Would you support seceding from the union?

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

it's a fantasy

Just like the USSR breaking up 

When things get as bad here as they were in the USSR, then it'll become plausible.  Until then, fantasy.

I agree. Where I think we disagree is whether or not we will reach a "badness level" similar to the USSR's. I think it's possible.

"That can't happen HERE!" is the bedrock belief of every fallen empire. When what makes America great is being lost more and more every day, why should we have such faith that we will remain as we have been?

Sure, anything is possible, even here.  But the fact that anything is possible doesn't mean that anything is probable.  As we stand right now, a situation as bad as USSR is highly unlikely. 

Maybe we'll get there someday.  Maybe.  Until then, I won't agree that secession is anything more than fantasy (or folly).

[longeyes]

I have been blowing the secession horn for a while so I cannot refrain from joining the barfight.

Every nation runs on good will, illusory or not, an unspoken sense that we're all playing by the same rules and that we will continue that way.  When that breaks down anything is possible.  My view is that it is and the process is accelerating.

When people really begin to fear for the futures of their children--for whatever reason--they will begin to consider all manner of outre' possibilities and secession will be one of them.  We already know there is a sense that this is two nations.  Expect that sense to grow.

[BlueStarLizzard]

I have been blowing the secession horn for a while so I cannot refrain from joining the barfight.

Every nation runs on good will, illusory or not, an unspoken sense that we're all playing by the same rules and that we will continue that way.  When that breaks down anything is possible.  My view is that it is and the process is accelerating.

When people really begin to fear for the futures of their children--for whatever reason--they will begin to consider all manner of outre' possibilities and secession will be one of them.  We already know there is a sense that this is two nations.  Expect that sense to grow.

  because that worked out great last time [/sarcasm]

the problem with succision in the us is the fact that those who disagree are not seperated into distinct territorys. even during the civil war, brothers literially fought brothers. and at that time their actually was distinct territory. now that line is no longer evident.

so please tell be how exatly this succesion of yours would work? this virginia girl wants to know...

[roo_ster]

Likely bloody & protracted.

Also, this time the PTBs would not be untouchable.  Expect the leadership on both sides to take casualties.

[longeyes]

  because that worked out great last time [/sarcasm]

the problem with succision in the us is the fact that those who disagree are not seperated into distinct territorys. even during the civil war, brothers literially fought brothers. and at that time their actually was distinct territory. now that line is no longer evident.

so please tell be how exatly this succesion of yours would work? this virginia girl wants to know...

Because something's traumatic and catastrophic doesn't mean it can't happen...or even that it's not worth it.  Sometimes you have no choice, and when and if enough people feel that way it WILL happen.

I would assume people will foregather with people of like mind, if for better social and economic prospects if not personal security.

I think all of us would like to believe such an eventuality won't take place.

[Balog]

I think secession is unlikely to happen because of the general apathy and cowardice of the population. But I could foresee circumstances where it would be better than the alternative.

[Manedwolf]

I have been blowing the secession horn for a while so I cannot refrain from joining the barfight.

Every nation runs on good will, illusory or not, an unspoken sense that we're all playing by the same rules and that we will continue that way.  When that breaks down anything is possible.  My view is that it is and the process is accelerating.

When people really begin to fear for the futures of their children--for whatever reason--they will begin to consider all manner of outre' possibilities and secession will be one of them.  We already know there is a sense that this is two nations.  Expect that sense to grow.

  because that worked out great last time [/sarcasm]

the problem with succision in the us is the fact that those who disagree are not seperated into distinct territorys. even during the civil war, brothers literially fought brothers. and at that time their actually was distinct territory. now that line is no longer evident.

so please tell be how exatly this succesion of yours would work? this virginia girl wants to know...

That's the problem. We have hardcore socialist liberals who want to take away all guns and traditional conservatives living next door to each other in every community.

Hard to draw battle lines when it's an infinitely complex patchwork!

[BridgeRunner]

That's the problem. We have hardcore socialist liberals who want to take away all guns and traditional conservatives living next door to each other in every community.

Hard to draw battle lines when it's an infinitely complex patchwork!

Yeah...but doesn't it feel reassuring to be on the side that actually has guns? 

[BlueStarLizzard]

i think some of ya'll may be confusing secession with restructure of the current establishment. seccession is when a bunch of cranky folks draw a line in the sand and say "we don't want to play with you anymore."

for the record i dont' see any glory in seccesion from the US, unless Hawaii or alaska are the ones succeeding.

[Balog]

i think some of ya'll may be confusing secession with restructure of the current establishment. seccession is when a bunch of cranky folks draw a line in the sand and say "we don't want to play with you anymore."

for the record i dont' see any glory in seccesion from the US, unless Hawaii or alaska are the ones succeeding.

Given their frequent "STFU" stance towards the fed.gov, I'd think Montana would be the most likely candidate.

[Tallpine]

Breakup of the US states is inevitable.  It's not like were made of some magic eternal stone or something.  Every empire comes to an end eventually.

When that will happen and what that will look like is entirely open to speculation.  Unfortunately, I fear that the USA will turn into an absolute dictatorship before it collapses.  Simply put, the leaders are going to do everything they can to try to salvage the sinking ship - things that will of course make the situation worse over the long run.

[AZRedhawk44]

Even though we have "Red" states and "Blue" states, or terms like "flyover America," we are too intermingled to ever have a successful secession.

Whether it's NY, CA, AZ or TX, there are dirty unwashed hippies, illegal immigrants, bitter-clingers and Paulians intermingled together in various percentages.

A second Civil War would probably end up as a war of attrition, coming close to a form of political genocide or purging.  It would then draw the UN to come and "keep the peace" on top of it all, further pissing off the bitter-clingers and Paulians to protract this war of attrition.

The US could Balkanize after a couple years of this.  I know that if things began moving that direction in AZ, I would move elsewhere.  If the FedGov won't get behind border security soon, AZ will be another Mexican province in maybe 10 years.  I think there's between 1.5 and 2 million illegals just in my state.

[seeker_two]

The next civil war is gonna look a lot like Northern Ireland or Bosnia.....lots of IED and sniper action against occupying troops.....nothing "civil" about it.....

But I do take heart that Texas will probably end up being independent again with lots of foreign support due to our energy and trade resources.....all we need is for FN, Beretta, or HK to build their next factory here.... 

[Physics]

Yeah...but doesn't it feel reassuring to be on the side that actually has guns?

 
Except the "other" side (the military/government) has nukes, jets, tanks, etc... and they have guns too. 

Unfortunately, I fear that the USA will turn into an absolute dictatorship before it collapses.  Simply put, the leaders are going to do everything they can to try to salvage the sinking ship - things that will of course make the situation worse over the long run.

 
Damn, I just finished "Atlas Shrugged".  Sounds a little bit familiar, that's kinda scary, we have already taken some steps in this direction. 

Didn't Montana legislators send a letter to fed.gov saying that if Heller vs. DC went the collective right way, that they were going to secede?

[lee n. field]

would you support your state breaking away from the union?

My state?  Only if we leave Chicago behind.  Otherwise it would be some accursed little Daley fiefdom.

[Tallpine]

Didn't Montana legislators send a letter to fed.gov saying that if Heller vs. DC went the collective right way, that they were going to secede?

Not exactly ...

What they said was that a non-individual rights interpretation of the 2A would violate and invalidate the compact admitting Montana into the union.

The rest is left to the imagination

[BridgeRunner]

Yeah...but doesn't it feel reassuring to be on the side that actually has guns?

 
Except the "other" side (the military/government) has nukes, jets, tanks, etc... and they have guns too. 

Well, I was responding to a comment more on civil war than on secession.  Tell a couple extreme liberals about how .gov is all on their side and watch them laugh uproariously while weeping in despair and frustration.  There's a reason they want Obama. 

[stevelyn]

Yes, but I would like to take Yukon and Northwest Territories with me and establish an autonomous region of all three as one.

Military and foreign policy would be based on the Swiss model.
Government would be based on the US and Alaska Constitutions with minor tweeking to clear up any ambiguous language. 
Trade would be free and open to anyone (nation) who wanted to make a buck or buy a product or service.

[De Selby]

Yes, but I would like to take Yukon and Northwest Territories with me and establish an autonomous region of all three as one.

Military and foreign policy would be based on the Swiss model.
Government would be based on the US and Alaska Constitutions with minor tweeking to clear up any ambiguous language. 
Trade would be free and open to anyone (nation) who wanted to make a buck or buy a product or service.

Sounds good to me.

But I want a guaranteed social policy-massive government investment in a project to make Alaska and the Yukon warm enough for mammals under 10,000 lbs.

[grampster]

My longtime friend and lawyer and I have hatched a plot to invade South Fox Island in Lake Michigan.  We are going to proclaim the Nation of South Fox.  My Lawyer will be Emperor (lawyers have big egos, he fits the bill )  I am ProConsul, Admiral of the navy (So far we have a 17 foot Glastron I/O, 135 HP)
Chairman of the Staff of Joints and Any Other Post Deemed Necessary.
Upon landing, we will declare war on the United States and then immediately surrender and ask for foreign aid and reconstruction money.

We're gonna have some really sharp uniforms.   Anybody else like to join up?  We will be issuing Letters of Marquis regarding any shipping in the area.  The Glastron gets pretty good mileage when the seas are calm.  We can probably upgrade once the foreign aid starts rolling in.

[stevelyn]

Yes, but I would like to take Yukon and Northwest Territories with me and establish an autonomous region of all three as one.

Military and foreign policy would be based on the Swiss model.
Government would be based on the US and Alaska Constitutions with minor tweeking to clear up any ambiguous language. 
Trade would be free and open to anyone (nation) who wanted to make a buck or buy a product or service.

Sounds good to me.

But I want a guaranteed social policy-massive government investment in a project to make Alaska and the Yukon warm enough for mammals under 10,000 lbs.

Sorry, can't do that. The colder temperatures act as riff-raff repellent. 

But we'll give you a set of Carhartts and a pair of LaCross Iceman's if you wish to immigrate.

[longeyes]

Our "nations" are intermingled now, true.

But that's now.

The migration of peoples for political reasons has already begun, just as has migration for economic reasons.  Why do you think Californians--I mean conservatives--are leaving this state in droves?

We are slowly but surely sorting ourselves out and drawing lines and taking sides.  All it will take to precipitate a true schism is one or more dramatic acts, which may be of a political nature or possibly cultural.

People can be pushed only so far.  If, for example, Prop. XIII were to be repealed in California by the leftists, all bets are off.

[Tallpine]

If the other 49 states want to secede from Montana, who am I to complain?

Let them go peacefully

[MicroBalrog]

A guy in NH had done sign-waving for Ron Paul in a wookie costume. Did the entire thing with the wookie howling/speech on the Ridley Report and so forth.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=h3XJXz_apas

Wookie appears at around the middle of the video.

I find this to be amusing and creative.

People on APS seem to find it ridiculous/stupid. YMMV.

[The Annoyed Man]

Hmm . . .

Choice a) Listen to the Star Wars nerds stand up for the U.S. Constitution and try to bring liberty back to this country as an actual issue.

Choice b) Listen to the clean shaven, respectable-looking men in suits that rob the people and chisel away at our freedoms.

Tough choices there, folks.