waiver based upon service (a concept called "constructive age"), the Marines didn't....ever.  His chances of obtaining a commission AFTER enlisting are zero when you throw in the drug factor.

I can't think of any MOS that would preclude deployment to the ME indefinately.  Your hardcore Navy ratings like bosun's mate, or hull technician would keep him from spending any time ashore, but no way to gaurantee where ships go or to ensure permanent shore duty in Wisconsin.  Enlistment promises pertain only to initial assignments, after a few months of service, it's "The needs of the service".  If he doesn't want to be a man under authority who goes where he's told, then he should seek employment elsewhere.

It's possible that the Navy recently adopted this policy and it just wasn't communicated down to the recruiter.  Having someone reapply who was formerly rejected for a positive UA isn't that common an occurance.  Did your brother tell the recruiter about this up front?  Things slip through the cracks sometimes.  It's also possible that since they're making quota, they can afforde to be more choosy.

From my experience, given his age, overeducation for enlisted service, and the drug thing it's not likely that he's going to get in regardless of how unfair folks on the outside may think it is.

Duty, Honor, Country doesn't always include everybody.

[wingnutx]

We have Hull Techs and BMs in my Seabee battalion, and they play in the dirt just like we do. They do mostly go to shipboard billets, but not all.

If I'd  know that there were HTs in the Seabees then I wouldn't have come in as a steelworker. I was an HT for my 6 years of active duty, and lost tons of time-in-rate when I came back in.

As for being overeducated, they are pushing enlisted men to get college degrees as much as possible, so I don't know why that would be a problem.

Reservists in particular tend to be overeducated for their military jobs.

[Felonious Monk/Fignozzle]

I'm torn.

On the one hand, little brother needs a big dose of reality.  
He made his bed, then $h!t in it; *HE* has created this situation.  Not much compassion in my heart for him there.

On the other hand...I see him (at long last) making an honest effort to right the wrongs he's done over the years, and would love to see even a modest opportunity come through for him at this point, to sort of reinforce the good choices/good behavior so there is more of the same behavior forthcoming.

Actions have long-term, sometimes un-erasable consequences; some of us assume the responsibilities of adulthood sooner/later than others.  
He's a "late bloomer", to say the least.  But, he is making good choices now.  No erasure of consequences, but the fella needs a break, as in an opportunity at this point.

Understand?

[Gewehr98]

If I could count the times I had to give samples during random urinalysis over the last 21 years...

Plus, I had observer duty Gawd knows how many times during that same military career.

I've also escorted a couple of those military members to Leavenworth after their courts martial.  No fun.

My two stepsons tell me that 75% or more of the U.S. military smoke pot or do worse.  I lived a relatively sheltered career then, because with the frequent urinalysis program and TS/SCI background check every 5 years, there was no way on Gawd's Green Earth I wanted to jeopardize what I had going.  I'd love to hear where that 75% figure came from.  Of course, both of them are pot smokers...

I feel sorry for your brother because he cannot enter the military.  But in all honesty, he'll have to direct his energies elsewhere, appeals and letters of outrage will do nothing.

Bottom line:  For every enlistment/commissioning candidate that tests positive for contraband, there are just as many, if not more, who didn't.  The DoD isn't going to shed tears when they can just take the next guy who walks in the door sans baggage.