Author Topic: A Local Rocket Launch for Interested Northwest Folks  (Read 15321 times)

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: A Local Rocket Launch for Interested Northwest Folks
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2009, 11:57:46 PM »
ultra lights don't go near as fast. and i've seen some stuff go very bad off the launch rod
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MicroBalrog

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Re: A Local Rocket Launch for Interested Northwest Folks
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2009, 12:04:15 AM »
ultra lights don't go near as fast. and i've seen some stuff go very bad off the launch rod

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Re: A Local Rocket Launch for Interested Northwest Folks
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2009, 12:46:44 AM »
Why would that increase the velocity ? 

I worded that poorly, Silver Bullet.  My fault.  It is a matter of propulsive force (engine thrust) exerted over time.
(For example's sake only, I'm pulling the following numbers out of thin air.  A rocket's acceleration and eventual velocity are highly dependant on a number of factors too messy to include here.)

A rocket constantly accelerates as long as its engine burns.  And for the most part, the faster the rocket is moving, the better the guidance effect of the fins. 
With its motor burning, a rocket will be moving at x velocity when it reaches the end of a 3 foot launch rod.  At that speed the fins may or may not have enough air moving over them to provide for stable flight when the rocket leaves the rod.
A rocket using a six foot launch rod will have had more time to accelerate to a higher velocity when it reaches the end of the rod, and the air moving over the fins will of course be moving faster, providing a greater flight control effect.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: A Local Rocket Launch for Interested Northwest Folks
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2009, 01:05:33 AM »
  (Except maybe, you could fly fistful. =D)


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Silver Bullet

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Re: A Local Rocket Launch for Interested Northwest Folks
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2009, 02:06:40 AM »
Quote
A rocket constantly accelerates as long as its engine burns.  And for the most part, the faster the rocket is moving, the better the guidance effect of the fins. 
With its motor burning, a rocket will be moving at x velocity when it reaches the end of a 3 foot launch rod.  At that speed the fins may or may not have enough air moving over them to provide for stable flight when the rocket leaves the rod.
A rocket using a six foot launch rod will have had more time to accelerate to a higher velocity when it reaches the end of the rod, and the air moving over the fins will of course be moving faster, providing a greater flight control effect.

I had to read that twice.   =) 

A rocket at six feet will be going at the same speed regardless of whether the rod was 3 feet or 6 feet.  v = v(0) + at.  But, you're stating that on the six foot rod the rocket will be under greater aerodynamic "control" and thus is more stable at 6 ft + .  In fact, at 3 ft + .  The part that is new to me is "At that speed the fins may or may not have enough air moving over them to provide for stable flight" .  I didn't realize there is a discontinuity, or nonlinearity, in the dynamic.  I guess I just figured it was as simple as keeping the center of pressure behind the center of gravity, and you're saying (I think) that might not be enough; that the velocity has to be above a certain minimum for that stabilizing factor to work.  Interesting.

In any case, if I have any rocketry questions, I'll know who to ask.   :cool:

S. Williamson

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Re: A Local Rocket Launch for Interested Northwest Folks
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2009, 04:49:59 AM »
I had to read that twice.   =) 

A rocket at six feet will be going at the same speed regardless of whether the rod was 3 feet or 6 feet.  v = v(0) + at.  But, you're stating that on the six foot rod the rocket will be under greater aerodynamic "control" and thus is more stable at 6 ft + .  In fact, at 3 ft + .  The part that is new to me is "At that speed the fins may or may not have enough air moving over them to provide for stable flight" .  I didn't realize there is a discontinuity, or nonlinearity, in the dynamic.  I guess I just figured it was as simple as keeping the center of pressure behind the center of gravity, and you're saying (I think) that might not be enough; that the velocity has to be above a certain minimum for that stabilizing factor to work.  Interesting.

In any case, if I have any rocketry questions, I'll know who to ask.   :cool:
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Re: A Local Rocket Launch for Interested Northwest Folks
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2009, 07:42:51 AM »
So much for writing that late at night.  You still had to read it twice.  :laugh:
SB, you are correct in that the CP must remain behind the CG for the rocket to maintain stable flight.  Swap those two and the rocket turns into a sky writer or a lawn dart.
The rule of thumb for that separation is one caliber, i.e., one diameter of the rocket body.  One caliber being a hard minimum, but up to two calibers is done sometimes.  Beyond two calibers, and stability problems can start to creep in again.
For the fins to exert flight corrective "pressure" at the CP, air must be moving over them.  To exert enough pressure for stable flight, the air must be moving over the fins a minimum velocity.  That minimum varies from rocket to rocket, depending on a whole host of design parameters.
To simplify things for the rocket flyer, a "rule of thumb" is once again used, that being 30 mph.  The rocket should be moving at a minimum of 30 mph as it leaves the launch rod to maintain stability.
Many of us rocketeers use computer programs to design and flight model our rockets.  I use one called RockSim by an outfit out of Colorado Springs.

Dionysusigma, air drag, gravity, even the friction of the launch rod and launch lug, are the complexities that I was ignoring for simplicity's sake.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 07:46:14 AM by RocketMan »
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Re: A Local Rocket Launch for Interested Northwest Folks
« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2009, 08:47:34 AM »
Why would that increase the velocity ?  That works with a firearm, because a longer barrel means the expanding gases are pushing (accelerating) the bullet for a longer time before it leaves the barrel, but the longer rod doesn't result in the motor pushing for a longer duration.  The only advantage I see of the longer rod is increased stability (and THAT would increase speed a bit, I suppose) and greater directional control as it leaves the launch pad.  I would think the longer rod would result in more friction.

I'm probably wrong, but here's my chance to learn why.   =)

It's not that the rocket would be going faster at the end of the motor burn.  It's that it would be traveling faster when it left the rod.  The acceleration the rocket experiences is not instant, and in fact is not a constant either.  So a longer rod means that the rocket is being stabilized by the rod for a longer amount of time, which means that the rocket is traveling faster when it leaves the stability of the rod.

EDIT:  Whoops, shoulda noticed the "page 2" button...  But you're right in that at 6feet above the ground, the rocket is traveling at the same velocity regardless of the length of the launch rod.  The difference is, with a 6 foot rod, the rocket is still being stabilized waiting to reach that critical stable velocity.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 08:52:57 AM by AmbulanceDriver »
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Re: A Local Rocket Launch for Interested Northwest Folks
« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2009, 08:57:04 AM »

SB, you are correct in that the CP must remain behind the CG for the rocket to maintain stable flight.  Swap those two and the rocket turns into a sky writer or a lawn dart.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QD8Sx4v-aXw

This is what happens when you don't hit that critical stable velocity.  A longer launch rod would probably have helped on this one.  Instead, since one of the fins broke off on impact, I just ended up redesigning the fins a little larger to move the CP further to the rear. 

Here's the successful launch:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Os7Sik7Gxmc  (sorry about the sideways view. forgot that I didn't have the software to rotate the video).
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Re: A Local Rocket Launch for Interested Northwest Folks
« Reply #34 on: August 25, 2009, 01:06:06 PM »
A longer launch rod would probably have helped on this one.

Shorter delay too; it's supposed to pop immediately after it hits the ground  :lol:


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Re: A Local Rocket Launch for Interested Northwest Folks
« Reply #35 on: August 25, 2009, 07:49:26 PM »
THIS is one of my favorite model rocket videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqt3y19N9AI
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Silver Bullet

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Re: A Local Rocket Launch for Interested Northwest Folks
« Reply #36 on: August 25, 2009, 11:28:58 PM »
The rule of thumb for that separation is one caliber, i.e., one diameter of the rocket body. 
...
Many of us rocketeers use computer programs to design and flight model our rockets.  I use one called RockSim by an outfit out of Colorado Springs.

Over two calibers of separation leads to stability problems ?  I guess my Rocketry 101 education I got from the Estes catalog decades ago (1. Get the CP behind the CG and you’re good to go.  2. Move the CP back by building bigger fins.  3. Move the CG forward by using a longer tube) is good for a first order approximation, but nowhere near the whole story.

Can’t get away from RockSim.  I don’t have it, but some of the online rocket dealers are constantly waving it in my face.  Given what you said about two calibers of separation between CP and CG, I can see why it would save a lot of trial and error when designing your own rockets.

One of my rockets came with CP and CG decals.  I know you can determine the CG by balancing the rocket on your finger and seeing where it levels.  I was trying to figure how folks determined the CP location to place that decal.  One approach that occurred to me was to gradually move the CG back using weights inside the rocket, and observe at what point the rocket became unstable.  I now realize that they are more likely using a program such as RockSim to calculate the location.  Cheaters.   :laugh:

Quote
Swap those two and the rocket turns into a sky writer

“Not that there’s anything wrong with that”; sky writers are very entertaining!  (See AmbulanceDriver’s link above). 

Speaking of sky writers and lawn darts .. I assume everybody here has seen the movie October Sky, based on the book Rocket Boys?   Wonderful movie.

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Re: A Local Rocket Launch for Interested Northwest Folks
« Reply #37 on: August 26, 2009, 12:05:45 AM »
Over two calibers of separation leads to stability problems ?  I guess my Rocketry 101 education I got from the Estes catalog decades ago (1. Get the CP behind the CG and you’re good to go.  2. Move the CP back by building bigger fins.  3. Move the CG forward by using a longer tube) is good for a first order approximation, but nowhere near the whole story.

Can’t get away from RockSim.  I don’t have it, but some of the online rocket dealers are constantly waving it in my face.  Given what you said about two calibers of separation between CP and CG, I can see why it would save a lot of trial and error when designing your own rockets.

One of my rockets came with CP and CG decals.  I know you can determine the CG by balancing the rocket on your finger and seeing where it levels.  I was trying to figure how folks determined the CP location to place that decal.  One approach that occurred to me was to gradually move the CG back using weights inside the rocket, and observe at what point the rocket became unstable.  I now realize that they are more likely using a program such as RockSim to calculate the location.  Cheaters.   :laugh:

“Not that there’s anything wrong with that”; sky writers are very entertaining!  (See AmbulanceDriver’s link above). 

Speaking of sky writers and lawn darts .. I assume everybody here has seen the movie October Sky, based on the book Rocket Boys?   Wonderful movie.


SB, one of the ways I learned to approximate CP is to take a cardboard cutout of the profile of your rocket.  The point at which your rocket  cutout balances (the CG of the cutout) is the approximate CP.
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Silver Bullet

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Re: A Local Rocket Launch for Interested Northwest Folks
« Reply #38 on: August 26, 2009, 01:03:22 AM »
That sounds fairly crude.   =) 

How do you deal with the fins ?  Make a silhouette of each and tape it at their location near the end of the tube ?  That would seem proportional.

I suspect there are certain assumptions made with that approach, such as a nose cone with reasonably good ballistic coefficient.  Otherwise, you could have a flat end (no nose cone) which wouldn't make much difference in your profile, but which would make a huge difference in the actual rocket (moving the CP to the front).


S. Williamson

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Re: A Local Rocket Launch for Interested Northwest Folks
« Reply #39 on: August 26, 2009, 03:04:01 AM »
How does someone "break into" model rocketry?  This seems like something I'd love to do, but have never had the opportunity...  =(
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Silver Bullet

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Re: A Local Rocket Launch for Interested Northwest Folks
« Reply #40 on: August 26, 2009, 03:28:43 AM »
Easiest way, for about $20, is to buy an Estes starter kit, IMO.  It will come with a rocket, an engine, a launch pad, and a launch controller.  Actually, everything you need to launch a rocket ... once.

http://www.estesrockets.com/categories.php?cat=starter

Lots of hobby stores carry these, and even some crafts stores like Michael's.

It's very easy at this level.  Things to be aware of when buying a starter kit:

1) There are varying degrees of difficulty, ranging from rockets already completely built, to requiring very little effort (ETX, I think), to requiring a little more skill (Level 1, 2, 3). 

Also, when you buy a kit, you will want to buy extra engines.  Look on the starter kit package to see what engines the manufacturer recommends for the rocket.  They usually come in packages of three.  Two or three packages should be sufficient for your first time out.  I usually get some in one of the lesser power sizes (like 'A' or 'B') and also one in a higher power ('C' or 'D'), depending on the recommended engines for that particular rocket.

I also always buy an extra package of igniters and an extra package of wadding

You'll probably need some white or wood glue.  I doubt you'll need paint unless you get a Level 1, 2, or 3 rocket.  Actually, I think it's not so much skill as it is patience.

The thing about rockets is it can be a lot of fun for very little effort and money.  Also, it's a very fun thing to do with kids. 

I only get involved with it once every year or so, and then I put it aside for awhile.  It is not satisfying on the level of shooting, but it's more relaxed, cheaper, easier, at least at this level.  You can build bigger, more powerful rockets, and you can design your own.  Both of those paths take more money (but not much) and involvement.

The starter kits make it pretty foolproof.  Observe carefully the instructions regarding putting the igniters in the engines.  Estes, I think, has a great page on their web site about igniters.  But, even if you do it wrong, it'll still work half the time.  It's easy to do right, and easy to do wrong if you don't read the instructions.

This is a hobby that scales up.  The small rockets that use 'A' and 'B' engines cost about fifty cents per launch.  It's hard to beat the cost with any other hobby.  My 'D' engines cost me $5, I think ?  They are for bigger rockets.  The 'E' engines I bought for my Aspire cost me $11 each. 

Silver Bullet

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Re: A Local Rocket Launch for Interested Northwest Folks
« Reply #41 on: August 26, 2009, 11:42:20 AM »
Ummm, I guess my prices were a bit off.  That was off the top of my head, and my head seems to get shorter every year ...   =(

https://www.discountrocketry.com/model-rocket-engines-c-9_38.html?osCsid=6aed6d9eb9e81a40001dede3f36a0e8b

This page is showing you prices for packages of THREE engines.  So, divide each dollar amount by three to get the price per, plus shipping.

I try to support my local hobby shop, even though their prices on rockets are about 20% high, except when I'm buying something they don't have; then I shop online.

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Re: A Local Rocket Launch for Interested Northwest Folks
« Reply #42 on: August 26, 2009, 10:38:40 PM »
This thread was nice to read.   =)

I have been wanting to get back into rocketry for awhile.  Once this grad school craziness is over, maybe I will.  Rocksim looks pretty cool, I will have to try the 30 day trial.  I think this is a nerdy enough endeavor to teach my future child.

It would be interesting to figure out a way to move the CM mid-flight.  Combined with an accelerometer you could control the trajectory.  I could do that in labview, at least in theory.  I imagine actually doing it could be difficult though.
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Re: A Local Rocket Launch for Interested Northwest Folks
« Reply #43 on: August 26, 2009, 10:42:36 PM »
You ought to come down to the Sheridan launch, Physics, even if it's just for a couple of hours.  I think you'd enjoy it.

It would be interesting to figure out a way to move the CM mid-flight.  Combined with an accelerometer you could control the trajectory.

Yes you could, but it is seriously frowned upon.  Guided missle stuff there, and .gov gets all jittery about that.  All model rockets must be free flight, no guidance at all.
That does not include rocket boosted gliders, however.  Lots of folks doing scale R/C space shuttles and the like.
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Re: A Local Rocket Launch for Interested Northwest Folks
« Reply #44 on: August 26, 2009, 11:49:45 PM »
Alas, I will be in the lab all day.  You are right, I would love it, and as soon as grad school is done I can focus on hobbies again.  I should be done with my masters in a couple of months and will be taking a year break to make money.

Quote
Yes you could, but it is seriously frowned upon.  Guided missle stuff there, and .gov gets all jittery about that.  All model rockets must be free flight, no guidance at all.
That does not include rocket boosted gliders, however.  Lots of folks doing scale R/C space shuttles and the like.
I didn't realize there were regs on this type of stuff.  Damn, I need someone to hire me so I can do this stuff I guess. :|  Anyone got the hookup at Raytheon?  ;) 

See that bums me out.  Every time I get an idea to do some fun physics experiment, it's always freaking illegal!*  What the hell kind of commie country regulates perchloric acid anyways?    =D =D  Luckily they haven't regulated ball lightning yet.  :cool:

*In case you were wondering, yes, that was a joke.
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Re: A Local Rocket Launch for Interested Northwest Folks
« Reply #45 on: August 27, 2009, 12:22:13 AM »
Y'all have convinced me to get back into model rocketry for the edification of my children.

It has nothing to do with my own enjoyment of model rocketry as a child or that the first program I wrote in my first programming language* that had a physics component was a means to estimate how high my rocket would fly.


* Quick Basic, the worlds most worthless language
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S. Williamson

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Re: A Local Rocket Launch for Interested Northwest Folks
« Reply #46 on: August 27, 2009, 05:29:12 AM »
/seriously wondering if it's possible to rig an RC sub to launch a rocket...  =)
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Re: A Local Rocket Launch for Interested Northwest Folks
« Reply #47 on: August 27, 2009, 11:29:12 AM »
/seriously wondering if it's possible to rig an RC sub to launch a rocket...  =)

In my ill-spent youth, I rigged model rockets to fire into the water and they seemed to keep burning just fine.

Given that black powder has all the oxygen it needs in the mix, I think they would work fine if you could properly seal/insulate the engine & igniter hardware.
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Re: A Local Rocket Launch for Interested Northwest Folks
« Reply #48 on: August 27, 2009, 11:35:03 AM »
/seriously wondering if it's possible to rig an RC sub to launch a rocket...  =)

http://rcmodelsubmarines.co.uk/#/1100-ssbn-624-woodrow-wilson/4530491327

You just need to build a sealed tube for the rocket to go in!  Maybe rig a CO2 cartridge to eject the missile rocket with a small delay before the engine ignites.

How is that gyroscope and micro-nuke research going?   =D
« Last Edit: August 27, 2009, 12:24:57 PM by 41magsnub »

roo_ster

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Re: A Local Rocket Launch for Interested Northwest Folks
« Reply #49 on: August 27, 2009, 11:53:37 AM »
Here is a spring-launched tube with electrical torpedo for a RC sub:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbGdml7aB10&feature=related
Part one of four.
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