Author Topic: Newtown families suing Bushmaster, disributor, seller  (Read 10646 times)

TommyGunn

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Re: Newtown families suing Bushmaster, disributor, seller
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2014, 12:43:40 PM »
Sorry, but I've never seen conclusive proof that you're not just an advanced version of Eliza controlled by the same government that wants us to believe Connecticut exists.
Put him on the case,  he'll find the truth -- it's out there!  
« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 12:51:49 PM by TommyGunn »
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T.O.M.

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Re: Newtown families suing Bushmaster, disributor, seller
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2014, 04:08:07 PM »
http://www.wsj.com/articles/sandy-hook-families-file-lawsuit-against-gun-manufacturer-1418651798

Behind a paywall, but the article says the plaintiffs are proceeding under the 'negligent entrustment' exception of the Act.  They argue that by selling assault rifles to the general public, manufacturers and sellers are then liable for any harm that arises out of the use of that rifle.  It will be a stretch to argue that 'negligent entrustment' applies to the general public rather than a specific individual.

Just though this argument through.  If they make this argument, they will try to argue it is a question of fact, not of law, to take the decision out of the hands of the judge and place it in the hands of a jury.  If they can do this successfully, they can try an emotional argument with the jury, and try to get a win on feelings instead of facts.  This would encourage others to file suit, and again, try to bankrupt the firearm industry.
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T.O.M.

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Re: Newtown families suing Bushmaster, disributor, seller
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2014, 04:11:04 PM »
All their should to do is file an Affirmative defense under the PLCAA and it should go away.  Unless the find an activist judge.

Anymore, you don't need an activist judge as much.  More and more, judges are being reversed on appeal, and even disciplined, for granting summary judgment motions and dismissing cases without letting parties argue cases to juries.  If they can successfully argue that this is a question of fact, not law, then each case would be headed to a jury trial.  This would encourage more suits, and sudden;y we're headed towards the bankruptcy of the firearms industry in America.
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Angel Eyes

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Re: Newtown families suing Bushmaster, disributor, seller
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2014, 04:18:19 PM »

For the benefit of us STEM guys, could you explain what you mean by "a question of fact, not law"?


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Balog

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Re: Newtown families suing Bushmaster, disributor, seller
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2014, 04:33:31 PM »
For the benefit of us STEM guys, could you explain what you mean by "a question of fact, not law"?




My understanding is that means that the judge has decided that the law applies to the case at hand and the only question is whether or not the defendant did it. IANAL etc
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T.O.M.

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Re: Newtown families suing Bushmaster, disributor, seller
« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2014, 07:12:41 PM »
In general, a question of law is left to the judge to decide.  Questions of fact are left to the trier of fact, which is most often a jury.  For example, if a person is being sued for a car crash at an intersection.  Whether the light was red or green is a question of fact, for a jury to decide.  Whether the law requires a person to yield to cross traffic is a question of law, left to the judge to decide.

In this situation, I'm afraid that the lawyers will argue that ARs are inherently too dangerous a product to put in the public possession, so the company is liable from a product liability perspective.  Company lawyers will argue that there is no question of fact, and the law supports dismissal, citing to the protection law.  Defense will argue back that it is a question of fact if ARs arw too dangerous for public use, so the jury must make that decision.  The question may come down to the courage of the judge...will he take a stand against the case, callnit a legal issue, and throw it out.  Or will the judge take the easy way out, let a jury make the call, and avoid any political angle on a gun issue...
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Ron

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Re: Newtown families suing Bushmaster, disributor, seller
« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2014, 11:15:18 PM »
Jury nullification = double edged sword

If jury nullification is legitimate then the argument can be made this tactic is legitimate.

We like to give the jury the ability to decide law when it works for us, here a jury deciding law could work against us.

For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

Balog

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Re: Newtown families suing Bushmaster, disributor, seller
« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2014, 12:01:09 AM »
I was ordering some Aero lowers, this thread decided me to change one of them to the cheap Bushmaster one linked above.
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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

T.O.M.

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Re: Newtown families suing Bushmaster, disributor, seller
« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2014, 07:19:53 AM »
Jury nullification = double edged sword

If jury nullification is legitimate then the argument can be made this tactic is legitimate.

We like to give the jury the ability to decide law when it works for us, here a jury deciding law could work against us.



The blessing and curse of the jury system.  We want a jury to have the freedom to make a decision, right up to the point where we disagree with the decision they make.

Jury selection would be huge. Plaintiffs will try to eliminate anyone with 2A beliefs for cause, while defendant will try to keep gun owners/shooters.  Political ideology will likely have an impact as well.   
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MechAg94

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Re: Newtown families suing Bushmaster, disributor, seller
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2014, 09:28:11 AM »
With criminal trials we ask the jury a binary solution set.  Do we really do that in civil trials?  Do they always do percentage liability findings or is that only in some cases? 
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MillCreek

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Re: Newtown families suing Bushmaster, disributor, seller
« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2014, 10:16:24 AM »
With criminal trials we ask the jury a binary solution set.  Do we really do that in civil trials?  Do they always do percentage liability findings or is that only in some cases? 

Civil liability trials are generally yes/no: yes, the defendant is liable and here are some money damages for the plaintiff; or no, the defendant is not liable and the plaintiff gets nothing. 
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T.O.M.

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Re: Newtown families suing Bushmaster, disributor, seller
« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2014, 06:38:56 PM »
With criminal trials we ask the jury a binary solution set.  Do we really do that in civil trials?  Do they always do percentage liability findings or is that only in some cases? 

Different states have different laws on this.  Don't know Mass. law.
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Balog

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Re: Newtown families suing Bushmaster, disributor, seller
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2014, 07:48:45 PM »
The blessing and curse of the jury system.  We want a jury to have the freedom to make a decision, right up to the point where we disagree with the decision they make.
 

We want the jury to be able to not punish people for violating unjust laws. We do not want juries to be able to punish people because they dislike them, even if no law has been broken.

Also, http://bearingarms.com/sandy-hook-families-lawsuit-bushmaster-will-fail-heres/
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T.O.M.

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Re: Newtown families suing Bushmaster, disributor, seller
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2014, 10:42:04 PM »
We want the jury to be able to not punish people for violating unjust laws. We do not want juries to be able to punish people because they dislike them, even if no law has been broken.

Also, http://bearingarms.com/sandy-hook-families-lawsuit-bushmaster-will-fail-heres/

I hope that article is right.  Just worried...  (still saving for my AR, and don't want to see the crazy high prices again.)
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Balog

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Re: Newtown families suing Bushmaster, disributor, seller
« Reply #39 on: December 19, 2014, 12:06:39 PM »
I hope that article is right.  Just worried...  (still saving for my AR, and don't want to see the crazy high prices again.)

You can always get a lower or two now, that's the only serial numbered part that they can effectively ban.

http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=F1BUSHSL&name=Bushmaster+Firearms+.223%2f5.56+Lower+Receiver&search=bushmaster
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

T.O.M.

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Re: Newtown families suing Bushmaster, disributor, seller
« Reply #40 on: December 19, 2014, 07:01:44 PM »
You can always get a lower or two now, that's the only serial numbered part that they can effectively ban.

http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=F1BUSHSL&name=Bushmaster+Firearms+.223%2f5.56+Lower+Receiver&search=bushmaster

Might go that route after Christmas, but I sure would rather get a working rifle all at once...
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Chuck Dye

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Re: Newtown families suing Bushmaster, disributor, seller
« Reply #41 on: December 19, 2014, 10:02:55 PM »
Why would a lawyer bother to take on a case like this at this point, when it will almost certainly be smacked down due to the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act?

That a lawyer did take the case suggests to me that it is neither a contingency fee job nor pro bono.  Regardless of whether the suit is won or lost, the shyster lawyer gets paid.
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Waitone

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Re: Newtown families suing Bushmaster, disributor, seller
« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2014, 12:26:31 PM »
One of the reasons capital cases are few and far between is that as soon as an announcement is made of a capital murder trial money starts flowing in to defend the defendant.  More money means better and mores expensive defense counsel.  Prosecution can't allow its litigators to be out qualified so the state has to up the ante and hire better and more expensive help.  An arms race of sorts.  Not positive but I suspect a similar situation arises when a high profile second amendment case show up.
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KD5NRH

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Re: Newtown families suing Bushmaster, disributor, seller
« Reply #43 on: December 22, 2014, 12:05:06 PM »
Might go that route after Christmas, but I sure would rather get a working rifle all at once...

Here you go, nice cheap AR in great condition:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=459272273

 =D

Harold Tuttle

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Re: Newtown families suing Bushmaster, disributor, seller
« Reply #44 on: December 26, 2014, 06:45:36 AM »
Evidence pictures show a Windam ME bushmaster, not an Ilion NY bushmaster


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