Author Topic: Evolution?  (Read 9294 times)

Sindawe

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Evolution?
« on: May 04, 2007, 08:16:47 AM »
This is an offshoot of the Republican candidate debate thread over on THR.Org.  I've posted it here rather than clutter up THR.Org with off topic discussion.

===========================

Originally Posted by Kentucky
Quote:Originally Posted by Sindawe
Off topic for L&P

I believe that the theory of evolution of organisms and natural selection is the best explanation to come forth to date for the diversity of animal and plant life on this planet, for both living examples and those found in the fossil records.

That said, I'd be willing to examine the theories you mention and their supporting evidence.

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Keeping an open mind, just not so open that my brains fall out.


Sindawe,

Thank your for your PM, and for the attitude that I sensed behind it. I appreciate a rational discussion very much. I also LOVE your signature line. Hopefully we can have an engaging discussion with a positive outcome.

You have made a quick statement describing your basic view of the universe and it's existence. For me, I believe that the universe was created by an intelligent designer, and that all life comes from that original creation. To me, it is the only theory that answers ALL the questions. I believe that evolution is a theory that is accepted for the most part by people who cannot fathom or do not want to believe that a Creator is responsible for the universe and their life, and accept the effects of such a realization. (Namely, an accountability to the said Creator.) Evolution provides a lot of answers based of circular reasoning and some fairy tale magic. One example of this is the extraordinary time frames that are associated with the theory of evolution. When proponents discover an impossibility in the theory the standard answer is usually to add more time to the mix to achieve their goals in the theory.

The theory of evolution says that the universe was created when all of the matter in the universe compressed into a small dot and then exploded and created the universe. To me this is a much greater statement of "Faith" than believing that an intelligent Creator created the universe. To challenge this beginning to the theory I would ask several basic questions:

# Where did the space for the universe come from?
# Where did matter come from?
# Where did the laws of the universe come from (gravity, inertia, etc.)?
# How did matter get so perfectly organized?
# Where did the energy come from to do all the organizing?
# When, where, why, and how did life come from non-living matter?
# When, where, why, and how did life learn to reproduce itself?
# With what did the first cell capable of sexual reproduction reproduce?

There are many more but for the sake of brevity and being able to carry on a conversation I would shorten it to these right now.

Since you specifically mentioned the fossil record I would like to talk about it more in-depth. Could you please elaborate specifically on which parts of the fossil record you feel are satisfied by evolution?

It looks to me like your starting point is a faith in an intelligent designer. I'm pressed for time today, but would like to extend this topic, may I post your reply on Armed Polite Society as a starting point?

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The Rabbi

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Re: Evolution?
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2007, 08:28:04 AM »
Big Bang Theory:

First there was nothing.  Then it exploded.
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AugustWest

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Re: Evolution?
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2007, 08:56:55 AM »
Firstly, it seems clear to me that the "intelligent design" movement as a whole is a backdoor attempt at pushing biblical creationism.

I wouldn't surprise me if someday science theorizes that there is some guiding or unifying force in the universe in conjunction with theories such as the big bang and evolution.

I would be very strongly surprised to find out that it looked anything like us, or that it created the world in six days.

Ron

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Re: Evolution?
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2007, 09:00:24 AM »
I reject the theory that chaos and randomness given enough time self organizes into what we see here on earth, or even in the cosmos for that matter.

I reject the theory that inanimate matter given enough time becomes sentient.

I reject the theory that we are only bio/chemical machines.

These theories ignore the "spirit" of life that drives the whole creation to act and fight against the laws of physics as we know them.


K Frame

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Re: Evolution?
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2007, 09:07:09 AM »
I reject the contention that somehow religion and science are at the opposite ends of a psychological/theological spectrum.
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The Rabbi

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Re: Evolution?
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2007, 09:39:50 AM »
And I reject all theories as being mere speculation.
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RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: Evolution?
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2007, 09:48:55 AM »
Quote

I would be very strongly surprised to find out that it looked anything like us,
I'm sure God looks nothing like us.

Quote from: Mike Irwin
I reject the contention that somehow religion and science are at the opposite ends of a psychological/theological spectrum
Crap. I agree with Mike again.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Evolution?
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2007, 10:00:48 AM »
Quote
I wouldn't surprise me if someday science theorizes that there is some guiding or unifying force in the universe in conjunction with theories such as the big bang and evolution.


Actually, that happened just recently, but was dismissed as "a backdoor attempt at pushing biblical creationism."  Otherwise intelligent people delighted in repeating that quip on the internet, but without any real evidence for it.   
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The Viking

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Re: Evolution?
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2007, 10:20:33 AM »
I thought everybody knew that our universe, and dear old Roundworld was created by the wizards at Unseen University, in order to get rid of a few  hundred trillion thaums of raw magic cheesy

K Frame

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Re: Evolution?
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2007, 10:28:12 AM »
Oh, and let's not forget, it's Bush's fault.
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Pew pew pew

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Re: Evolution?
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2007, 10:40:58 AM »
Evolution seems simple enough to me. I don't see a need to add an infinitely complex deity to the equation. Though you're free to, if you like.

grislyatoms

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Re: Evolution?
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2007, 10:58:18 AM »
I thought everybody knew that our universe, and dear old Roundworld was created by the wizards at Unseen University, in order to get rid of a few  hundred trillion thaums of raw magic cheesy

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Ron

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Re: Evolution?
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2007, 11:01:36 AM »
Quote
Evolution seems simple enough to me. I don't see a need to add an infinitely complex deity to the equation.

I find the improbable leaps of faith that evolution requires to be a far more complex system than believing in ID.

You feel free to just ignore the conundrum of organized complexity arising from chaos and randomness. Thats what all evolutionists are forced to do. 

The Viking

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Re: Evolution?
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2007, 11:10:35 AM »
I thought everybody knew that our universe, and dear old Roundworld was created by the wizards at Unseen University, in order to get rid of a few  hundred trillion thaums of raw magic cheesy

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Pew pew pew

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Re: Evolution?
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2007, 11:26:34 AM »
If you don't mind, I'd like to focus on this statement for a moment, Ron.

Quote from: Ron
I find the improbable leaps of faith that evolution requires to be a far more complex system than believing in ID.

It may be an easier to understand argument, in as much as saying "God did it" is an easy, compartmentalized explanation. But it is incorrect to say that to believe the theory of evolution* is true is to believe in a much more complex, irrational system. The theory of evolution explains in a logical, probable way the path in which life on earth has developed.

Simply falling back on "God did it" is easy to SAY and perhaps believe, but it is not more reasonable. It requires faith because it adds a factor that is not testable by any means, that of God. The evolutionary theory relies on observable, testable factors. That is why it is science. Observable, testable factors have lead the vast, VAST majority of scientists in the world (and a goodly portion of the general populace, though I don't know the numbers in places such as Africa, the ME, etc) to accept the theory of evolution as the most probable method in which life has developed.

*Please note, there are many Christians and other religious people who agree with the theory of evolution. It does not negate God, it simply explores the origin of life through testable means (which God is not.)

Tallpine

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Re: Evolution?
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2007, 11:30:43 AM »
Oh no - my faith in theories  sad
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Ron

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Re: Evolution?
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2007, 11:38:03 AM »
Quote
Simply falling back on "God did it" is easy to SAY and perhaps believe, but it is not more reasonable. It requires faith because it adds a factor that is not testable by any means, that of God. The evolutionary theory relies on observable, testable factors. That is why it is science. Observable, testable factors have lead the vast, VAST majority of scientists in the world (and a goodly portion of the general populace, though I don't know the numbers in places such as Africa, the ME, etc) to accept the theory of evolution as the most probable method in which life has developed.

Except you keep sidestepping the issue that it flies in the face of what is observed in nature.

Chaos and randomness never result in a more complex organization of anything. They result in more chaos and randomness, the loss of organization.

We have never observed inanimate matter come to life, because it doesn't and never has happened.

You can hide behind the scientific community but they don't answer the real questions at hand.

Just because you and most start with a faulty set of presuppositions (evolution=true) and work from there to prove the hypothesis doesn't make it true.

Science is not democracy and consensus is not the same as fact.






edited to remove inflammatory remark


ArmedBear

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Re: Evolution?
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2007, 01:34:15 PM »
The problem here is, the "scientific" statements made above show only one thing: a lack of interest in learning about science on the part of the posters.

Read this if you are really interested in understanding what evolutionary theory DOES say, vs. what you say it says: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html

After reading that, you can dispute whatever you want, but at least you'll be making a statement about something that relates to the science of evolutionary biology.

K Frame

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Re: Evolution?
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2007, 01:56:04 PM »
"We have never observed inanimate matter come to life, because it doesn't and never has happened."

While I believe in God, I've also never seen God come down onto the earth, speak, and create a new and unique life form from nothingness, either.

One could just as easily argue that it doesn't and never has happened that way because we've never observed it.
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Monkeyleg

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Re: Evolution?
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2007, 01:59:39 PM »
I believe in God, and I also believe in evolution.

I can embrace the theory of evolution, but always falter on one question: where did things actually begin? How did we get something from nothing?

The Big Bang theory doesn't work for me, because I have to wonder where those particles came from.

In the end, I have to conclude that there has always been a God (being/power/whatever) that created the "something" upon which life evolved. In order to believe that, though, I have to either believe that this God was also created from nothing, or that this God (being/power/whatever) has always existed. IOW, there is no beginning of time.

Not being a particularly religious person, I don't usually involve myself in threads such as this one, because I'm not articulate enough to argue the points.

K Frame

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Re: Evolution?
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2007, 02:01:25 PM »
"The Big Bang theory doesn't work for me, because I have to wonder where those particles came from."

God made a REALLY big pot of extra spicy chilli?

It wasn't really a big bang, it was a big poot...
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Ron

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Re: Evolution?
« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2007, 02:15:00 PM »
Quote
The problem here is, the "scientific" statements made above show only one thing: a lack of interest in learning about science on the part of the posters.

I know better than to even use the word evolution.

It is used in common parlance to describe not only the origin of species but also describe the cosmology of all living things and how they come from a common ancestor. Unless there has been a radical change life still emerged from non life with the help of a primordial soup ie order from disorder according to evolutionary biologists.

Your "helpful" website just dances around by declaring earth an open system powered by the sun and equating dust storms with "order". So with the sun all things are possible and life is just a bigger version of a dust storm?

The second law of thermodynamics is not suspended on earth because of the sun.

Some people cannot stand to deal with the metaphysical natural conclusions of their belief systems.




Kentucky

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Re: Evolution?
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2007, 02:45:18 PM »
Quote
Evolution seems simple enough to me. I don't see a need to add an infinitely complex deity to the equation. Though you're free to, if you like.

Infinitely complex?

Sir Fred Hoyle, a popular agnostic who wrote Evolution from Space (1981), proposed that such odds were one chance in 10 to the forty thousandth power("the same as the probability that a tornado sweeping through a junkyard could assemble a 747").

Francis Crick, an atheist and co-discoverer of the "DNA structure" in 1953, calls life "almost a miracle." 5 He couldn't rationalize the metaphysical implications of his DNA discovery so he devised his "interstellar spores" theory in the 1970s.

By the way, scientists from various disciplines generally set their "Impossibility Standard" at one chance in 10 to the fiftieth power (1 in a 100,000 billion, billion, billion, billion, billion). Therefore, whether one chance in 10 - 100,000,000,000 or one chance in 10 - 40,, the notion that life somehow rose from non-life has clearly met the scientific standard for statistical impossibility.

In other words, the theory of these simple enzymes forming on their own is 800 times more unlikely than the scientific standard of impossibility!

Since then, Hoyle's claims have been refuted as wildly optimistic. Any living creature is many times more complex than a simple 747. The human eye alone dwarfs the complexity of a 747, which increases the impossibility by a power of tens of thousands.

Evolution is FAR more complex and takes FAR more faith to believe than Creation.

Look around at the world and it's complexity's. Ask yourself, which takes more faith? In the beginning an all powerful God with intelligent design created this? Or in the beginning dirt, with an unexplained power and force and with NO intelligence created the world?

Cosmoline

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Re: Evolution?
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2007, 03:10:58 PM »
It seems to me that the bulk of the arguments against evolution can't possibly cope with DNA.  We are quite literally made by genetic material that's 99% identical to our cousins the chimps.  It's a little less close to gorillas and further still from other apes.  If humans were really sui generis creations, apart from all other life forms, we would have a completely different makeup and show no relationship to other living things.  But that's not the way it is. 

Now whether a higher power was involved in giving us the higher functions that seem unique to us, or whether that belief in a higher power is itself an adaptation to cope with the downside of self awareness, I don't know.  The longer I live, the more I think that belief in the immortality of the human "soul" is the ultimate form of mad hubris.  But at the same time, there's more in heaven and earth... Theoretical physics is revealing some truly mind-blowing things about the universe we live in.  It may ultimately turn out that time is not only relative, but really doesn't exist outside our limited point of view.  So what we do/have done/will do has a permanence in enternity that's totally beyond our ability to comprehend.  Who knows.  Maybe all that we think is happening is just the reaction to some needle going along the groove of information captured on the event horizon of a black hole.

Kentucky

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Re: Evolution?
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2007, 03:59:08 PM »
DNA similarity is very misunderstood. I would suggest that you research how these figures are arrived at, it will help you understand the fallacy of that argument. See this quote:

# What of the 97% (or 98% or 99%!) similarity claimed between humans and chimps? The figures published do not mean quite what is claimed in the popular publications (and even some respectable science journals). DNA contains its information in the sequence of four chemical compounds known as nucleotides, abbreviated C,G,A,T. Groups of three of these at a time are read by complex translation machinery in the cell to determine the sequence of 20 different types of amino acids to be incorporated into proteins. The human DNA has at least 3,000,000,000 nucleotides in sequence. Chimp DNA has not been anywhere near fully sequenced so that a proper comparison can be made (using a lot of computer time to do itimagine comparing two sets of 1000 large books, sentence by sentence, for similarities and differences!).

Where did the 97% similarity come from then? It was inferred from a fairly crude technique called DNA hybridization where small parts of human DNA are split into single strands and allowed to reform double strands (duplex) with chimp DNA.2 However, there are various reasons why DNA does or does not hybridize, only one of which is degree of similarity (homology).3 Consequently, this somewhat arbitrary figure is not used by those working in molecular homology (other parameters, derived from the shape of the melting curve, are used). Why has the 97% figure been popularised then? One can only guess that it served the purpose of evolutionary indoctrination of the scientifically illiterate.


See this article for for more information on this subject.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v19/i1/dna.asp

This link will point you to dozens of articles relating to DNA similarity.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/genetics.asp