Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Waitone on May 20, 2013, 06:59:39 PM
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I thought microstamping had been killed off because it is technologically not feasible.
Well, seems CA just implemented the technology thanks to a law signed by a former republican govinator.
http://www.sacbee.com/2013/05/18/5430874/calif-law-takes-effect-on-microstamping.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172123053
http://www.montereyherald.com/news/ci_23276318/california-enforce-micro-stamping-gun-law
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I certainly am not counting on it, but this would be a perfect opportunity for manufacturers to halt all gun sales to California, especially to law enforcement.
The one article stated, and I did not know, that the inventor of the technology "is an NRA member". Hmm.
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Being an NRA member means nothing, heck obama could be an NRA member if he took 5 mins off of his golf game and ordered a staffer to shake down a donor and send in the $25 for him. :rofl:
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Being an NRA member means nothing, heck obama could be an NRA member if he took 5 mins off of his golf game and ordered a staffer to shake down a donor and send in the $25 for him. :rofl:
This is true. My interest would be if the guy was a long standing NRA member or someone who joined just prior to or just after starting work on the tech.
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How does this work? The article said it stamps the bullet with the gun''s serial number. Was this poor writing, or is this accurate?
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How does this work? The article said it stamps the bullet with the gun''s serial number. Was this poor writing, or is this accurate?
If it works as I have recalled, it's poor writing. It stamps the case with (possibly) the gun's serial number.
It does this by having a "microstamp" on the firing pin.
So, an EASILY defeated "safety measure" that will do as much for preventing or solving crime as the Maryland "ballistic fingerprinting."
In other words, nothing. But it will create a hassle and extra cost for legitimate gun owners.
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In other words, nothing. But it will create a hassle and extra cost for legitimate gun owners.
I'm thinking, from what I'm reading on state gun forums, that there is sufficient evidence for a lawsuit to at least temporarily halt this again. That said, and I wouldn't want to be the innocent party involved, but I would pull up a chair with popcorn in hand to watch the first trial for a shooting, with one of these cases as evidence, that happened to be picked up at a gun range and planted at the scene of a crime that occurred while that gun's owner was at work surrounded by dozens of witnesses.
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Sounds like many people in CA will be revolver shooters.
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Sounds like many people in CA will be revolver shooters.
Or use one of those AR brass-catchers.
A neat rig would be an AR with a 5.7 upper with the 50rd stick mag up there, and it ejects out the bottom of the mag well into a recepticle to store your spent brass.
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Brass catcher. Sounds like they should legislate that since it will slow down magazine changes.
Micro stamping is gun control. Brass catchers would be "green" and encourage people to save or recyle their brass.
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So the idea, if I understand, is that the firing pin would essentially "stamp" the serial number on the primer. A few thoughts immediately jump to mind:
1. A number is useless without a list to compare it to. So, for this to work, you need a database of numbers to refer to. Which means registration of all firearms.
2. If we're talking about microscopic stamping, isn't this also something that could be defeated by simply rubbing the face of the firing pin with sandpaper far a few seconds?
3. If the pin has to be "serialed" to match the gun, wouldn't repairs or replacement parts also have to be controlled and restricted?
4. Is there a grandfather clause in any of this legislation, or will any old gun become illegal for lack of an appropriate firing pin?
5. What about rimfires?
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Are serial numbers unique to each gun? If Colt puts serial number C12345 on a pistol, does that mean Glock can't use the same number? Can Remington put C12345 on a rifle or shotgun?
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You can use the breechface or bolt face rather than the firing pin to stamp the brass or primer, much more easily.
Replacing the firing pin will not defeat it. And it could be so light to the naked eye as to be effectively hidden.
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You can use the breechface or bolt face rather than the firing pin to stamp the brass or primer, much more easily.
Replacing the firing pin will not defeat it. And it could be so light to the naked eye as to be effectively hidden.
Yes, but if you finely sand the entire bolt and/or breechface, hidden or not, it will be gone or at least marred.
Which, if I recall correctly, was a problem in any case: the "stamp" wasn't always legible on the case/primer.
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So the idea, if I understand, is that the firing pin would essentially "stamp" the serial number on the primer. A few thoughts immediately jump to mind:
1. A number is useless without a list to compare it to. So, for this to work, you need a database of numbers to refer to. Which means registration of all firearms.
2. If we're talking about microscopic stamping, isn't this also something that could be defeated by simply rubbing the face of the firing pin with sandpaper far a few seconds?
3. If the pin has to be "serialed" to match the gun, wouldn't repairs or replacement parts also have to be controlled and restricted?
4. Is there a grandfather clause in any of this legislation, or will any old gun become illegal for lack of an appropriate firing pin?
5. What about rimfires?
In the case of #1, CA essentially already has "registration" of handguns, and is starting the same for rifles in 2014. But yes, the ionly way this works is with a database that the .gov has full access to.
In the case of #4, it is (for now) only new semi-auto handguns that manufacturers want to add to the CA "safe handgun roster". All semi-autos currently on the CA roster are exempt, as are all revolvers. I would not expect this to last long, which at some point goes back to my first post in this topic - manufacturers are going to have to decide if it's worth it to sell to CA ( I say no), and if they decide it isn't, for it to stick, they have to forego "LEO exemptions". Anything less, and they play right into the CA legislator’s hands.
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Funny, if I was involved in the decision-making process, I'd insist that LEO wepaons also be stamped, which would make officer-involved shooting easier to investigate. Right? >:D
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Are serial numbers unique to each gun? If Colt puts serial number C12345 on a pistol, does that mean Glock can't use the same number? Can Remington put C12345 on a rifle or shotgun?
A world wide, industry wide standard, with blocks assigned to manufacturers, a la MAC addresses on networking equipment. Which of course does nothing for the billion or so working firearms out there.
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You can use the breechface or bolt face rather than the firing pin to stamp the brass or primer, much more easily.
Replacing the firing pin will not defeat it. And it could be so light to the naked eye as to be effectively hidden.
So, polishing the breechface to improve feeding will be forbidden?
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I would really like to hear one of these weasels explain, during a press conference, why law enforcement agencies should be exempt from microstamping. Because cops are more trustworthy than private citizens? I wonder how many people in the audience would laugh out loud.
There is another angle that gun companies could use with this. Rather than refuse to sell to LE, they could only offer new guns with microstamping technology, for two or three times the cost. "Sure, we'll sell you the new Glock 21SF, but it has to be the 21SF/MS. You can have them for the bargain price of $1100 each."
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There is another angle that gun companies could use with this. Rather than refuse to sell to LE, they could only offer new guns with microstamping technology, for two or three times the cost. "Sure, we'll sell you the new Glock 21SF, but it has to be the 21SF/MS. You can have them for the bargain price of $1100 each."
There is no question that micro-stamping will already significantly add to the cost, especially if they were only to do it for sales to one state, because who outside of CA would buy a microstamped handgun? This is one where basic supply and demand should play a clear role.
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There is no question that micro-stamping will already significantly add to the cost, especially if they were only to do it for sales to one state, because who outside of CA would buy a microstamped handgun? This is one where basic supply and demand should play a clear role.
Simple - just don't sell any guns to Califrickia :P
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Simple - just don't sell any guns to Califrickia :P
That's what I said.
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Can anyone confirm or deny the lifespan of the micro stamp? I have heard that they only last 10-20 rounds. I am guessing a little dry firing with snap caps could take care of the stamp in no time.
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ny had just removed a law that was determined useless. every new gun sold in this state needed a spent casing to be on file with the state police. so if the gun didn't come with one the new owner needed to pay out of pocket to have the ffl drive to a range and fire it to save the brass. it would cost between $15-30 extra if the manufactur didn't send one with the gun.
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The companies should simply say they implemented it, but not actually do it, and claim that the brass has to be sent back to them for analysis, and then charge a lot for the work. >:D
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I see a new business opportunity arising in Nevada for replacement firing pins. =D
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FYI, the California law requires the microstamp to be in at least two locations:
Penal Code section 31910, subdivision (b)(7)(A)
a semiautomatic pistol must be equipped
with microstamping technology-i.e., a microscopic array of characters that identify the make,
model, and serial number of the pistol, etched or otherwise imprinted in two or more places on
the interior surface or internal working parts of the pistol, and that are transferred by imprinting
on each cartridge case when the firearm is fired.
Simple - just don't sell any guns to Califrickia :P
That is precisely what the gun-grabbers want.
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I see a new business opportunity arising in Nevada for replacement firing pins. =D
No, it can't be. That's where the ammo and reloading component depots are gonna be when that bill gets signed. We'll have to spread the wealth and let AZ and OR have a go at supplying other parts. :laugh:
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FYI, the California law requires the microstamp to be in at least two locations:
Penal Code section 31910, subdivision (b)(7)(A)
That is precisely what the gun-grabbers want.
I think he means no guns to anyone, government agencies included.
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I thought AZ and OR had the manly-flush toilets and incandescent bulb market cornered? :angel:
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I think he means no guns to anyone, government agencies included.
:facepalm:
Well . . . never mind, then.
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Is it even technically feasible? That's probably the real point -- an effective ban on affordable semiautos (except to law enforcement, of course.)
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Is it even technically feasible? That's probably the real point -- an effective ban on affordable semiautos (except to law enforcement, of course.)
Bingo.
This requirement is unlikely to result in mass-produced semiauto pistols. It's more likely to result in no more semiautos being added to California's "approved handgun" list. In time, the state will probably add a microstamping requirement to revolvers, then to long guns, with predictable results.
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a semiautomatic pistol must be equipped
with microstamping technology-i.e., a microscopic array of characters that identify the make,
model, and serial number of the pistol, etched or otherwise imprinted in two or more places on
the interior surface or internal working parts of the pistol, and that are transferred by imprinting
on each cartridge case when the firearm is fired.
so, the firing pin and the bolt face? would the bolt face even hit it hard enough to imprint?
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so, the firing pin and the bolt face? would the bolt face even hit it hard enough to imprint?
I'm thinking maybe chamber for imprint #2 and it prints on case expansion?
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I'm thinking maybe chamber for imprint #2 and it prints on case expansion?
It'll add friction during extraction and smear lengthwise. It'd have to be a 2 dimensional barcode, HK-style on those awful semiauto beasts of theirs but not quite as blatant.
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It'll add friction during extraction and smear lengthwise. It'd have to be a 2 dimensional barcode, HK-style on those awful semiauto beasts of theirs but not quite as blatant.
That would have been my first thought, but I'm hearing a lot of talk about barrel replacement to circumvent. So maybe since the case contracts very slightly after maximum expansion it allows the stamp to remain legible? No idea, just trying to figure out why barrels are part of the conversation on both sides of the issue.
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HK-style brass out of my 9mm or .45acp would distress me greatly in regards to reloading the brass.
How many times can you maim the wall of the brass like that before it falls apart?
And how much brass shaving or debris are you flinging into the action of your pistol during cycling?
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You know, they have kits for fire-lapping barrels by embedding fine abrasives in bullets; when the bullet is fired, it laps the barrel, smoothing out imperfections. (Not recommended for high-quality barrels, but if you've got one that's rough, pitted, or shot out, it can yield an improvement.)
Why wouldn't someone be able to do the same with brass cases? The amount of metal removed won't appreciably change chamber or headspace dimensions, but it seems that within a box or two, there's a good chance that any microstamp will be polished out. And it will look a lot like normal wear. (Hmmm . . . a Nevada-based business selling "Chamber Polishing Brass Cased Ammo" might be an opportunity for someone. >:D )
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They make chamber hones right? You should be able to hone the stamp off pretty easily.
All that being said, this is about getting makers to stop selling to the public in CA not about anything else.
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rookies
you need to put someone elses code on alice cooper style
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