Penn State Gets What It Had Coming

[Fitz]

I mostly agree with ArfinGreebly...lot's of valid points.  However, it does send a message to every institution that crap like this will result in severe penalties to the whole institution, and that the whole institution (every/any institution) will pay a price for turning a blind eye to moral, ethical, and legal issues. 

I agree, but I wonder how many innocent folks will be adversely affected by the punishment.

I think it'll work. I think it sends a message.

I guess the crux of my feelings on the issue is that I simply feel bad for those who didn't do anything wrong :-S

[ArfinGreebly]

Can i steal this word for word for another forum?

Sure.

If you feel it has value, by all means use it.

Attribution would be nice, but I'm not a big stickler for that.

[Fitz]

Sure.

If you feel it has value, by all means use it.

Attribution would be nice, but I'm not a big stickler for that.

I'd prefer to be vague (i.e., a guy from another board I frequent) because there's a good contingent of antis on this particular board and I don't want them snooping around.

However you'd like it attributed though, let me know. It's a pretty good summation of how I feel on it.

[ArfinGreebly]

I'd prefer to be vague (i.e., a guy from another board I frequent) because there's a good contingent of antis on this particular board and I don't want them snooping around.

However you'd like it attributed though, let me know. It's a pretty good summation of how I feel on it.

Nah.  Don't need to draw in the trolls.

Your take is just fine.

[De Selby]

It might even be the case that an abused child will lose a scholarship because of this, or that the trauma of having the whole program attacked will only make things worse for many of the victims.

Way to go - scorched earth makes us feel good, and that's what matters most 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Scorched earth? Hyperbole much? They got off light and if they had done the right thibg coulda avoided it all.

[HankB]

In my opinion, every last individual who knew about the child molesting but failed to call the police ought to be criminally prosecuted as an accessory - part of a cover-up, with possible conspiracy charges thrown in - and face serious fines and jail time. This is a matter for law enforcement, and ought to be prosecuted vigorously.

The administrators who hired & managed such people ought to be gone - fired, with no golden parachute - and banned from all other academic positions. THIS is where the NCAA should be playing; go after the people involved, and see to it that they NEVER have a position at another NCAA institution again.

Fining the institution, removing more than a decade's worth of victories, imposing additional sanctions without following the usual procedures . . . that just seems a bit "off" to me. (Hmmm - when removing the victories, does that mean that the QB's who won those games now have to update their college ball stats to show nothing but losses?)

[Balog]

It might even be the case that an abused child will lose a scholarship because of this, or that the trauma of having the whole program attacked will only make things worse for many of the victims.

Way to go - scorched earth makes us feel good, and that's what matters most 

I thought your first sentence was sarcastic, and I was like 

Then I realized you were serious and I was like     

[RevDisk]

My objection is not to "punishing institutions" per se, because there are such things as evil institutions.

My objection is to punishing an institution -- made up largely of people who are not culpable -- while failing to punish those who are culpable.

Sixty million bucks?  Who's paying that?  The people who committed these crimes?  Not likely.  Who suffers when the university is stripped of its victories and banned from bowl games?  The perpetrators?  Well, no.

You want to punish the "institution?"  I have no beef with that so long as your punishment reaches the actual perpetrators.

Everyone is dancing around and cheering this decision as though it constitutes justice.

I'd really like to see a list of the people who actually committed this atrocity, along with a list of how the punishment directly affects each of them.

I can accept a certain level of collateral damage, but the collateral damage without an actual hit on target is kinda pointless, wouldn't you think?

The perps are already getting slowly put in front of the legal system. PA has been rocked by a good number of scandals relating to inappropriate conduct by our legal system, so this will be interesting.

PSU has been fostering an environment of sports trumping the legal system for a very long time. It's far from the only place. Even my podunk university tried to do the same thing. Even my HS looked the other way, and after Columbine was terrified that sports players could possibly be given retribution for their actions. Personally, I could always care less if the masses view sports as being even more important than religion. Tis their right to worship as they please. Until they believe their worship trumps the rule of law and other folks' rights. 

The institution promoted the climate of absolute right of the sports programs. The institution promoted a high level of unaccountability in their sports programs. The institution certainly did not turn down the checks from the sports programs. The institution directly profited from this, everyone up and down the line knowing to STFU. Even janitors knew, and knew not to say anything because at a minimum they'd be fired. 

Also, more than a couple people heard of Ray Gricar and thought best to leave some stones unturned.

[MechAg94]

I agree, but I wonder how many innocent folks will be adversely affected by the punishment.

I think it'll work. I think it sends a message.

I guess the crux of my feelings on the issue is that I simply feel bad for those who didn't do anything wrong :-S

There are always "innocents" affected by these punishments, but that is nothing new.  I have no problem with the punishment.  IMO, the school should go a bit further with the athletic program management and school management who may have known about it.

When I was a student at A&M, we got punished with scholarship reductions and no TV for a year because one rich booster in Dallas who hired athletes for summer jobs was paying them for days they didn't show up.  No one at the school even knew it was going on.  That didn't stop the NCAA from slapping penalties on that affected everyone. 

[lupinus]

I agree, but I wonder how many innocent folks will be adversely affected by the punishment.

I think it'll work. I think it sends a message.

I guess the crux of my feelings on the issue is that I simply feel bad for those who didn't do anything wrong :-S

I can feel bad for them, but that's on the school not the NCAA.

[Sergeant Bob]

The perps are already getting slowly put in front of the legal system. PA has been rocked by a good number of scandals relating to inappropriate conduct by our legal system, so this will be interesting.

PSU has been fostering an environment of sports trumping the legal system for a very long time. It's far from the only place. Even my podunk university tried to do the same thing. Even my HS looked the other way, and after Columbine was terrified that sports players could possibly be given retribution for their actions. Personally, I could always care less if the masses view sports as being even more important than religion. Tis their right to worship as they please. Until they believe their worship trumps the rule of law and other folks' rights. 

The institution promoted the climate of absolute right of the sports programs. The institution promoted a high level of unaccountability in their sports programs. The institution certainly did not turn down the checks from the sports programs. The institution directly profited from this, everyone up and down the line knowing to STFU. Even janitors knew, and knew not to say anything because at a minimum they'd be fired. 

Also, more than a couple people heard of Ray Gricar and thought best to leave some stones unturned.

Well put Rev, and I think that holds true for a lot of other "Institutes of Higher Learning".

[RevDisk]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/24/tom-price-penn-state-sanctions-september-11_n_1699775.html?utm_hp_ref=tw

In case anyone was thinking that I was kidding that plenty of folks believe ANY form of punishment is abhorrent and intolerable.

[Hawkmoon]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/24/tom-price-penn-state-sanctions-september-11_n_1699775.html?utm_hp_ref=tw

In case anyone was thinking that I was kidding that plenty of folks believe ANY form of punishment is abhorrent and intolerable.

Sandusky's in jail and Paterno died -- what's yer problem?

Nothing to see here, move along now ...

[Strings]

But it's FOOTBALL, Rev! Don't you understand how important that is?

Yet another reason I despise sports

[seeker_two]

Sandusky's in jail and Paterno died -- what's yer problem?

Why are we letting Paterno off so easy?....

[Perd Hapley]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/24/tom-price-penn-state-sanctions-september-11_n_1699775.html?utm_hp_ref=tw

In case anyone was thinking that I was kidding that plenty of folks believe ANY form of punishment is abhorrent and intolerable.

[Gobsmacked] Any word on when he's going to apologize to the 9/11 victims' families?

[roo_ster]

But it's FOOTBALL, Rev! Don't you understand how important that is?

Yet another reason I despise sports fandom.

I like sports plenty.  It is the yahoos in the bleachers that make me wanna knock heads.

[stevelyn]

It's not what they have coming, but it's a start.

[RevDisk]

[Gobsmacked] Any word on when he's going to apologize to the 9/11 victims' families?

He isn't. And his words may have been considered impolitic by other PSU fans, but not the sentiment. FB is lighting up with "You can't change history!", "WE ARE PENN STATE", etc etc. 

I have always loathed sports fandom. Might you, I say this being fond of MMA. But hell would freeze over before I support a sports program over an entity that actively assisted a pedophile. 

[red headed stranger]

I was amazed at some of the twitter reactions posted here:

Some NSFW language:
http://deadspin.com/5928385/

But, as other have stated, football is a religion for many. 

[AJ Dual]

He isn't. And his words may have been considered impolitic by other PSU fans, but not the sentiment. FB is lighting up with "You can't change history!", "WE ARE PENN STATE", etc etc. 

I have always loathed sports fandom. Might you, I say this being fond of MMA. But hell would freeze over before I support a sports program over an entity that actively assisted a pedophile. 

Their own reactions prove why the institution had to be "punished" too.

[Strings]

AJ hit the nail on the head.

And honestly, I think the death penalty on the program SHOULD have been used

[MillCreek]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/25/us/pennsylvania-penn-state-insurer/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn

An interesting but not unexpected development in my area of risk management.  This is not unusual, and this has happened most frequently in recent years in the clergy sex abuse cases.  It all has to do with the wording of the insurance policies that were in effect when the acts occurred.  Eventually, a court will decide if the insurers are on the hook or not based on an interpretation of the policy language.

Because of these sort of cases, the commercial insurance policies in recent years generally have specific exclusions that clearly state that there is no insurance coverage for these cases.  It is similar to your homeowners' insurance policy that now have an exclusion for sexual abuse, intended or not.  

So if there is no insurance coverage, the University and ultimately the tax payers of the state (since this is a state school if I recall correctly) will be paying legal fees, costs, settlements and awards out of the University budget.  If the Court finds under the policy language that there is a duty to defend but not indemnify (unlikely), then the insurance company would have to pay the costs of defense but not any verdicts or settlements.   In most cases, courts are reluctant to have insurers pay for criminal activity such as sexual abuse, since this is against public policy and the insurance is supposed to cover accidental exposures, not deliberate or criminal acts by the insured.

[RevDisk]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/25/us/pennsylvania-penn-state-insurer/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn

An interesting but not unexpected development in my area of risk management.  This is not unusual, and this has happened most frequently in recent years in the clergy sex abuse cases.  It all has to do with the wording of the insurance policies that were in effect when the acts occurred.  Eventually, a court will decide if the insurers are on the hook or not based on an interpretation of the policy language.

Because of these sort of cases, the commercial insurance policies in recent years generally have specific exclusions that clearly state that there is no insurance coverage for these cases.  It is similar to your homeowners' insurance policy that now have an exclusion for sexual abuse, intended or not.  

So if there is no insurance coverage, the University and ultimately the tax payers of the state (since this is a state school if I recall correctly) will be paying legal fees, costs, settlements and awards out of the University budget.  If the Court finds under the policy language that there is a duty to defend but not indemnify (unlikely), then the insurance company would have to pay the costs of defense but not any verdicts or settlements.   In most cases, courts are reluctant to have insurers pay for criminal activity such as sexual abuse, since this is against public policy and the insurance is supposed to cover accidental exposures, not deliberate or criminal acts by the insured.

Short answer, no, it is not a state school.

Long answer, yes and no.  It's a state school when it is convenient and it is not a state school when it is inconvenient.  It's a "state-related" university, and a land grant university.  It's part of the Commonwealth System of Higher Education, gets state funding but is independent.  OTOH, it has 32 board members. Governor, six governor appointees, three department Secretaries means the State has 10 board members. Rest are elected by alumni or agriculture societies. It's intentionally convoluted.


The PA Legislature is making it clear that PSU had better not be charging the state for their fines. Technically, PA Legislature cannot demand to see PSU's financial and budget information. OTOH, they can stop the checks. If PSU withholds information or spends state money, they will see those checks stop coming until information is provided or the state is reimbursed. I do wonder who put that to folks in the State government.