Author Topic: Tragic death of a child in Oakland after surgery  (Read 13873 times)

MillCreek

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Tragic death of a child in Oakland after surgery
« on: December 23, 2013, 06:07:33 PM »
http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/23/health/jahi-mcmath-girl-brain-dead/


I have not read the medical records, but everything I have read in the media tells me that the child experienced brain death, as opposed to a coma.  People can in some instances recover from a coma, not so much from brain death.  It is not unusual to see the family clinging to hope in these cases, but I hope they can come to terms with the prognosis and make the best decision for the child.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Tragic death of a child in Oakland after surgery
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2013, 07:31:24 PM »
The family of that woman in Florida claimed for years that she wasn't brain dead and that she would recover "any day now."

Hope springs eternal ... etc.

This is sad, but even sadder is clinging to a hopeless expectation that she'll recover.
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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Tragic death of a child in Oakland after surgery
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2013, 07:39:36 PM »
"tonsil surgery"

=|

I feel bad for the mother, but the kid is dead. I can understand people and the family wanting answers for why the kid is dead, but to dispute the brain death and keep the body on life support... Well, some people can't accept grief, especially under such tragic circumstances.

Sad story.
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Boomhauer

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Re: Tragic death of a child in Oakland after surgery
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2013, 08:47:18 PM »
Unfortunately even the most routine surgery always has the ultimate risk...

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cordex

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Re: Tragic death of a child in Oakland after surgery
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2013, 08:49:02 PM »
Unfortunately even the most routine surgery always has the ultimate risk...
Of course, so does driving to the grocery store.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Tragic death of a child in Oakland after surgery
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2013, 09:36:21 PM »
Unfortunately even the most routine surgery always has the ultimate risk...

Yeppers.

My paternal grandfather went into a hospital for what was supposed to be some very routine procedure ... and he never came home.

The one thing certain about life is that nobody gets out alive.
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French G.

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Re: Tragic death of a child in Oakland after surgery
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2013, 10:45:16 PM »
Preventable medical error 400K/year. Guns 30-40K a year. Ban assault doctors!

In that case it seems that post-op there was a really bad response from the hospital, seems some more immediate intervention might have helped.
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Firethorn

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Re: Tragic death of a child in Oakland after surgery
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2013, 11:35:11 PM »
I feel bad for the mother, but the kid is dead. I can understand people and the family wanting answers for why the kid is dead, but to dispute the brain death and keep the body on life support... Well, some people can't accept grief, especially under such tragic circumstances.

I'm one for 'the person is dead when the brain is dead; even if the meat is still functional', but I'm still in favor of thorough investigation to ensure that a person is really 'brain dead' and not just in some wierd coma.

I hope, I very much hope that the court appointed second opinion does his job competenty to the fullest of his ability and accurately advises the mother, who will then take his advice and do the appropriate thing.

LadySmith

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Re: Tragic death of a child in Oakland after surgery
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2013, 04:24:20 AM »
I'm with the family on this as far as getting a second opinion.
Hospitals seem a bit too quick to pull plugs to me. Maybe folks are sometimes worth more dead than alive.
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TommyGunn

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Re: Tragic death of a child in Oakland after surgery
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2013, 10:52:02 AM »
I'm one for 'the person is dead when the brain is dead; even if the meat is still functional', but I'm still in favor of thorough investigation to ensure that a person is really 'brain dead' and not just in some wierd coma.

I hope, I very much hope that the court appointed second opinion does his job competenty to the fullest of his ability and accurately advises the mother, who will then take his advice and do the appropriate thing.

Modern medical scanning equipment can determine how much brain tissue is dead and where in the brain it is.  In the Schiavo case it was absolutly determined that the only parts of her brain that remained functioning was the parts responsible for autonomic functions; she had no higher brain function.  Her intellect, her personality...all that, was with God.  Yet it became a much ballyhooed case in the public arena with talking heads like Sean Hannity  trying to make a big case in favor of "life,"  when in fact, the lady in question, herself, was as dead as can be.
I agree that we need to have a true, honest and open assessment of the condition of people in these quasi-terminal conditions .... but it really is not hard to do this.  But unfortunatly a lot of philosophical fluff gets in the way .... ...
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Tragic death of a child in Oakland after surgery
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2013, 11:04:02 AM »
The family of that woman in Florida claimed for years that she wasn't brain dead and that she would recover "any day now."



No one claimed she was brain dead. The controversy was about whether or not she was in a "persistent vegetative state," and whether she could benefit from certain therapies that her husband allegedly refuse to consider. 
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MechAg94

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Re: Tragic death of a child in Oakland after surgery
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2013, 11:33:52 AM »
Yeah, I don't recall anyone claiming she was brain dead or had no higher brain function.  At least I don't remember that terminolgy used. 

My Great Grandmother was essentially brain dead after a stroke.  She lasted about a month before finally passing. 
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Re: Tragic death of a child in Oakland after surgery
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2013, 11:52:45 AM »
I'm with the family on this as far as getting a second opinion.
Hospitals seem a bit too quick to pull plugs to me. Maybe folks are sometimes worth more dead than alive.

Close, alive and comatose is a very very expensive proposition - the price for keeping the body alive for the natural lifespan? Enormous.

A lawyer gal I dated always told me if I accidentally ran someone over or severely injured someone to go back and make sure they're dead.
Really a lot cheaper then paying medical bills for 30 or 40 or 60 years.
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MillCreek

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Re: Tragic death of a child in Oakland after surgery
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2013, 11:53:37 AM »
Close, alive and comatose is a very very expensive proposition - the price for keeping the body alive for the natural lifespan? Enormous.

A lawyer gal I dated always told me if I accidentally ran someone over or severely injured someone to go back and make sure they're dead.
Really a lot cheaper then paying medical bills for 30 or 40 or 60 years.


We say that in malpractice too: it is cheaper if the patient is dead. Not that there are any recordings of me saying such things on the record, of course.  :angel:
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MillCreek
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Tragic death of a child in Oakland after surgery
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2013, 03:15:05 PM »

No one claimed she was brain dead. The controversy was about whether or not she was in a "persistent vegetative state," and whether she could benefit from certain therapies that her husband allegedly refuse to consider. 

As far as I'm concerned, there is no difference between "brain dead" and "persistent vegetative state." My living will uses whatever language is mandated by the state, and IIRC it uses the "persistent vegetative state" lingo, but as far as I'm concerned, if the lights are on but nobody's home, the medicos aren't doing me or my family any favors by continuing to treat an empty shell when my consciousness (and likely my soul) have long since unassed the area of operations.
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MillCreek

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Re: Tragic death of a child in Oakland after surgery
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2013, 04:27:04 PM »
As far as I'm concerned, there is no difference between "brain dead" and "persistent vegetative state." My living will uses whatever language is mandated by the state, and IIRC it uses the "persistent vegetative state" lingo, but as far as I'm concerned, if the lights are on but nobody's home, the medicos aren't doing me or my family any favors by continuing to treat an empty shell when my consciousness (and likely my soul) have long since unassed the area of operations.

A whole lot of physicians and nurses feel the same way, and feel it is unethical and harmful to the patient to keep treating them once they are brain dead, as opposed to stopping life support and letting nature take its course.  If the family is insistent that treatment continue, we will ask them to find another hospital or skilled nursing facility to take the patient and continue futile treatment.
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MillCreek
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Tragic death of a child in Oakland after surgery
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2013, 06:50:47 PM »
A whole lot of physicians and nurses feel the same way, and feel it is unethical and harmful to the patient to keep treating them once they are brain dead, as opposed to stopping life support and letting nature take its course.  If the family is insistent that treatment continue, we will ask them to find another hospital or skilled nursing facility to take the patient and continue futile treatment.

I am aware of this, and I concur.

I am also aware that there are many other cases where hospitals (or judges working in concert with court-appointed land sharks lawyers) have refused to allow a dignified death, even when the family has requested it. In those (latter kind of) cases, IMHO all costs should then be borne by the judge and hospital, not by the family. If my next-of-kin or designated health care permission-giver (whatever the legal term is) says "Pull the plug, he's gone," and some doctor or administrator gets a judge to order that I be kept hooked up indefinitely ... I don't think my family should be forced to pay for salving someone else's notion of what's "right."
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Ned Hamford

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Re: Tragic death of a child in Oakland after surgery
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2013, 09:22:24 PM »
I am aware of this, and I concur.

I am also aware that there are many other cases where hospitals (or judges working in concert with court-appointed land sharks lawyers) have refused to allow a dignified death, even when the family has requested it. In those (latter kind of) cases, IMHO all costs should then be borne by the judge and hospital, not by the family. If my next-of-kin or designated health care permission-giver (whatever the legal term is) says "Pull the plug, he's gone," and some doctor or administrator gets a judge to order that I be kept hooked up indefinitely ... I don't think my family should be forced to pay for salving someone else's notion of what's "right."

Folks can afford to be high and mighty when its other people's lives and money.
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vaskidmark

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Re: Tragic death of a child in Oakland after surgery
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2013, 11:36:58 AM »
Teh nooz says the hospital has been given permission to pull the plugs.  If they do that before the mother can get her lawyer in front of another judge to get an injunction or a stay thhis may be settled soon.

BTW, that was what kept the Terry Shaivo case going so long - every time one side got what they asked for the other side was immediately in front of a judge asking for a countermanding order.  At times they did not clear the courthouse steps before being served with an injunction against what they were walking out the door with.  Judges playing out their personal "convictions" as opposed to actually condidering what the law said.

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MillCreek

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Re: Tragic death of a child in Oakland after surgery
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2013, 12:50:51 PM »
They have until 1700 on 30 December to file an appeal.  The exam by the court-ordered specialist confirmed that the child is brain-dead.  Now what the hospital has to contemplate is what to do if the family physically bars the door or otherwise blocks access to the child to prevent hospital staff from turning off the ventilator and other machines. It would be a very messy business to have to use hospital security or the police to physically remove the family in order to pull the plug, and you cannot pay for that sort of publicity.
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
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sumpnz

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Re: Tragic death of a child in Oakland after surgery
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2013, 12:10:43 AM »
In the Terry Schaivo case, to me anyway, the biggest issue was who had the legal right to decide what therapies, treatment, etc. to provide or withhold.  In the absence of a clear written prior direction, it seems to me that her husband had that right.  Credible alleations of abuse or other criminal activity by him against her, particularly if said abuse was likely to have caused her to be in that condition would be about the only reason I could see to strip him of that authority.  That her family was able to stop his plan to cease all treatment via the courts is somewhat troubling.  I say somewhat as there are aspects of the case that are not totally clear, and it's possible, if unlikely, that there was good cause for such legal interference.

Firethorn

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Re: Tragic death of a child in Oakland after surgery
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2013, 10:24:22 AM »
They have until 1700 on 30 December to file an appeal.  The exam by the court-ordered specialist confirmed that the child is brain-dead.  Now what the hospital has to contemplate is what to do if the family physically bars the door or otherwise blocks access to the child to prevent hospital staff from turning off the ventilator and other machines. It would be a very messy business to have to use hospital security or the police to physically remove the family in order to pull the plug, and you cannot pay for that sort of publicity.

Wouldn't the simple solution be to simply turn the power off to the room?  Or heck, simply don't provide any medical supplies/assistance.  Without IV's the body isn't going to last long.  Dehydration will take it's toll.

MillCreek

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Re: Tragic death of a child in Oakland after surgery
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2013, 11:04:50 AM »
The family says they have found a skilled nursing facility but they want the hospital to first place a permanent feeding tube and a breathing tube.  The hospital is refusing, saying it is unethical to perform surgical procedures on a deceased person, and the judge has made no such order.
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MillCreek
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

MillCreek

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Re: Tragic death of a child in Oakland after surgery
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2013, 11:14:10 AM »
Wouldn't the simple solution be to simply turn the power off to the room?  Or heck, simply don't provide any medical supplies/assistance.  Without IV's the body isn't going to last long.  Dehydration will take it's toll.

I have been in these sort of situations, and it is really difficult to find a path that respects the dignity of the patient, supports the family and supports the staff.  There are no ready black and white answers, and each situation has to be handled on its own merits.  In these sort of matters, hospital leadership, legal, risk management and ethics are probably meeting every day to talk about the game plan and what to do next.  I am sure they are also reaching out to the family, but I suspect the family wants as little to do with the hospital as possible. Just a terrible tragedy for all involved.
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Firethorn

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Re: Tragic death of a child in Oakland after surgery
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2013, 01:08:50 PM »
I am sure they are also reaching out to the family, but I suspect the family wants as little to do with the hospital as possible. Just a terrible tragedy for all involved.

"As little to do" isn't "They want feeding tubes installed". 

*sigh*, let the kid go people.