Author Topic: Falling carbon price could result in higher bills  (Read 1345 times)

Sergeant Bob

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Falling carbon price could result in higher bills
« on: December 21, 2009, 09:18:10 PM »
And to think Obama and the rest of his cronies aspire to create the U.S.A. in their image.
What on earth is wrong with these people!?


Falling carbon price could result in higher bills, energy firms warn

   
Electricity bills could go up as a result of the weekend's feeble agreement on climate change at Copenhagen, energy suppliers have warned.

The price of carbon – paid by heavy polluters such as power plant operators – plummeted yesterday by almost 10% on Europe's emissions trading market. This was in response to the EU scrapping a planned commitment to cut emissions by 30% by 2020 because other countries failed to show similar ambition.

E.ON and Centrica warned that they would not invest the tens of billions of pounds to build expensive new nuclear reactors and clean coal plants at today's carbon price, which is supposed to penalise dirty coal and gas plants.

Spot prices are now around €12 (£10) a tonne, close to a six-month low, and experts say that to make building new nuclear reactors financially viable, a price closer to €40 is needed.

A spokesman for E.ON said that without government action to tighten carbon markets, companies would wait until ageing reactors and coal plants close over the next decade and until power prices rocket before they made the investment.

"It is taking a hell of a risk of the lights going out," he said. "Power prices would go through the roof – they would have to get at a level where we think 'there's money to be made'. But we will get very, very tight [on security of supply]. It's the worst case scenario."

Some companies including Centrica repeated calls for the UK government to intervene and put a floor – or higher minimum price – on carbon to guarantee them a profit on building the expensive low carbon emitting power plants. The Guardian reported in October that senior government officials had promised the nuclear industry to fix a higher carbon price in the event of a failure at Copenhagen. A spokeswoman for Ed Miliband, the energy and climate change secretary, last night would not comment on his plans.

Centrica also pointed out that the failure by the EU to increase its commitment from a 20% reduction in carbon emissions to a 30% cut by 2020 left the UK at a distinct disadvantage. Gordon Brown has already set a much higher target for the UK to cut emissions by 34% by 2020. This will make it harder for heavy polluters in Britain, such as manufacturers, to be competitive with their European rivals, who have less onerous pollution targets. The EU's lower reduction target – which determines the price of carbon on the EU emissions market – also makes it much harder for the UK which needs a higher carbon price to meet its own target.

Global energy companies such as Shell have also been pushing for a global market for carbon as the best way to stimulate investment in low carbon technologies. But analysts said the Copenhagen talks made this less likely, because countries did not sign up to individual binding emissions targets as they did under the Kyoto protocol. Countries also split into negotiating blocks, epitomised by the final agreement drawn up by the US, China, India, South Africa and Brazil, which excluded the rest of the world, making it harder to set up a global carbon trading system.

Andreas Arvanitakis, senior analyst at Point Carbon, said: "In some respects, it looks as though a single international carbon market is less and less likely, with a patchwork of regional price signals emerging instead."

A spokeswoman for Shell was downbeat about the Copenhagen summit. "The Copenhagen accord is just a step towards a global framework, but much more is required. We appreciate the difficulties of the process and recognise that the accord reflects a true political willingness to combat climate change. However, it remains unclear how this political willingness will translate into concrete steps and drive an international process to deliver a global framework."

* guardian.co.uk © Guardian News and Media Limited 2009
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
I meet lots of folks like this, claim to be anarchist but really they're just liberals with pierced genitals. - gunsmith

I already have canned butter, buying more. Canned blueberries, some pancake making dry goods and the end of the world is gonna be delicious.  -French G

coppertales

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Re: Falling carbon price could result in higher bills
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2009, 10:26:09 AM »
What kind of idiot buys carbon anyway?  I guess some is used in manufacturing of something or other.....chris3

Sergeant Bob

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Re: Falling carbon price could result in higher bills
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2009, 10:49:44 AM »
What kind of idiot buys carbon anyway?  I guess some is used in manufacturing of something or other.....chris3

Shirley, you jest? =D
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
I meet lots of folks like this, claim to be anarchist but really they're just liberals with pierced genitals. - gunsmith

I already have canned butter, buying more. Canned blueberries, some pancake making dry goods and the end of the world is gonna be delicious.  -French G

MechAg94

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Re: Falling carbon price could result in higher bills
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2009, 10:55:02 AM »
Can't they just buy coal instead?  Same thing. 

De Beers is supposed to be sitting on stockpiles of carbon also.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

sanglant

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Re: Falling carbon price could result in higher bills
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2009, 03:54:01 PM »
What kind of idiot buys carbon anyway?  I guess some is used in manufacturing of something or other.....chris3

i buy quite a bit of carbon [tinfoil] [popcorn] what can i say, i likes me some poke =D

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Falling carbon price could result in higher bills
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2009, 04:13:04 PM »
Idoangeddit.

The sin-tax on carbon producers is less.

This makes electric bills cheaper, in my analysis.

You don't "buy" carbon.  You pay carbon offsets.  If you're into that sort of thing.

Low carbon prices raise electric bills... high carbon prices raise electric bills.  Sounds like we shouldn't have carbon markets at all, then. [tinfoil]
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Falling carbon price could result in higher bills
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2009, 04:25:53 PM »
Quote
A spokesman for E.ON said that without government action to tighten carbon markets, companies would wait until ageing reactors and coal plants close over the next decade and until power prices rocket before they made the investment.

Look at this glaring example of newspeak!  In other words... what we got already works.

Quote
"It is taking a hell of a risk of the lights going out," he said. "Power prices would go through the roof – they would have to get at a level where we think 'there's money to be made'. But we will get very, very tight [on security of supply]. It's the worst case scenario."

Translation:  It's gotta run like California, where the industry is so heavily regulated that they buy power from AZ and Nevada (where we allow nuclear plants and hydroelectric power and coal and gas plants).  Except... I guys we on earth are supposed to buy our juice from another planet?

Quote
Centrica also pointed out that the failure by the EU to increase its commitment from a 20% reduction in carbon emissions to a 30% cut by 2020 left the UK at a distinct disadvantage. Gordon Brown has already set a much higher target for the UK to cut emissions by 34% by 2020. This will make it harder for heavy polluters in Britain, such as manufacturers, to be competitive with their European rivals, who have less onerous pollution targets.

Or... No-one is buying carbon credits and they're not worth much as a result.  Cheaper to buy mythical offsets from 3rd worlders than build supposed new stuff.  Result?  The UK will become California... with a self-imposed ceiling on energy production, and buy juice from France's nuclear capability.

This $#!+ just amazes me.  Invent a sin tax out of thin air, and "trade" it on a supposed free market.  Then... when it doesn't go how you want even if everyone plays your stupid little game... you increase taxes or mandate behavior even when your sin tax fails to accomplish the goal.

I want a constitutional amendment prohibiting sin taxes.  Taxes on your right to exist.  Taxes on non-tangibles (carbon offsets).  Taxes to curb behavior of unpopular actions.

"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

Scout26

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Re: Falling carbon price could result in higher bills
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2009, 05:48:42 PM »
Otay,  I'm a might confuddled here.

Energy (carbon) prices are falling due to either increased supply or reduced demand or combo thereof.  (See, I did pay attention in Econ class).

But since this is bad for the .gov, they are artifically increasing prices through some sort of tax to help the people.

Ahhh, it's socialism, that explains why my head asploded when I read the article. 
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


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HankB

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Re: Falling carbon price could result in higher bills
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2009, 06:40:36 PM »
War is peace.

Slavery is freedom.

Up is down.

Left is right.

White is black.

Get it?

 ;/

(Once again, check my .sig regarding those who are in charge.)
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stevelyn

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Re: Falling carbon price could result in higher bills
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2009, 09:59:37 PM »
That piece of crap was printed in The Guardian as a legit news story?

It reads like The Onion.
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Sergeant Bob

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Re: Falling carbon price could result in higher bills
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2009, 01:05:43 AM »
Idoangeddit.

The sin-tax on carbon producers is less.

This makes electric bills cheaper, in my analysis.

You don't "buy" carbon.  You pay carbon offsets.  If you're into that sort of thing.

Low carbon prices raise electric bills... high carbon prices raise electric bills.  Sounds like we shouldn't have carbon markets at all, then. [tinfoil]

You got it. I guess everyone else either missed the whole point of the article or are "pulling our elbows".

Carbon offsets, credits, cap ant steal kinda stuff. :O
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
I meet lots of folks like this, claim to be anarchist but really they're just liberals with pierced genitals. - gunsmith

I already have canned butter, buying more. Canned blueberries, some pancake making dry goods and the end of the world is gonna be delicious.  -French G

Desertdog

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Re: Falling carbon price could result in higher bills
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2009, 04:43:07 PM »
Let's see how this sounds;

Quote
Falling carbon price could result in higher bills, energy firms warn
They are not selling carbon.  They are selling 'Carbon Credits", which is the product of sombody's imagination. 

If the price goes too low, some fat as*ed corporation is not going to be able to fill their pockets with cash, just change.