Author Topic: 13yr old has solar power breakthrough?  (Read 6772 times)

gunsmith

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13yr old has solar power breakthrough?
« on: August 21, 2011, 12:23:00 AM »
http://gizmodo.com/5832557/genius-13+year+old-has-a-solar-power-breakthrough

now all he has to do is figure out a gravity/anti gravity power generator or space drive.
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Strings

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Re: 13yr old has solar power breakthrough?
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2011, 12:49:11 AM »
Well, I certainly feel completely inadequate...
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Re: 13yr old has solar power breakthrough?
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2011, 02:57:53 AM »
It's a good thing God's patent expired a long time ago, or that kid would be in serious trouble.
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birdman

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Re: 13yr old has solar power breakthrough?
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2011, 08:52:54 AM »
Impressive results, but it won't beat a heliostat (sun-tracking) collector, only a fixed panel.  So, since the mechanics are the cheap part, compared to the solar cells, unfortunately he's managed to invent a concept that eliminates the cheap part (mount) by using more of the expensive part (cells).  Good science, bad economics...using nature as a model only works up to the point where you end up being limited by the same things limiting the natural object (e.g. Trees can't move quickly in multiple rotational dimensions to track the sun), thus you end up with the same limited solution.  In any case, really smart kid, yes. "solar breakthrough", no.

230RN

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Re: 13yr old has solar power breakthrough?
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2011, 09:13:39 AM »
^ Ah, but a mind untrammeled by conventional wisdom!

We seem to forget that in earlier times, "kids" were out and about doing things we wouldn't expect from them nowadays.

One of my favorite stories along these lines is where Carl Friedrich Gauss' teachers wanted to keep the class busy for a while, so they assigned them the task of adding up all the numbers from 1 to 100:

Quote
At the age of seven, Karl Friedrich Gauss started elementary school, and his potential was noticed almost immediately. His teacher, Büttner, and his assistant, Martin Bartels, were amazed when Gauss summed the integers from 1 to 100 instantly by spotting that the sum was 50 pairs of numbers each pair summing to 101.

http://www.gap-system.org/~history/Biographies/Gauss.html


Whether this kid realized that perhaps it might be economically unviable as is, it was nevertheless an interesting departure.  Maybe next he'll figure out a way to rig a tiny bimetallic expansion element and linkage to each leaf to make it face sunward through all (or most of) the day --thus harnessing the energy for motive power, to boot.

Ya never know.  I'm reminded of Faraday's remark when asked of what use his primitive homopolar generator was: "Of what use is a newborn baby?"

Compare and contrast the "baby" with the "youth:"




"Hmmm... beautiful sunrise this morning," Terry said, optimistically.


Terry, 230RN

PS. The details of the Gaussian story vary from teller to teller, as well as the spelling of "Karl."

« Last Edit: August 21, 2011, 09:53:26 AM by 230RN »
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birdman

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Re: 13yr old has solar power breakthrough?
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2011, 09:51:14 AM »
I think kids still do those things (I did)  Again, smart kid, just not a solar breakthrough, my point is we should be impressed, and attempt to grow his capability, not concentrate on the device--in fact, learning about the economic aspect is what he needs to learn--engineering isn't "creating the best thing" it's "creating the best thing given these constraints"...other than that part, the kid shows promise, AMD he should get some good mentors.

wmenorr67

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Re: 13yr old has solar power breakthrough?
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2011, 09:57:55 AM »
At least we didn't go off and start talking about why the tree grew the way it did.  The comments at the end of the article our great to read and most are.
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cosine

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Re: 13yr old has solar power breakthrough?
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2011, 10:12:38 AM »
I hope the kid goes to school to study engineering. While this invention may be limited economically, I think it shows good aptitude for carefully observing an existing system and intuiting that it may be possible to apply how it works in creating new devices and systems. He shows an inherent creatively necessary for good engineering.
Andy

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Re: 13yr old has solar power breakthrough?
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2011, 11:34:54 AM »
I hope the kid goes to school to study engineering. While this invention may be limited economically, I think it shows good aptitude for carefully observing an existing system and intuiting that it may be possible to apply how it works in creating new devices and systems. He shows an inherent creatively necessary for good engineering.

Damn straight!  I've mentored quite a few really talented you engineers, and one thing they all have in common is the ability to not only look at things and ask why...but also to make the inductive leap needed to look at other things, and apply those aspects to dissimilar things, e.g. In this case, "trees need sun, perhaps what they evolved to collect sun could be applied to solar panels".  Interestingly enough, the use of genetic algorithms to optimize things is an attempt to find these inductive leaps (google genetic algorithm optimization of antennas to see some of the weird, and highly capable results).

mtnbkr

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Re: 13yr old has solar power breakthrough?
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2011, 11:45:22 AM »
How reliable and/or easy to repair are the sun tracking units?  This might be a good compromise where you don't want a more mechanically complex system, but need better efficiencies (homesteader/OTG types, remote/unmanned systems, etc).

Chris

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Re: 13yr old has solar power breakthrough?
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2011, 12:20:59 PM »
How reliable and/or easy to repair are the sun tracking units?  This might be a good compromise where you don't want a more mechanically complex system, but need better efficiencies (homesteader/OTG types, remote/unmanned systems, etc).

Chris

Depends, single-axis concentrators (look like a trough) only need to "nod" yearly if the long axis is east-west, (which can even be done manually) and with proper electronic power tracking, can achieve virtually identical results to 2-axis trackers.  Recently some bimetallic/fluid expansion based trackers have been built and are low cost, and extremely reliable, but not usable for large systems (power plant types), but are good for personal use.  If the trough is mounted long axis north/south, at the proper angle, no motion is required.  The issue the "tree" idea solves is that planar arrays lose power when the sun angle decreases, and solar cells rapidly lose efficiency when the intensity drops below a certain point.

The reason why the "tree" has economic issues isn't just the elimination of tracking, it's the effective utilization of space and volume--for a given land area, a tracking array will generate more power, and actually, I would bet a concentrator array with no tracking would beat the tree as it also eliminates the intensity aspect of inefficiency--even at low sun angles, the cells are still at a high enough intensity.  Think about it this way...since the tree takes up vertical space, the next "tree" has to be further away to avoid shadowing, meaning tilting, low, p,anar arrays can out more arrays in the same land area.

As for the large two-axis types, since the tracking only requires about ~180 total rotations a year for each axis, the reliability is actually extremely high...think very low speed, cheap, overbuilt electric motors.

So this idea, while very innovative, addresses one of the technical issues, but has economic competitor issues, so thus it's more science than engineering...more of a proof of "why trees are the way they are" instead of "better {lower cost per unit performance} solar power".  The kid will make a brilliant engineer, once he learns system optimization...unfortunately, this is always the last lesson engineers learn, even though it's the most important (even I have been trapped numerous times by a "great" idea/concept/product that solved a technical problem, but when compared to the alternatives, did not create a higher performing SYSTEM.  I think engineering schools should start with the system view, and then work to the details--the syllabus for my Aerospace degree did this--it centered around applying the newly learned information to solving problems given constraint.

230RN

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Re: 13yr old has solar power breakthrough?
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2011, 02:27:57 PM »
"Recently some bimetallic/fluid expansion based trackers have been built and are low cost..."

Huh!  So my (independent) notion of bimetallic directors wasn't so off the wall as I thought!

Huh!

I was thinking about building a hot-water-storage-tank-convection-circulated solar chicken house warmer once and made the interesting discovery that bending a large sheet of Masonite made a damned-close-to-perfect 2 dimensional paraboloid (a "linear reflector.")

Mebbe I should have stuck with that notion, but I don't remember why I abandoned it. 

Terry, 230RN

« Last Edit: August 21, 2011, 02:33:09 PM by 230RN »
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InfidelSerf

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Re: 13yr old has solar power breakthrough?
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2011, 04:54:05 PM »
Am I missing something?  
He used the same amount of collectors on both units.
"It had the same type and number of PV solar panels as the tree design, and the same peak voltage."
Based on that if one is storing and producing more energy, therefore it's more efficient.

Even if the mount is a bit more complicated and therefore more expensive you should still see a return to offset that slight increase.

I think the main advantage, is he discovered how to gain more efficiency in a collector by building it up vertically, rather than the horizontal construction we are using now.   This means we could place more collectors/sq ft
Not to mention the fact that his design somewhat negates the need for a collector to rotate.  Even if rotating the collector for maximum absorption. His design allows for more collectors per rotation apparatus.
Sorry that's a breakthrough.

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birdman

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Re: 13yr old has solar power breakthrough?
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2011, 05:47:16 PM »
Am I missing something?  
He used the same amount of collectors on both units.
"It had the same type and number of PV solar panels as the tree design, and the same peak voltage."
Based on that if one is storing and producing more energy, therefore it's more efficient.

Even if the mount is a bit more complicated and therefore more expensive you should still see a return to offset that slight increase.

I think the main advantage, is he discovered how to gain more efficiency in a collector by building it up vertically, rather than the horizontal construction we are using now.   This means we could place more collectors/sq ft
Not to mention the fact that his design somewhat negates the need for a collector to rotate.  Even if rotating the collector for maximum absorption. His design allows for more collectors per rotation apparatus.
Sorry that's a breakthrough.



No.
The article says the average power generated over a given day, with the same number of cells is greater.  BUT he used normal cells, I presume wired normally, without peak power tracking electronics.  When a cell is shaded, or subjected to sub-optimal lighting conditions, it rapidly drops in efficiency.  What his "tree" is doing is ensuring, at any given time, the number of cells with optimal lighting offsets the number with low or none, and since the drop-off is exponential for mis-aligned cells with no peak power tracking, he achieved the results he showed.  I would be willing to bet that a non-tracking, planar panel, equipped with the appropriate electronics would perform much closer, if not better (per cell average) than the tree.

Going vertical just increases the shadow zone, meaning you still get the same amount of collector per unit shadowed ground, whether they are low tracking panels, tall panels, fixed angled panels, or his tree.

I am telling you, flat out, a two-axis tracking panel would obliterate the tree, regardless of whether they had PPT electronics or not.

Like I said before, it's not a breakthrough (except for proving why trees evolved the way they did) in solar energy, and it's the nature of his experiment that yielded the "significant" results, rather than the results being significant across all comparisons.  Fact is, the reason the tree works is it positions cells at a variety of orientations, meaning (as I stated before) it actually "wastes" cells to ensure some are always optimally exposed (just like a real tree).  In real life, you wouldn't do this as it maximizes the cost of the expensive parts, in order to reduce the cost of the mount.  Additionally, if you simply mounted the cells on a curved plate, with it's axis of curvature perpendicular to the suns apparent path (rather than a flat plate perpendicular to the suns apparent path) I would bet that would not only (without PPT electronics) outperform the flat plate, but also the tree, as it is the analytical maximum exposure...and it would be low profile, not vertical.

This is good science, but not an engineering breakthrough--too bad people don't recognize that the first is sufficient to show the child's potential, and sadly require the latter to be true in order to do so.

freakazoid

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Re: 13yr old has solar power breakthrough?
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2011, 05:55:02 PM »
If you had a motor powered tracker, how many more cells would you need to cover the extra energy required to power the motors?
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birdman

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Re: 13yr old has solar power breakthrough?
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2011, 05:59:11 PM »
If you had a motor powered tracker, how many more cells would you need to cover the extra energy required to power the motors?

About 0.001% or less  Tracking panels are balanced, and only need 180ish revolutions per year on each axis, so the motor is just overcoming friction.  Even in poorly designed panel systems, the motor averages miliwatts, for panels of even a hundred watts.  For large panels, it's actually a power fraction too small to measure.

grampster

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Re: 13yr old has solar power breakthrough?
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2011, 06:40:16 PM »
I have 17 oak trees and three Mt. Ash.  Another 10 oaks are close to my lot lines on the south and north.  My lot is 100 X 200 ft on a slight hill that slopes down to the north and also down to the west toward a lake.  When looking carefully at the trees there are some very interesting positions that the limbs have taken with respect to how sunlight reaches them.  While not having a mind that can grasp much of the conversation ^^, just observing the trees is very interesting.

My other observation about discoveries is that in my years of sentience I have noticed that many discoveries are ones that sometimes are so simple and obvious when they are revealed that one wonders why they have never been noticed before.

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Stand_watie

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Re: 13yr old has solar power breakthrough?
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2011, 07:48:36 PM »
I have 17 oak trees and three Mt. Ash. .... just observing the trees is very interesting...Life is an interesting journey.

I like that. A man who counts and categorizes his trees is paying attention to the finer things in life. Now I'm going out in my yard to look at my trees.   =D
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HankB

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Re: 13yr old has solar power breakthrough?
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2011, 08:29:30 PM »
From looking at the "tree" I'd say he oriented the cells so that at "some" point during the day "some" of the cells will have near optimal orientation to the sun; other cells will be angled and less efficient. As the sun moves, the output of some cells will rise, while the efficiency of others will fall.

I would expect a sun-tracking system (especially one with something like a CPC) to have both higher average output and a significantly higher peak output in the same footprint.

Still, the kid deserves kudos for thinking outside the box, and his system may have some use in "low tech" areas where system maintenance is nonexistent.
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GigaBuist

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Re: 13yr old has solar power breakthrough?
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2011, 11:45:42 AM »
Looks like the story is bunk:  http://www.theatlanticwire.com/technology/2011/08/blog-debunks-13-year-old-scientists-solar-power-breakthrough/41520/

Favorite quote: "But The Capacity Factor, clearly unhappy with its role of the Grinch who must squash an adolescent's science discovery, has written a post called "In which hopelessly inept journalists reduce me to having to debunk a school science project."

Heh.

Scout26

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Re: 13yr old has solar power breakthrough?
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2011, 03:43:22 PM »
I am telling you, flat out, a two-axis tracking panel would obliterate the tree, regardless of whether they had PPT electronics or not.

Okay, prove it.

Seriously, you've stated your theory, now it's time for an experiment.

I'm not being a dick, just asking you to give the kid a break.  He produced a breakthrough.  Now if someone can design a more efficient solar panel, then we're really on to something.   

This kid conducted an experiment and proved that the tree design beats a flat panel design, hands down.

What amazed me about the article was that the kid recognized the Fibonacci series in tree branches.  That he recognized that fact, in and of itself, read up on it and then postulated a theory about solar cells, is mind blowing, at least to me.  I never heard of Fibonacci numbers until college.   I applaud the kid and hope he keeps saying to him "Hmmm, that's interesting, I wonder if...."

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birdman

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Re: 13yr old has solar power breakthrough?
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2011, 04:57:03 PM »
I don't have to prove his idea ISN'T better.  The purpose of innovation is to prove your "innovation" IS better.  Besides, I ALREADY STATED that his tree is more efficient than the same number of cells on a non-movable flat panel, WITHOUT  power tracking electronics.  However, flat or curved fixed panels with PPT are far more efficient than those without, and tracking panels are a HUGE amount more (way more than 20%).  So his "breakthrough" is no more of a breakthrough than decades ago when people said "why don't we point the array at the sun".

But since you asked, here's the proof.  A flat panel experiences a sun angle of 90 deg (about) at dawn and dusk, and zero degrees at noon.  Assuming all else being equal, and neglecting the power tracking/threshold effects (or applying them equally to all the systems), it will generate an average power equal to the (integral of sin theta from -pi/2 to pi/2)/pi times it's peak power (roughly 2/3rds of it's peak).  The kids tree does 20% better than this, meaning best case, it's about 80% of peak (and in actuality, much of that is due to the lack of PPT), while a 2-axis tracker will maintain peak output, or 25% better than the kids tree.  If you allow for PPT electronics, all of the systems will do better EXCEPT for the tree, as it totally compromises some cells, to allow more optimal angles for others.  PPT eliminates much of the negative of sub-optimal angles, but can't do anything for totally shadowed cells--thus, since a fixed flat panel will perform better (typically PPT allows for 10-30% increase in output), while the tree would do the same, it's probably even a wash fixed vs tree!

AND like I said before, a curved fixed panel would achieve the same effect as the "tree" (performance given no PPT), with a simpler mount, because mathematically, the tree reduces to a uniform curved panel w.r.t. Sun angle.

This has been "proven" many times....do some reading before you ask me to "prove" a negative.

Why can't people just accept the science part of what the kid did, instead of requiring or assuming some "breakthrough"...

birdman

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Re: 13yr old has solar power breakthrough?
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2011, 04:59:57 PM »
Oh, and read the "debunking" link...which says something very similar.

It is the innovator who just prove something is better, not the established method.  That is one of the fundamentals of SCIENCE.

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Re: 13yr old has solar power breakthrough?
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2011, 05:54:19 PM »
Since my Cabin is OTG, I've looked into Solar systems. Tracking systems typically deliver 15-25% more power than stationary systems in the winter, and 40-50% more in the summer.

http://efficienthomeenergysaving.org/solar-power-tracking-systems/
www.helmholz.us/smallpowersystems/Intro.pdf

There are also other simple ways to boost the power output of a collector:

http://www.geo-dome.co.uk/article.asp?uname=solar_mirror
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cosine

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Re: 13yr old has solar power breakthrough?
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2011, 09:13:36 PM »
(...)

What amazed me about the article was that the kid recognized the Fibonacci series in tree branches.  That he recognized that fact, in and of itself, read up on it and then postulated a theory about solar cells, is mind blowing, at least to me.  I never heard of Fibonacci numbers until college.   I applaud the kid and hope he keeps saying to him "Hmmm, that's interesting, I wonder if...."



Bolded the important part.

As birdman explained, not a scientific breakthrough. However, with his attitude and aptitude for noticing what he did, and with a little training, he would probably rock as an engineer. I hope his parents and teachers recognize that in him and he gets the science and math fundamentals he needs in high school.
Andy