Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Hawkmoon on December 21, 2014, 08:03:18 PM
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What does the hive mind think about the decision to reestablish diplomatic relations with Cuba?
I'm sort of (well, pretty much) on the fence. I don't like the Communist regime at all, and even after all these years, our decision to reestablish diplomatic relations can (and undoubtedly will) be portrayed by the Castros as a win for them over the evil, imperialist United States. My brother-in-law in Sudamerica thinks it should not have happened until both Castros are under the ground, which he thinks will result in a movement back to democracy. I think I agree with that. Yet the Cuban-American population in North Havana (a.k.a. Miami) seems to be VERY unhappy about it.
On the other hand ... there's Russia, once again projecting its power and generally messing with other sovereign nations' sovereignty. Am I alone in thinking that this move by the U.S. could well be an attempt to blunt Russian influence in Cuba, with the aim of reducing the likelihood of a second Cuban missile crisis? I was in college when that went down. I can tell you that EVERYONE on our dorm floor was wide awake and glued to the radios and TVs while that was being played out. Whether you like or dislike JFK -- he didn't blink.
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What do I think???
Cigars and Tarpon fishing.
'effabuncha 90 y.o. commies, I'm going fishing.
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I'm not sure how I feel about it. On the one hand, what has the embargo accomplished? On the other, what would "normalizing" relations achieve to steer Cuba away from communism? The US isn't the only country in the world. The entire time our embargo has been going on, Cuba has been interacting with a whole bunch of other "free" countries. Europeans visit Cuba in vast numbers. As do Canadians (and a bunch of Americans via Canada). Cuba has had plenty of exposure to democracy over the years, but hasn't changed. I just don't know how the US now interacting with Cuba in a "friendly" way will make a difference one way or the other.
I'm not even that thrilled about the cigars. The best cigar makers took their leaf and left in the 50's.
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I'm not sure how I feel about it. On the one hand, what has the embargo accomplished? On the other, what would "normalizing" relations achieve to steer Cuba away from communism?
Further, why do we care what form of tyranny a country sports?
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Well when they shoot down planes in international airspace it's problematic. Especially when planes take off from Florida
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Meh... Its long over due.
But the news here is obsessed with opening up relations to get a fugitive from NJ that killed a trooper back in 1978 or something like that.
I had an argument with a coworker, just because the embargo gets dropped does not mean there going to honor extradition. Because I'm sure there are some Cubans here they would want back.
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No usually the Cubans are tickled pink to send their murderers here
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Since we are already doing business with China, I am not sure them being communist is the best reason to continue the embargo. there may be other good reasons.
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Opening up relations with Cuba benefits them more then it does us. There's nothing Cuba has that we want or need. (All the good cigars come from elsewhere. Communism and Castro has ruined the one major item other then sugar, that Cuba could export.)
And Castro can run around saying that it got the US to blink. Obama once again reduces the power and prestige of the US by his unilateral action (without, again consulting or even briefing Congress).
IIRC, there is even a US Laws that deal with Cuba, none of which seem to matter to Obama.
Helms–Burton Act and the Cuban Democracy Act: Neither of which the President can "change" and which has the following provision:
Several laws control the embargo. Among the most recent is the 1992 Cuban Democracy Act (codified in Chapter 69 of Title 22, U.S. Code). Section 6005 of the law outlines sanctions imposed against Cuba – the qualified blockade, prohibition on some financial transactions, and limitation on remittances.
But then there is Section 6007, the waiver provision. This tells us that, while it is true that it would require an act of Congress to repeal the restrictions on Cuba, no legislation is necessary to ignore the restrictions. The act empowers the president to do that on his own. All he needs to do is represent to Congress that the Cuban government
(1) has held free and fair elections conducted under internationally recognized observers;
(2) has permitted opposition parties ample time to organize and campaign for such elections, and has permitted full access to the media to all candidates in the elections;
(3) is showing respect for the basic civil liberties and human rights of the citizens of Cuba;
(4) is moving toward establishing a free market economic system; and
(5) has committed itself to constitutional change that would ensure regular free and fair elections that meet the requirements of paragraph (2).
From here: http://pjmedia.com/andrewmccarthy/2014/12/18/what-part-of-keeping-cuba-isolated-has-not-worked/
I think this sums up my feelings nicely:
https://pubsecrets.wordpress.com/2014/12/19/recognizing-cuba-what-do-we-get-out-of-the-deal/
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Opening up relations with Cuba benefits them more then it does us. There's nothing Cuba has that we want or need. (All the good cigars come from elsewhere. Communism and Castro has ruined the one major item other then sugar, that Cuba could export.)
And Castro can run around saying that it got the US to blink. Obama once again reduces the power and prestige of the US by his unilateral action (without, again consulting or even briefing Congress).
IIRC, there is even a US Laws that deal with Cuba, none of which seem to matter to Obama.
Helms–Burton Act and the Cuban Democracy Act: Neither of which the President can "change" and which has the following provision:
From here: http://pjmedia.com/andrewmccarthy/2014/12/18/what-part-of-keeping-cuba-isolated-has-not-worked/
I think this sums up my feelings nicely:
https://pubsecrets.wordpress.com/2014/12/19/recognizing-cuba-what-do-we-get-out-of-the-deal/
Whole bunch of 50's and 60's era cars.
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The embargo has reached the point of being...well...pointless.
50 years. And there are plenty of countries with normal relations with Cuba.
And the President's actions still face congressional oversight. They can choose to not build an embassy. They can choose to not lift or modify the embargo.
But I think it's time. Cuba is a mere 90 miles from us. Let's try something different, because what we've been doing isn't working.
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I believe the whole point of Obama normalizing relations with Cuba was to give the US a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. Anything that diminishes the US in the eyes of the world is a personal win to Obama, given how he actively dislikes this country.
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I believe the whole point of Obama normalizing relations with Cuba was to give the US a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.
That.
I'm sick of the meme that Cuba is poor and their citizens are hungry because the US is a big meanie who won't trade with them- the rest of the world can trade with them.
Cuba is a *expletive deleted*it heap because its run by communists.
The only thing that opening relations with Cuba will do will be to put another country onto our humanitarian welfare roles.
Its almost certain that there are plans to send billion$ to CUba on a yearly basis to bail their communist regime out.
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That.
I'm sick of the meme that Cuba is poor and their citizens are hungry because the US is a big meanie who won't trade with them- the rest of the world can trade with them.
Cuba is a *expletive deleted*it heap because its run by communists.
The only thing that opening relations with Cuba will do will be to put another country onto our humanitarian welfare roles.
Its almost certain that there are plans to send billion$ to CUba on a yearly basis to bail their communist regime out.
Oh I don't believe that they're poor because of us. I just don't believe that the current state of affairs is accomplishing anything.
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Oh I don't believe that they're poor because of us. I just don't believe that the current state of affairs is accomplishing anything.
What do you think of the idea that opening up relations with Cuba will only further enrich the ruling class and further entrench them in power?
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Since Obama is both a Communist and a Muslim, I am waiting for him to try to normalize relations with Iran next.
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If Cuba was an untapped economic goldmine, Europe and Central/South American interests would have exploited it already. Any investment will enrich the regime and military. Politically, this is a deliberate poke in the eye for the U.S., a short-term distraction, and sacrifices any leverage the embargo could have applied to greater freedom for the Cuban people. As I said in the other thread, more demonstration of American weakness and concession with no reciprocal gain.
Also interesting to note that in the effusive praise of Pope Francis for his mediation, I haven't heard any mention of the clergy murdered, executed, imprisoned, or exiled as a result of the Glorious People's Revolution. =|
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Also interesting to note that in the effusive praise of Pope Francis for his mediation, I haven't heard any mention of the clergy murdered, executed, imprisoned, or exiled as a result of the Glorious People's Revolution.
pope francis is cut from the same globalist cloth as obama. The Catholic Church is to Pope Francis as the the United States is to Obama- Western institutions that need to be marginalized and/or destroyed to meet their goals of bringing the populace down to the least common denominator around the world.
There are several Protestant/Evangelical 'christian' organizations who are going down the same path. The 'children' coming across the southern border are being aided and abetted by 'christian' organizations who are raking in millions (in some cases hundreds of millions) in federal aid to distribute and house these illegals around the country.
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But I think it's time. Cuba is a mere 90 miles from us. Let's try something different, because what we've been doing isn't working.
Define "working".
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Let's go dig up Meyer Lansky and his cronies, time for them to reopen Havana!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTRkFMrNjTk
Now time to find a cigarette boat and the chick from the Drambuie commercial.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ir_klWXm8oo&feature=player_embedded
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Further, why do we care what form of tyranny a country sports?
Dictators wingshooting at Cuba and points south do have? =D
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As others have pointed out the embargo is still in place. Obama is asking Congress to lift it, but the embargo is a law that he can't just EO away.
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As others have pointed out the embargo is still in place. Obama is asking Congress to lift it, but the embargo is a law that he can't just EO away.
You want to bet? Why would he bother letting that stop him.
ETA: Correct spelling
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You want to bet? Why would he both letting that stop him.
I'm with you. This is the most lawless administration in my lifetime.
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Since Obama is both a Communist and a Muslim, I am waiting for him to try to normalize relations with Iran next.
Do you seriously think Barack Obama cares one whit about Islam, Christianity, or any other religion?
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I'm torn on the issue. The US is the only country imposing any kind of sanctions on Cuba and yet it is still a communist shithole. I see lots of talk about all the old classic cars still running but no one mentions that there are many many non US auto makers that ostensibly have the ability to sell in Cuba but I'm thinking there might be a reason why they don't beyond the US embargo.
I don't think a change in US policies will have the dramatic OMG results so many seem to think will result.
I don't think Cuba will make much progress towards any kind of freedom while the Castro family is in charge. And, if Russia gets back in the picture even the death of the brothers won't do much.
I also wouldn't be surprised to see Obama making noise about not only closing Gitmo but surrendering it back to Cuba, intact.
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but no one mentions that there are many many non US auto makers that ostensibly have the ability to sell in Cuba but I'm thinking there might be a reason why they don't beyond the US embargo.
I think it may have even been a topic here, but I remember something about new cars, like from Japan, being available, but starting around the $50K US range. That's for something like a Corolla.
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I see lots of talk about all the old classic cars still running
Most of those are hacked together shitboxes.
Personally I don't think this is going to really change much. I'm not getting worked up about it.
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Do you seriously think Barack Obama cares one whit about Islam, Christianity, or any other religion?
I think MechAg was joking.
Obama isn't devoutly religious of course, but his cultural affiliations are certainly heavily influenced by Islam and his time in the Indonesian madrassa.
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Most of those are hacked together shitboxes.
Personally I don't think this is going to really change much. I'm not getting worked up about it.
If they weren't cobbled together shitboxes, someone else with a lot more money and resources will snatch them up and sell them for a premium at auction.
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I think MechAg was joking.
Obama isn't devoutly religious of course, but his cultural affiliations are certainly heavily influenced by Islam and his time in the Indonesian madrassa.
While that may play a small part, Obama wrote an entire book about "The Dreams of my Father", which is full of hero worship for his anti-colonial, Marxist father. I think that shows where his true beliefs lie.
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While that may play a small part, Obama wrote an entire book about "The Dreams of my Father", which is full of hero worship for his anti-colonial, Marxist father. I think that shows where his true beliefs lie.
There's a difference between one's belief system and cultural influences. They're separate things that affect your life in different ways.
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I'm with Scout on this one.
Obama exists in a nexus between post modernism and Marxism.
Personally I think he is a pretty confused dude due to the above rather than evil; other than the evil that is pretty banal.
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My opinion: Keeping the Embargo going at this point makes the USA look dumb. 'blinked first'? We ran it 40+ years! If anything, Castro stepping down/dying is an opportunity to say it was about Castro, not Cuba.
Sure, his brother taking over isn't great, but how much longer is he likely to last?
End the Embargo, get to be in the position the USSR/Venezuela once held, IE major source of funding, and we'll have more control over the regime.
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Another fantasy? Are you aware of what the Cubans have come out and said since Obama backed up,to em and said not too deep be gentle?
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End the Embargo, get to be in the position the USSR/Venezuela once held, IE major source of funding, and we'll have more control over the regime.
BBBBBBBBbbbbbbbbwwwwwwwwwwwwhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaahahahhahahahahhahahahahahahhaha
Seriously?!??! You really believe that ?!?!?!?!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA
No seriously, Cuba was about to fall over because the Soviets stopped propping them up shortly after the Wall fell. Venezuela has been infusing them with cash, but ever before oil prices collapsed, they had to cut back their subsidies because of their internal issues (socialism always to have them in spades).
So Cuba's (and the Castro's) sources of hard currency were drying up, to the point that regime could not and would not be able to prop itself up anymore, but Obama swoops in and with this move will save the Castro's from them selves and their failed socialist system. Now was the time not to end the embargo, but to double down on it. The cracks would have quickly appeared and then the entire rotten edifice would have collapsed. But nope, Obama hater of all things colonial and lover of all things Marxist cannot allow the grand socialist revolution of Cuba to fail. What would his father think.
As an aside, while he did attend an Islamic school in Indonesia, I think that they Marxist aspect of his belief system is much more dominate then his "religious" side. While he has empathy for Islam (and Muslim states), he's much more of socialist/Marxist then Muslim. Hell, all you have to do is read his books to learn that. There is also the movie 2016 which I highly recommend. Dinesh D'Souza does a great job of dissecting Obama's two autobiographies.
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End the Embargo, get to be in the position the USSR/Venezuela once held, IE major source of funding, and we'll have more control over the regime.
BBBBBBBBbbbbbbbbwwwwwwwwwwwwhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaahahahhahahahahhahahahahahahhaha
Seriously?!??! You really believe that ?!?!?!?!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA
No seriously, Cuba was about to fall over because the Soviets stopped propping them up shortly after the Wall fell. Venezuela has been infusing them with cash, but even before oil prices collapsed, they had to cut back their subsidies because of their internal issues (socialism always seems to have them in spades).
So Cuba's (and the Castro's) sources of hard currency were drying up, to the point that regime could not and would not be able to prop itself up anymore, but Obama swoops in and with this move will save the Castros from themselves and their failed socialist system. Now was the time not to end the embargo, but to double down on it. The cracks would have quickly appeared and then the entire rotten edifice would have collapsed. But nope, Obama hater of all things colonial and lover of all things Marxist cannot allow the grand socialist revolution of Cuba to fail. What would his father think!!
As an aside, while he did attend an Islamic school in Indonesia, I think that the Marxist aspect of his belief system is much more dominate then his "religious" side. While he has empathy for Islam (and Muslim states), he's much more of socialist/Marxist then Muslim. Hell, all you have to do is read his books to learn that. There is also the movie 2016 which I highly recommend. Dinesh D'Souza does a great job of dissecting Obama's two autobiographies to get to what drives him and what he believes.
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Obama has a lot invested in keeping the last socialist utopia breathing
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BBBBBBBBbbbbbbbbwwwwwwwwwwwwhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaahahahhahahahahhahahahahahahhaha
This isn't a refutation. Additionally, you might be taking it the wrong way.
So Cuba's (and the Castro's) sources of hard currency were drying up, to the point that regime could not and would not be able to prop itself up anymore, but Obama swoops in and with this move will save the Castro's from them selves and their failed socialist system. Now was the time not to end the embargo, but to double down on it. The cracks would have quickly appeared and then the entire rotten edifice would have collapsed. But nope, Obama hater of all things colonial and lover of all things Marxist cannot allow the grand socialist revolution of Cuba to fail. What would his father think.
We're not 'saving the Castros'. While helping them is inevitable, they're already well off enough that they're not going anywhere anytime soon. We don't want Cuba to collapse into anarchy.
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Look how well it's already working and helping the people
http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2014/12/23/cuban-government-sinks-boat-carrying-32-refugees-including-children/
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Look how well it's already working and helping the people
http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2014/12/23/cuban-government-sinks-boat-carrying-32-refugees-including-children/
Look at it this way: Without the loosening, there's nothing short of threatening letters or military action we could use to protest this. Now, and I'm not saying Obama can do it, he could delay the opening an appropriate amount of time in response.
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Rofl...... Wait you actually believe that?
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Rofl...... Wait you actually believe that?
Yes. Again, your laughter is not a refutation. I am against my government doing useless things, because useless things still cost money, and since they're useless said things are worthless, ergo a waste of money. The embargo had long proven itself to be useless. We deal with lots of countries worse than Cuba. That we have relations with them means that putting up sanctions actually have a benefit. See how Russia's hurting under it's sanctions.
The 'problem' is that Cuba has adapted to not having access to US Markets and such. Restore that, let them get used to it, and the threat of sanctions might actually do something.
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You claim to be against wasting money.... What does the embargo cost us vs the cost of Obama backing up to the Castro's and saying sweetly " don't stick,it in too deep too fast comrade"
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You claim to be against wasting money.... What does the embargo cost us vs the cost of Obama backing up to the Castro's and saying sweetly " don't stick,it in too deep too fast comrade"
What Obama does in the bedroom is his business. It doesn't matter until he starts backing it up with US money, which he's currently forbidden by congress to do. Obama's control of the purse strings is actually pretty limited.
I think you're letting your hatred of Obama blind you. He could say the sky's blue and you'd try to disagree. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. That doesn't mean that I agree with Obama's motivations for doing what he's doing. Just that I, for quite different reasons, think that he's doing the right thing in this case.
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You got it wrong. I hate the Castro's more than obama
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So what's the embargo cost us again?
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So what's the embargo cost us again?
Cuba shipping us it's criminals, inability to trade for cigars(before they ruined their tobacco), various fresh fruits & vegetables, all the other miscellaneous trading opportunities. Not to mention the realistic ability to influence their actions.
Gripping hand - by banning 'everything' we lost all control.
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The embargo caused cuba to send us it's criminals? Really?!?
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The embargo Castro caused cuba to send us it's criminals? Really?!?
There, FIXED. Merry Christmas! ;)
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Cuba shipping us it's criminals, inability to trade for cigars(before they ruined their tobacco), various fresh fruits & vegetables, all the other miscellaneous trading opportunities. Not to mention the realistic ability to influence their actions.
Gripping hand - by banning 'everything' we lost all control.
All of which by freely trading with other countries that don't rely on (practically) slave labor to produce.
We won't be trading with the Cuban people, we'll be trading with the Castros. The Cuban people will see nothing from their work.
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This will benefit the castros and no one else. It will also cost us money the same that haiti costs us money. Once again the american taxpayer takes it hard.
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Well when they shoot down planes in international airspace it's problematic. Especially when planes take off from Florida
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Except when those planes have repeatedly violated Cuba's airspace.
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Where were they when they were shot down?
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Where were they when they were shot down?
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One was in Cuban airspace. One had just exited. They reaped what they sowed.
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You sure about that?
http://miami.cbslocal.com/2009/11/29/i-team-docs-show-cuban-shoot-down-was-expected/
http://articles.latimes.com/1996-02-26/news/mn-40307_1_cuban-government
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You sure about that?
http://miami.cbslocal.com/2009/11/29/i-team-docs-show-cuban-shoot-down-was-expected/
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I stand corrected. One did enter Cuban airspace but was not engaged.
I stand by my statement that they got what they deserved.
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Shooting down unarmed planes is a bozo no no isn't it?
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Shooting down unarmed planes is a bozo no no isn't it?
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Maybe in some countries. Cuba might have other ideas.
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Isn't there some pesky international,law or sumpin?
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Well when they shoot down planes in international airspace it's problematic. Especially when planes take off from Florida
Except when those planes have repeatedly violated Cuba's airspace.
Are you excusing Cuba for murdering civilians?
During the Cold War, the Soviets would periodically invade American airspace with Tupelov
"Bear" bombers. We would respond by sending up ANG or USAF interceptor jets and offering them a pleasant, nice warm escort out of American airspace. We did not shoot down their military aircraft.
The Soviets OTOH took a slightly different attitude. Ask Francis Gary Powers.
And the Cubans are cut from the same cloth.
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The embargo caused cuba to send us it's criminals? Really?!?
Can't track the line of logic? That's fine:
By having literally 'nothing' to do with Cuba, to the point that the only escalation we could conduct is an invasion with US military personnel(we already tried with expat Cubans), they have nothing to lose. Are we going to invade over some criminals? No. Ergo no cost to them.
By making it so that the USA can cost Cuba 'something more', we gain more influence over their actions. I'm not going to be stupid enough to say that it would provide us anything near 'full control'.
All of which by freely trading with other countries that don't rely on (practically) slave labor to produce.
Where do we get most of our consumer crap from again? China? How often are they busted for using slave labor? How much of our clothing doesn't come from a sweat-shop? The road to 'better' is a long and rocky path.
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I think you are applying your ethos to the situation and naively thinking the Castro's use a similar one. the recent incident with the boat and a thousand other barbaric events show that to be delusion and folly.
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I think you are applying your ethos to the situation and naively thinking the Castro's use a similar one. the recent incident with the boat and a thousand other barbaric events show that to be delusion and folly.
I think you're attacking a strawman. I have never tried to imply that the Castros think like me. I never stated that they'd stop with the barbaric events, especially immediately. I've never said that 'reforming' Cuba would be anything but a long hard road.
In order to effect change, you have to have influence. In order to build influence, you have to have interaction. We have 'no' interaction with Cuba or the Castros(other than dozens of assassination attempts back in the day, making us a joke), which eliminates our influence.
Note that I'm staying away from using the word 'control' because that would be too strong for this situation. We would control Cuba about like our controlling North Korea. But we would have influence.
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Here's what someone with skin in the game says
https://fredericksburg-dot-com.bloxcms.com/news/world/d-tente-spawns-cuban-worry/article_2a040dd1-100a-5620-8c55-6403f86b2d0e.html?mode=jqm
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Another person close to the scene weighs in
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/21/world/americas/castro-thanks-us-but-affirms-cubas-communist-rule.html?_r=1
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possible upside: http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2011/12/02/russia-plans-ak-47-ammo-factory-in-cuba/?intcmp=obinsite (http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2011/12/02/russia-plans-ak-47-ammo-factory-in-cuba/?intcmp=obinsite)
fixed the link
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CSD: My response to that: Free trade has been the biggest motivator for moving China away from communism(not that it's anywhere near a democracy yet). Why would Cuba be different, other than in timeline? I've already said it'd be a long hard road.
North Korea keeps trade barriers up for a reason. Without those the Kims would already be out of power.
BTW, why double post?
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Heres a pretty good article on the embargo.
http://dailycaller.com/2014/12/18/the-cuban-embargo-was-never-meant-to-cause-regime-change/
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Except when those planes have repeatedly violated Cuba's airspace.
Are you excusing Cuba for murdering civilians?
During the Cold War, the Soviets would periodically invade American airspace with Tupelov
"Bear" bombers. We would respond by sending up ANG or USAF interceptor jets and offering them a pleasant, nice warm escort out of American airspace. We did not shoot down their military aircraft.
The Soviets OTOH took a slightly different attitude. Ask Francis Gary Powers.
And the Cubans are cut from the same cloth.
I'm excusing Cuba for shooting down aircraft that repeatedly violated Cuba's sovereign airspace even after repeated warnings.
Just because the US chose not to shoot down the "Bears" doesn't mean the US didn't have the right to do it. The USSR shot down that U2 because it was flying deep into Soviet airspace and spying on the Soviets.
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CSD: My response to that: Free trade has been the biggest motivator for moving China away from communism(not that it's anywhere near a democracy yet). Why would Cuba be different, other than in timeline? I've already said it'd be a long hard road.
Not CSD, but as I mentioned in my post, just because the US isn't trading with them doesn't mean other countries aren't, and it doesn't seem to have had an effect, at least from what I can see) so I'm not sure how the US now trading with them will change anything when dozens of free countries who will trade with them hasn't seemed to have changed anything. That seems to be tied to who's running the country.
Again, I'm still unsure about the whole thing, but this always seems to be discussed as if the the only trade Cuba has or has had, is with the US, and discussions seem to take place as if the US and Cuba are the only two countries in the world.
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I'm excusing Cuba for shooting down aircraft that repeatedly violated Cuba's sovereign airspace even after repeated warnings.
Just because the US chose not to shoot down the "Bears" doesn't mean the US didn't have the right to do it. The USSR shot down that U2 because it was flying deep into Soviet airspace and spying on the Soviets.
So....you think it's OK to shoot down unarmed civie Cessna 172s and murder the occupants? That's what it is. :O
The U.S. pilots responding to the Soviet Tupelovs didn't "choose to," they were following orders in compliance with U.S. and International laws.
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And if you are gonna shoot em down you should do it when they actually are in Cuban airspace. Clinton pulled a Kennedy at the bay of pigs on that one by letting the Cubans chase the last plane so close to us.
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Not CSD, but as I mentioned in my post, just because the US isn't trading with them doesn't mean other countries aren't, and it doesn't seem to have had an effect, at least from what I can see) so I'm not sure how the US now trading with them will change anything when dozens of free countries who will trade with them hasn't seemed to have changed anything. That seems to be tied to who's running the country.
What other free countries are trading with them? Venezuela? My point is that us trading with them would be 'one more', and we'd probably end up being a huge trading partner with them. It would gain the USA influence over them.
Again, I'm still unsure about the whole thing, but this always seems to be discussed as if the the only trade Cuba has or has had, is with the US, and discussions seem to take place as if the US and Cuba are the only two countries in the world.
How many countries other than the USA are interested in regime change there at this point?
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CSD: My response to that: Free trade has been the biggest motivator for moving China away from communism(not that it's anywhere near a democracy yet). Why would Cuba be different, other than in timeline? I've already said it'd be a long hard road.
North Korea keeps trade barriers up for a reason. Without those the Kims would already be out of power.
BTW, why double post?
Took me a while to respond due to the laugher induced hernia i got after reading how free trade with china was responsible for their somewhat less savage disposition toward their citizenry and foreign countries.
Cargo cult diplomacy and economics ftw.
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So....you think it's OK to shoot down unarmed civie Cessna 172s and murder the occupants? That's what it is. :O
The U.S. pilots responding to the Soviet Tupelovs didn't "choose to," they were following orders in compliance with U.S. and International laws.
Yes, when those aircraft illegally penetrate Cuban airspace.
The US still had the legal option to shoot down the Bears, just like Russia did to the U2.
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You got it wrong. I hate the Castro's more than obama
I believe you. But it's interesting that Castro rated a capital letter and obama didn't.
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One of them can say they actually worked for a living once. I can respect that
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One of them can say they actually worked for a living once. I can respect that
:laugh:
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Yes, when those aircraft illegally penetrate Cuban airspace.
The US still had the legal option to shoot down the Bears, just like Russia did to the U2.
:facepalm:
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And if you are gonna shoot em down you should do it when they actually are in Cuban airspace. Clinton pulled a Kennedy at the bay of pigs on that one by letting the Cubans chase the last plane so close to us.
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Fly320, you might want to go back to the drawingboard ;)
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Clinton sent a message when he didn't even scramble in response to the Cubans chasing a us registered flight that close to the us. No gonads. He probably needed a focus group first.
If those 2 mags had been fireballs that woulda been just fine. But totally outa character
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:facepalm:
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Fly320, you might want to go back to the drawingboard ;)
Those aircraft illegally penetrated Cuban airspace on numerous occasions. They were officially warned by Cuba and the US State department to stop. They didn't stop. The leader, Jose Basulto, was warned on the day of his last flight that Cuba knew he was coming and that Cuba planned to shoot them down. Basulto chose to go anyway.
How many warnings does Cuba have to give?
This is Cuba we are talking about. Do we really expect them to act in the same manner that the US would act?
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This is Cuba we are talking about. Do we really expect them to act in the same manner that the US would act?
I expect human beings to not commit murder. Period.
This isn't about "how many warnings" they get. The state Dept. didn't issue warnings because they approve of murder, they did so because they were pretty sure the Cubans were capable of commiting murder.
Please note what cassandra and sara's daddy said on December 26, 2014, 06:56:37. On atleast 1 occasion the plane was shot down outside Cuban airspace.
Clinton messed up .... atleast that time no blue dresses were involved.
The MiGs involved should have been interdicted and splashed by U.S. F-15 or F-16 fighters.
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Pretty much the Cubans decided they were gonna shoot em down. They shot 2 down outside their airspace and tried for a third while wjc had his thumb up his tail
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I expect human beings to not commit murder. Period.
How's that working out for ya?
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How's that working out for ya?
Don't be childish, I know very well that people (and governments) commit murder.