Author Topic: Getting silly with energy savings...  (Read 11676 times)

drewtam

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,985
Re: Getting silly with energy savings...
« Reply #50 on: March 01, 2009, 11:01:24 PM »
Yeah, a standby would be too stressed. A prime power is probably more correct. At the link I gave, go to the "Cat Brand Generator Sets Rating Guide" and on page 10 of the pdf there is a description of gen-set rating types.

Reciprocating piston engines, generally, are more thermally efficient. Gas Turbines are more compact; they can only achieve greater efficiency by using a combined cycle where steam is used as a bottom cycle recovering the heat from the turbine's exhaust stream. As a combined cycle, they become much more expensive.

The diesel cycle depends on the compression of the fluid to ignite fuel as it is injected. Compressing a fluid greatly increases its temp to make conditions right for ignition. Low weight hydrocarbons (gasolines down to NG) at these conditions would cause detonation. Heavy weight hydrocarbons, like diesel up to heavy oil, burn more slowly and more controlled.

Diesel engines in gensets are often offered in NG versions. (In simplified explanation) This is done by lowering the compression ratio and changing to a carburatted intake air (in other words, fuel injected into the intake of the engine rather than direct injection near TDC in a diesel.) The diesel injector is then replaced with a spark plug. Converting a diesel down to a NG version is great because NG has less energy; which means less stress, less heat load, and also has no heavy soot load.
I’m not saying I invented the turtleneck. But I was the first person to realize its potential as a tactical garment. The tactical turtleneck! The… tactleneck!

Nick1911

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,492
Re: Getting silly with energy savings...
« Reply #51 on: March 01, 2009, 11:11:15 PM »
So, basically the NG kit converts the diesel into an otto cycle engine?

Clever.  In this application the lower end is vastly overbuilt for the operating conditions, leading to long life.

Wonder if that can be done with a Lister CS...

Firethorn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,789
  • Where'd my explosive space modulator go?
Re: Getting silly with energy savings...
« Reply #52 on: March 02, 2009, 02:07:49 PM »
Yeah, a standby would be too stressed. A prime power is probably more correct. At the link I gave, go to the "Cat Brand Generator Sets Rating Guide" and on page 10 of the pdf there is a description of gen-set rating types.

Looking at their liturature, there's not really any difference between a standby and a primary power one.  You just multiply the standby rating by .7 to figure out it's primary capacity.

IE you have an average 10kw load.  For a standby generator, you'd want a 14.3kw standby generator(70% average load).  For primary power, you'd want a 14.3kw generator that would, in the standby mode, be 20.4kw. 

Quote
The diesel cycle depends on the compression of the fluid to ignite fuel as it is injected. Compressing a fluid greatly increases its temp to make conditions right for ignition. Low weight hydrocarbons (gasolines down to NG) at these conditions would cause detonation. Heavy weight hydrocarbons, like diesel up to heavy oil, burn more slowly and more controlled.

You can feed a diesel pretty much anything with the proper settings, and without converting it to an otto cycle with spark plugs.  They do it to buses and trucks all the time.
Diesel to natural gas conversion
Dual fuel usage
Hmm...  Both are mixed fuel, up to 90% NG, but still use diesel.

drewtam

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,985
Re: Getting silly with energy savings...
« Reply #53 on: March 02, 2009, 08:47:04 PM »
You can feed a diesel pretty much anything with the proper settings, and without converting it to an otto cycle with spark plugs.  They do it to buses and trucks all the time.
Diesel to natural gas conversion
Dual fuel usage
Hmm...  Both are mixed fuel, up to 90% NG, but still use diesel.

Those are otto cycles. Fumigated NG = carburatted NG = fuel injected NG. The NG/propane/etc is fumigated into the intake stroke, and is ignited at ~TDC of compression stroke by a small injection of diesel. The diesel injector is used as a very expensive spark plug. Care must still be taken to reduce compression ratio or reduce peak boost pressure to prevent detonation issues. Also, care must be taken to reduce the injector tip's temperature to prevent pre-ignition. --- But now that I think about it, that shouldn't be an issue since Propane & NG have less energy content and should lower peak temps. Besides, the combustion process won't happen at the tip like in typical diesel performance.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2009, 08:52:36 PM by drewtam »
I’m not saying I invented the turtleneck. But I was the first person to realize its potential as a tactical garment. The tactical turtleneck! The… tactleneck!

txgho1911

  • friends
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 228
  • sedition hammer
Re: Getting silly with energy savings...
« Reply #54 on: March 02, 2009, 10:26:04 PM »
So the solar shingles and carbon nanotube storage are not in this thread?
socialnewswatchDOTcom instead of Drudge

Gewehr98

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 11,010
  • Yee-haa!
    • Neural Misfires (Blog)
Re: Getting silly with energy savings...
« Reply #55 on: March 03, 2009, 12:29:29 AM »
I've seen either GE or EMD running their big demonstrator locomotives on LPG, so that's an emerging technology viable for diesel applications.

Granted, you have to keep the propane liquified, but there's a lot of LPG on trailers on the highways these days, too.
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

http://neuralmisfires.blogspot.com

"Never squat with your spurs on!"

Firethorn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,789
  • Where'd my explosive space modulator go?
Re: Getting silly with energy savings...
« Reply #56 on: March 03, 2009, 09:38:32 AM »
So the solar shingles and carbon nanotube storage are not in this thread?

Not yet, please, let us know more.  This is/was intended to be something of a brainstorming session.

Oh -and a while back on thermal mass and the inside/outside the insulation envelope?

Inside the insulation is good, and designing a house with a southern exposure with the right type of thermal glass to heat a mass during the day to provide heat at night is a good idea, but the thermal mass is still inside the insulation.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 09:43:00 AM by Firethorn »