Upstate tells NYC where they want to go

[vaskidmark]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/upstate-york-towns-seceding-pennsylvania-29293483

Plenty of people leave New York state but in a job-hungry stretch of upstate, folks talk about staying put and seceding to Pennsylvania.

Local officials stung by a recent decision to ban natural gas fracking have raised the idea of redrawing the Keystone State's border. Even though they don't expect it to happen, members of the Upstate New York Towns Association hope the specter of secession will result in something — anything — good for a struggling part of the state peering enviously over the state line.

"It's not like were looking across the border into Mexico or even looking across the border at Canada," said Candor supervisor Bob Riggs, whose rural town is one of about 15 in the association. "We're looking across the border into the United States, and it's very different."

....

Town of Conklin Supervisor Jim Finch said he mentioned secession jokingly the day the fracking ban was announced, after a reporter asked him what they would do next. But he said a recent constituent survey sent out by state Sen. Thomas Libous that included a question about seceding to Pennsylvania "popped the question right to the top."

....

While it's doubtful it will come to pass, there is some chance that it will move the liberal nanny-state political outlook of NYC/Cuomo.

In the meantime - 

stay safe.

[Ben]

While it's doubtful it will come to pass, there is some chance that it will move the liberal nanny-state political outlook of NYC/Cuomo.

I dunno. We talk about splitting up CA a lot (both right and left), but it always seems to amount to just blowing off steam. It would make a lot of sense, both in CA and NY, but it just seems there are too many hurdles to make it happen, outside of full on SHTF.

[Brad Johnson]

Taking the thought experiment and running with it... what would the process of secession involve?

Brad

[Angel Eyes]

I dunno. We talk about splitting up CA a lot (both right and left), but it always seems to amount to just blowing off steam. It would make a lot of sense, both in CA and NY, but it just seems there are too many hurdles to make it happen, outside of full on SHTF.

If the State of Jefferson ever happened, I would be sorely tempted to move there.

[Ben]

If the State of Jefferson ever happened, I would be sorely tempted to move there.

I'd be your neighbor. I like almost that entire area.

[dm1333]

I'd move into Jefferson in a heartbeat.  Until then I'll keeping looking a little further south and east.

[vaskidmark]

Taking the thought experiment and running with it... what would the process of secession involve?

Brad

Secession would be a complex procedure involving two states and the federal government. New York officials would have to sign off on a deal costing them land, people and political clout in Washington. Also, it would require New York's governor and political leaders to acknowledge that their counterparts in Pennsylvania could do a better job representing their own people.

I'm guessing that the actual process would be along the lines of -

- the 2 states agree to the transfer (not actually secession) of land between the 2 states (see creation of DC and return of land from DC to Virginia)
-          this includes monies exchanged or "demands" (the legal term) for tax equalization for loss of tax base (??)
- the states agree to the changes in representation
- the courts in both states approve the proposed boundaries of new districts created by the transfer of land
- Congress blesses the transfer of real estate and the changes in representation (a pro forma action?)  (Why the Senate has to be involved in a possible change in the House of Representatives is still mystifying me.)
- Congress appoves a timetable for school kids to be held accountable for being able to draw outlines of the 2 changed states (??)

I'm guessing that the admission by NY that PA counterparts could do a better job representing the involved population is also a SWAG that the author threw out there to make the process seem difficult.

The whole use of the term "secession" is a red herring.  Nobody is leaving the Union.  Two states are mutually changing the arrangement of borders between themselves.  Cf. the changes wrought by the completion of the Mason-Dixon survey, the creation of the State of Maine out of Plymough Plantation, the absorption of the Cherokee Strip just to suggest a few possibilities.  Also the failure of Virginia to reclaim what had become West Virginia after the cessation of hostilities.)

Please feel free to chime in and make your own pronouncements/guesses.   The odds are whatever you write will be more accurate than what the Constitutional Professor in the Oval Office will offer.

stay safe.

[230RN]

After the antis in our Legislature succeeded in pushing their magazine limitations and UBC bullbleep into law, there were noises made by several of our northeastern counties that they'd like to secede.  (ETA: From the State of Colorado, not the Union.)  Not really serious, of course, but between that well-publicized sentiment and the recall of two of our anti legislators, it got the attention of the rest of the State.

The thing is, that as I see it, the enormous disparity of political power between the urban areas and the rural areas began to be a topic of discussion --a "raising of consciousness," if you will.  

Not that I expect much to be done about this "lock" on political power by the cities very soon.  After all, once the lock is in, the lock is in. Like with undocumented folks given the right to vote... once the lock is in, the lock is in.  And like with redistricting*... once the lock is in, the lock is in.

But the flyover folks are becoming more aware of this problem.

They might get off their duffs and start voting in directions that will alleviate the problem in the long term.

Terry

*  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerrymandering

[Firethorn]

I'd probably toss a few votes by the affected population.  

I wonder what would happen if they went 'full up non-violent derp'?  IE:
1.  Voting to secede.  
2.  Ceasing to remit NY taxes to the state(they're no longer part of it, remember?)
3.  Ceasing to recognize the authority of NY officials (IE they ignore NY police officers to the best of their ability)
3a.  If the NY officers push things, they could find themselves arrested for various things.  Then becomes a pissing match, authority wise.

etc...

[RoadKingLarry]

Just a bunch of vile rightwingchristianextremistdomestic terrorists.  A few drone strikes will set them to toeing the party line. Can't   have common folks Getting the idea that they can upset the gravy train like that.

[Mannlicher]

bottom line is:  Those in charge now, will stay in charge, and they have a vested interest in keeping the geographical status quo.  Nothing is going to come of these movements to split States.  Nothing.  Ever.

[230RN]

The whole use of the term "secession" is a red herring.  Nobody is leaving the Union.

They mean secede from the State they're in, not from the Union, to either form another separate State or to be annexed to an adjoining State.

I changed my former post to emphasize this.

[lee n. field]

The thing is, that as I see it, the enormous disparity of political power between the urban areas and the rural areas began to be a topic of discussion --a "raising of consciousness," if you will.  

It's everywhere.

Excepting possibly the situation I saw in New Hampshire when we visited.  The influence of the dominant megapolis (Boston) is moderated because it's in another of those tiny little things they call states out east.

[lee n. field]

They mean secede from the State they're in, not from the Union, to either form another separate State or to be annexed to an adjoining State.

Are there other categories?  "Territory" possibly.

[just Warren]

How about a "jubilee" period where all the disaffected folks who meet certain criteria can break away from their state or merge with an existing state?

Make it two years where Congress automatically agrees to vote to allow the new state or the merge. In addition during this time period counties can do the same thing even if they do not want to leave the state they can alter their borders to better fit their current demographics. Also bits of cities can break away into their own smaller municipalities.

In addition to automatic approval by Congress these changes do not require the approval of the legislature or population of the state/county/city that is being broken away from. It only requires a majority of folks in the breaking away area for it to happen. In the case of merging with another state/county/city then that entity's legislature would have to approve.

Of course this means that we will likely end up with an odd or non-round number of states. I hope that doesn't trigger anyone's OCD.

On top of all that it is well past time to increase the number of Representatives and electoral votes. I'm thinking  a trebling of both at a minimum with the distribution of electoral votes massaged to to encourage POTUS candidates to visit more states and to take away the tactic of mainly concentrating on certain "key states".

[RevDisk]

PA has 50% more ground troops, more tanks and more tube artillery. Roughly matched on aviation assets, except NY has more Reaper drones and airlift capacity. DOD stripped PA of fighters, and more importantly, our A-10's. Bastards. If we still had our A-10's, NY would secede us the territory without a scuffle.

Otherwise, operationally, the Governor of PA would have two tactical choices. Defensive. Forward deploy bulk of units to Scranton, send a combined arms force of armor, infantry and tube arty to secessionist zones. If NY objects, crater their major highways. There's no way NY has the ability to dig out heavy armor with infantry support, unless the USAF lent them a lot of air support.

Offensive, do a thunder run with damn near all of our armor up Route 87 to their Albany. Book time for that run is 4 and a half hours. Two and a half hours would be in enemy territory. It could be made in 3.5 hours. I'd just load the Abrams onto low-boys, with the crew in the tank.

Same is in reverse, technically for NY. Except our population would massacre NY troops before they got comfy at our Capital complex. They have 10k troops, but a civvie population that isn't nearly as well armed. A lot of their troops are outside of NYC, and I don't see them as being suicidal.  PA has a huge buffer zone of wilderness that is hostile to NY. Their buffer zone would prefer to be part of PA.

[lee n. field]

If NY objects, crater their major highways.

Given the New Yolk City is what you're really worried about, start with that.  Starve them out.

[vaskidmark]

... If NY objects, crater their major highways. ...

Given the New Yolk City is what you're really worried about, start with that.  Starve them out.

Why would anyone need to waste perfectly good artillery rounds cratering the highway approaches to NYC when Mother Nature is doing such a good job without outside assistance?  The freeze-thaw-freeze cycle for this week may even take out bridge deckings.

stay safe.

[bedlamite]

Maybe this is what he was talking about when he said 57 states ...

[230RN]

Maybe this is what he was talking about when he said 57 states ...

Now that's funny !

For a while after Colorado's new magazine and UBC laws were passed, some of us tossed around the idea that if Oklahoma would grant us a narrow strip on their western panhandle we could petition for annexation to Texas.   

The idea was shot down by an Alaskan member, who bitched that it would probably make Alaska the second biggest State.

 

Terry