Author Topic: Anarchism, split form the (De)Motivator thread. :)  (Read 12213 times)

Fly320s

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Re: Anarchism, split form the (De)Motivator thread. :)
« Reply #50 on: September 02, 2007, 12:50:55 PM »
I demand the government give me anarchy.  Now!!

Raise taxes to pay for national anarchy!!
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Tallpine

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Re: Anarchism, split form the (De)Motivator thread. :)
« Reply #51 on: September 02, 2007, 05:36:41 PM »
We just need to start a National Anarchist Party (NAP)

Which reminds me ...  yawn
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Tallpine

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Re: Anarchism, split form the (De)Motivator thread. :)
« Reply #52 on: September 03, 2007, 07:27:05 AM »
Just thought I'd add this quote that I ran across:

Quote
Government is not eloquence, it is not reason. It is force. And like fire, makes a dangerous servant and a fearful master.

~ George Washington

Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

The Rabbi

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Re: Anarchism, split form the (De)Motivator thread. :)
« Reply #53 on: September 03, 2007, 08:32:31 AM »
This from the man who quashed the Whiskey Rebellion...
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Tallpine

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Re: Anarchism, split form the (De)Motivator thread. :)
« Reply #54 on: September 03, 2007, 12:08:04 PM »
Quote
This from the man who quashed the Whiskey Rebellion...

Proving that no government can be trusted  laugh
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

jeepmor

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Re: Anarchism, split form the (De)Motivator thread. :)
« Reply #55 on: September 03, 2007, 10:14:21 PM »
Great reading, but, do you guys ever get...outside?

I enjoy all your arguments, but I have to take most folks position that anarchy is a pipe dream.  Once you get enough people together, you need some order like firemen, policeman, hospitals and what not.  It's just a fact that getting a lot of people together in one place, it's a natural order to institute standards and regulations on how commerce and such takes place. Currency for example, levels the playing field and creates a standard.  Just as gold did before paper became the norm.

We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office.

"Oh, so now you're saying they don't have a right to whine about their First Amendment rights?  Fascist."  -fistul

Perd Hapley

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Re: Anarchism, split form the (De)Motivator thread. :)
« Reply #56 on: September 04, 2007, 01:45:40 AM »
Fascist. 
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Tallpine

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Re: Anarchism, split form the (De)Motivator thread. :)
« Reply #57 on: September 04, 2007, 04:42:09 AM »
Quote
Once you get enough people together, you need some order

Of course - but the question is whether that order is imposed by government, or maintained by some other social structures?

If people are capable of getting together and forming a government for the common good, why would they not be capable of developing other social structures to accomplish the same thing?


BTW, I do get outside - we have horses and I've taken several rides over the weekend.  Though it's been really hot outside in the afternoons.
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

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Re: Anarchism, split form the (De)Motivator thread. :)
« Reply #58 on: September 04, 2007, 05:15:00 AM »
Quote
Once you get enough people together, you need some order

Of course - but the question is whether that order is imposed by government, or maintained by some other social structures?


What is the practical difference between those two things?
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Tallpine

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Re: Anarchism, split form the (De)Motivator thread. :)
« Reply #59 on: September 04, 2007, 08:02:40 AM »
Quote
What is the practical difference between those two things?

Basically, motivation versus brute force.

I suppose it only works well in cohesive societies, which tends to keep the scope smaller (which in itself is a good thing).  Centralized societies with "one size fits all" rules are going to need to use more force to maintain order in all districts.

Some previous societies (and still our own to some degree) used social standards developed over a long time to maintain order.  Violate, and you might be subject to shunning, banning (exile), or maybe corporal punsishment or execution in severe instances.  Banning was pretty much a death sentence anyway unless you could find another society to take you in.  Prisons were largely unknown, and pretty much impractical anyway, without a "state" (or king) to run them.

As much as I hate to admit it, I suppose religion plays a large role in developing a cohesive society.  But behavioral standards and customs are probably more important to many individuals than a specific faith.  Those customs would include things like how land ownership is determined, how transactions are accomplished, etc.  Even today, most human interaction consists of voluntary exchanges that do not require state management.  There are exceptions of course, and that is where you get into "dispute resolution."

Under a "state", dispute resolution is monopolized by government, which then backs up its verdict with monopolized force.  But who is to say that a society is not only capable of but would be better off with competive systems of dispute resolution?  You might argue that we already do that now with private arbitration, but that only serves to support and not negate the proposition.

Violent crimes against persons and property would tend to be met with reciprocal violence in defense, unfettered by state rules of monopolized force.  There are examples of this in our own society: for instance when there was a police strike in a city and crime went down instead of up, because the criminals were more afraid of citizens than the police.

No society is going to be "utopia" but that shouldn't prevent discussion and striving for something maybe better than what we live in now.  A few hundred years ago in most of Europe, a monarchy was the only conceivable option.  But then those unruly children in the British Colonies in North America got this wild idea about a "democratic republic."  Why should we assume that we have reached a pinnacle of perfection, especially when we seem to be slipping into democratized tryanny?
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

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Re: Anarchism, split form the (De)Motivator thread. :)
« Reply #60 on: September 04, 2007, 08:10:00 AM »
Quote
What is the practical difference between those two things?

Basically, motivation versus brute force.


That is a difference that stems only from the size and cohesiveness of the group, not from any fundamental difference.  And Plymouth Colony used a lot of brute force.
As for alternate means of dispute resolution, there are plenty in the U.S.  Muslims (I think) have their own courts, Jews I know have their own courts, people use arbitrators of various kinds all the time.  The only difference between those and the gov't courts is the ability to use force to back up a ruling.
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Tallpine

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Re: Anarchism, split form the (De)Motivator thread. :)
« Reply #61 on: September 04, 2007, 08:19:34 AM »
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The only difference between those and the gov't courts is the ability to use force to back up a ruling.

Okay, there's your difference then Wink


Quote
Plymouth Colony used a lot of brute force

Yeah, and a lot of their spiritual/intellectual descendants seem to be running the government.  sad
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

roo_ster

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Re: Anarchism, split form the (De)Motivator thread. :)
« Reply #62 on: September 04, 2007, 08:24:00 AM »
Quote
Once you get enough people together, you need some order

Of course - but the question is whether that order is imposed by government, or maintained by some other social structures?


What is the practical difference between those two things?
IMO, pretty much only scope and maturity.  The more time passes, the more some folks want to specialize and leave some functions to others.  The more time passes, the more some folks want done or the more those that shouldered the burden of execution want authority.

Tallpine's and others' anarchism seems an awful lot like Athenian democracy:
    * Little/no permanent gov't.
    * Big projects taken on by prominent citizens for their own reasons.
    * Big decisions effecting the community put to a vote of all and addressed with ad-hoc solutions.

The main difference between Tallpine Anarchism and Athenian democracy would be that the decisions assembly of citizens could not be enforced if one member did not want to go along?
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wooderson

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Re: Anarchism, split form the (De)Motivator thread. :)
« Reply #63 on: September 04, 2007, 08:25:34 AM »
Quote
What is the practical difference between those two things?
To move on a tangent, this is one of the issues I have with American libertarians (or god help us, Objectivists) - the view that 'force' and 'power' are wielded only by a 'government.' (ex. - the state can legalize interracial marriage all it wants, but if the local culture is actively hostile to interracial couples, then...)

This is the prime difference between left-'anarchists' and anarcho-capitalists/Objectivists/et al. - opposition to hierarchies vs. opposition to government. The former would argue that the latter's society would essentially devolve into de facto feudal states led by an aristocracy of wealth.
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Re: Anarchism, split form the (De)Motivator thread. :)
« Reply #64 on: September 04, 2007, 10:55:20 AM »
Quote
The only difference between those and the gov't courts is the ability to use force to back up a ruling.

Okay, there's your difference then Wink

The one system is voluntary by all members, the other theoretically is. 


Quote
Plymouth Colony used a lot of brute force

Yeah, and a lot of their spiritual/intellectual descendants seem to be running the government.  sad
[/quote]

great response. rolleyes
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Anarchism, split form the (De)Motivator thread. :)
« Reply #65 on: September 04, 2007, 12:39:19 PM »
Quote
Plymouth Colony used a lot of brute force

Yeah, and a lot of their spiritual/intellectual descendants seem to be running the government.  sad


That would be nice, but I fear our current ruling class (meaning all parties) is not quite up to that standard of intelligence, virtue or common sense.    smiley
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Tallpine

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Re: Anarchism, split form the (De)Motivator thread. :)
« Reply #66 on: September 04, 2007, 02:58:38 PM »
Quote
That would be nice, but I fear our current ruling class (meaning all parties) is not quite up to that standard of intelligence, virtue or common sense.

 shocked

Oh, so we're still a little short in the religious persecution department ?
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Perd Hapley

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Re: Anarchism, split form the (De)Motivator thread. :)
« Reply #67 on: September 04, 2007, 06:27:12 PM »
Oy.  It's funny how some people obsess on one aspect of a group such as the New England Puritans.  Glad you pointed out that theocracy angle.  No one knew about that, I'm sure.   undecided
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Tallpine

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Re: Anarchism, split form the (De)Motivator thread. :)
« Reply #68 on: September 05, 2007, 06:59:49 AM »
No, I think it's great for the Puritans to go off and form their own community and live according to their own standards (including their failed attempt at communism).

It's another good argument for de-centralization.

I just don't want them running everything for the rest of us, even though you would be more than happy with that.


No one really wants to discuss how a stateless society might be organized, so I will say no more.
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

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Re: Anarchism, split form the (De)Motivator thread. :)
« Reply #69 on: September 05, 2007, 07:37:29 AM »

No one really wants to discuss how a stateless society might be organized, so I will say no more.

There doesn't seem like much to discuss since that's pretty much an oxymoron.  You can look at insular communities living in heterogeneous states and get some idea.  I am thinking of Jewish communities in E.Europe pre-WW1, overseas Chinese, Bahai in Iran, probably a few others.  None of them, afaik, is a model of personal freedom and individuality.  Virtually all of them rely on communal pressure to conform to ideals to maintain their identity.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Anarchism, split form the (De)Motivator thread. :)
« Reply #70 on: September 05, 2007, 12:43:07 PM »
No, I think it's great for the Puritans to go off and form their own community....I just don't want them running everything for the rest of us, even though you would be more than happy with that.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!  No, not really.  They'd expel me for heresy, and I'd have to go found Connecticut, or something. 
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MechAg94

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Re: Anarchism, split form the (De)Motivator thread. :)
« Reply #71 on: September 06, 2007, 02:31:27 PM »
So what is the difference between this Anarchism and Karl Marx's communism?  Sounds like essentially the same thing to me.

And neither will work because they deny the basic selfish nature of all men and the basically destructive nature of some men.  Some people just get their kicks off power.  I doubt Karl Marx ever envisioned Stalin, but he helped create him. 
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wooderson

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Re: Anarchism, split form the (De)Motivator thread. :)
« Reply #72 on: September 06, 2007, 02:52:08 PM »
Quote
So what is the difference between this Anarchism and Karl Marx's communism?  Sounds like essentially the same thing to me.
There was a major and acrimonious divide between the Marxists and the 'libertarians' at the time of the First International. Bakunin considered Marx to be an authoritarian figure and generally felt that a government-level 'dictatorship of the proletariat' would become a self-perpetuating ruling class. (nb: this was almost fifty years before Lenin, vanguardism and the Bolsheviks instituting one-party rule - the anarchists were rather prescient in their critiques)

Like many modern democratic socialists and anarchists, the early groups were influenced economically by Marx but didn't hold to his political aims.

Quote
I doubt Karl Marx ever envisioned Stalin, but he helped create him.
Arguable, but irrelevant as a critique of the ideology (or broader ideas).

Jesus didn't envision the Inquisition, but 'no Jesus no Inquisition.' (And yes, if not for Christianity they would have simply persecuted under a different guise - but I daresay history has shown us that a dictator doesn't need Marx to justify his reign either.)
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Anarchism, split form the (De)Motivator thread. :)
« Reply #73 on: September 06, 2007, 04:18:21 PM »
So what is the difference between this Anarchism and Karl Marx's communism?  Sounds like essentially the same thing to me. 

If I recall correctly, Marx believed that after the proletariat took control and the New Communist Man became the norm, the state would "whither away," resulting in harmonious anarchy.  But I haven't read about that stuff for a few years, now, may be fuzzy on the details.
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freakazoid

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Re: Anarchism, split form the (De)Motivator thread. :)
« Reply #74 on: September 17, 2007, 08:34:36 PM »
Yay, I'm back, Cheesy And this thread should be moved to the politics section.

I have finally got my Journals of Lewis and Clark out of storage.

Lewis, Monday August 19, 1805
"  each individual is his own sovereign master, and acts from the dictates of his own mind; the authority of the Cheif being nothing more than mere admonition supported by the influence which the propiety of his own exammplery conduct may have acquired him in the minds of the individuals who composed the band.    the title of cheif is not hereditary, nor can I learn that there is any cerimony of instalment, or other epoh in the life of a Cheif from which his title as such can be dated.    in fact every man is a chief, but all have not an equal influence on the minds of the other members of the community, and he who happens to enjoy the greatest share of confidence is the principal Chief."

Quote
If I recall correctly, Marx believed that after the proletariat took control and the New Communist Man became the norm, the state would "whither away," resulting in harmonious anarchy.  But I haven't read about that stuff for a few years, now, may be fuzzy on the details

That is the gist of it. Socialism  would lead to communism which would leave to anarchy, because the state was supposed to "whither away", which we anarchists know will not be the case.
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