Author Topic: Ann Coulter at her best, again  (Read 20663 times)

Monkeyleg

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Re: Ann Coulter at her best, again
« Reply #50 on: November 29, 2008, 11:41:32 PM »
Man, this thread sure has deviated from the original post.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Ann Coulter at her best, again
« Reply #51 on: November 29, 2008, 11:49:53 PM »
I linked to the A-C article where Coulter says outright she opposes legalization to piss off libertarians.

Good grief, son.  She is a HUMORIST.


See, that's a little closer to the topic. ;)
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roo_ster

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Re: Ann Coulter at her best, again
« Reply #52 on: November 30, 2008, 02:26:42 AM »
Good grief, son.  She is a HUMORIST.


See, that's a little closer to the topic. ;)

Libertarians have heard of the concept of "humor," but have yet to experience it themselves...
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Re: Ann Coulter at her best, again
« Reply #53 on: November 30, 2008, 09:34:31 AM »
Nope.  My grandpappy was a conscientious objector.  :)
i'm half japanese  no win there  and the irish half backed the germans against the english
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Perd Hapley

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Re: Ann Coulter at her best, again
« Reply #54 on: November 30, 2008, 02:16:48 PM »
I was going to ask why both halves of you hate America, but apparently the answer is genetics.   =)
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gunsmith

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Re: Ann Coulter at her best, again
« Reply #55 on: November 30, 2008, 09:43:00 PM »
Okay, picture this:

Germans in fighting positions, fighting hard, as Germans are wont to do.

Their assailants are the Brits, AKA, "Tommies."

Germans, as stated, are fighting and continue to do so, up until to point where it is obvious the tommies are going to overrun their position.

At that point, the Germans drop weapons, step back from the parapet, and raise their arms in surrender.

Whereupon, the tommies, with bayonets mounted on SMLEs, shout, "Too late, chum," and run the Germans through the neck with their bayonets.

For more depth, google the following:
"too late, chum"

The concept of "right of storm" from ancient & medieval war is similar.

Also, John Keegan's Face of Battle* examines this.









* You have read this, I assume?  If not, you are just plain wrong.  Get in the right, ASAP.



Oh, this could not have happened, the evidence is right here in this thread :cool:
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Ann Coulter at her best, again
« Reply #56 on: December 01, 2008, 12:58:29 AM »
Okay, picture this:

Germans in fighting positions, fighting hard, as Germans are wont to do.

Their assailants are the Brits, AKA, "Tommies."

Germans, as stated, are fighting and continue to do so, up until to point where it is obvious the tommies are going to overrun their position.

At that point, the Germans drop weapons, step back from the parapet, and raise their arms in surrender.

Whereupon, the tommies, with bayonets mounted on SMLEs, shout, "Too late, chum," and run the Germans through the neck with their bayonets.

For more depth, google the following:
"too late, chum"

The concept of "right of storm" from ancient & medieval war is similar.

Also, John Keegan's Face of Battle* examines this.



Stuff like this never happened.  My grandfather, who personally won the war, told me so.

:P

Stevie-Ray

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Re: Ann Coulter at her best, again
« Reply #57 on: December 03, 2008, 12:18:41 AM »
Speaking of Tommy Roe, I'm getting dizzy reading this. Come on people, everybody can get along. =D
« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 12:22:53 AM by Stevie-Ray »
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HankB

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Re: Ann Coulter at her best, again
« Reply #58 on: December 03, 2008, 09:48:42 AM »
Gunsmith, your late uncle would've been brought up on Articles of War (now known as UCMJ) charges had he executed enemy combatants offering to surrender, whether they were Nazis or otherwise. Bloodlust would have been no excuse, even back then.
This happened in the Pacific Theatre, too. The Japs had a nasty little trick of having one or more of their guys appear to surrender . . . at which point other Japs would shoot the GIs taking the decoys into custody.

This happened more than once.

As a consequence, surrendering - and not being shot out of hand - became a lot harder for the few Japs inclined to do so.
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Iain

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Re: Ann Coulter at her best, again
« Reply #59 on: December 03, 2008, 04:40:09 PM »
Okay, picture this:

Germans in fighting positions, fighting hard, as Germans are wont to do.

Their assailants are the Brits, AKA, "Tommies."

Germans, as stated, are fighting and continue to do so, up until to point where it is obvious the tommies are going to overrun their position.

At that point, the Germans drop weapons, step back from the parapet, and raise their arms in surrender.

Whereupon, the tommies, with bayonets mounted on SMLEs, shout, "Too late, chum," and run the Germans through the neck with their bayonets.

For more depth, google the following:
"too late, chum"

The concept of "right of storm" from ancient & medieval war is similar.

Also, John Keegan's Face of Battle* examines this.









* You have read this, I assume?  If not, you are just plain wrong.  Get in the right, ASAP.

I did google it - and got this - http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/john-hugheswilson-shoot-first-replay-the-tape-later-533993.html

Quote
"Too late, chum!" replied the enraged Australian infantryman as he plunged his bayonet into the German's stomach.

The above story - apocryphal or not, it has the ring of truth - has been taught to generations of graduates of the British Army Staff College as an object lesson in three things: first, how difficult it can be to surrender; second, the realities of men in battle; and last, the niceties of the law of armed conflict.

and this - http://www.mackenzieinstitute.com/2005/newsletter010105.htm
Quote
Another observation from the famous war correspondent Alan Moorhead was of an Australian killing a German machine gunner in North Africa who had kept firing until the Aussies were within a hand-grenade’s toss of his trench. The German then offered surrender, but was told "Too late, chum" (or words to that effect) and gunned down.

You got something else?
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roo_ster

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Re: Ann Coulter at her best, again
« Reply #60 on: December 03, 2008, 05:54:53 PM »
Iain:

I saw those, too.

In addition:
http://law.bepress.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1122&context=expresso

194 Military history is “full of incidents in which a platoon or squad, having taken casualties at the enemy’s hands, finally
prevails.” OSIEL, supra note_, at 120. The proposition that soldiers engaged in a life-or-death struggle should be required,
immediately upon the indication of a desire to surrender on the part of their mortal enemies, to denature the emotions of rage and
fear that impel them forward and to stifle any thoughts of reprisal and revenge for the deaths of their comrades struck 19th and
early 20th century commentators, many of whom were acquainted with combat, as incompatible with reality:
Quote
During the heat of battle there is not much opportunity for . . . pity . . . The soldier’s training does not make him a
machine to such extent that he is a passive weapon. The noise of battle, the sight of the dead and dying, the feeling of
weariness after long hardships, may weaken his sense of fairness, and cause him to refuse to give quarter, and force his
adversary to drink from the bitter cup of Death, even after he has asked for mercy by surrendering.

Quote
t is often impracticable to grant quarter to troops who resist to the last moment. No war right of killing is recognized
in such circumstances; it is simply the necessity of war which justifies the refusal of quarter. It must often happen that
in the storing of a trench, when men’s blood is aboil and all is turmoil and confusion, many are cut down or bayoneted
who wish to surrender[.]

During World War I, several belligerents entered into bilateral agreements governing the status of
POWs, although few were ratified195 and most parties, including the U.S., accepted few if any legal
obligations.196 Although some belligerents recognized expanded customary duties, including the general
obligation to grant quarter,197 in either official policy statements or military manuals,198 most domestic
military legal systems retained explicit exceptions allowing the denial of quarter under categories of
circumstances, including military necessity and in reprisal,199 while others expressly ordered their military
forces to deny quarter in order to sow terror amongst their enemies.200 Moreover, as the very concept of
surrender remained as shameful to the martial mind as it was to the ancients,201 it was not difficult for
several belligerents to indoctrinate their armies, even if they did not issue direct orders, to neither grant
nor request quarter,202 nor was it unusual that units would make this decision independent of their
command structure.203 Throughout World War I, quarter was systematically denied as a standing tactical
procedure, in reprisal for perfidious surrenders and for posing as casualties only to resume combat,204 out
of vengeance,205 and out of alleged necessities, including avoidance of encumbrances.206
On balance, the reflections of commentators assessing the lessons of the “Great War” reinforced
the conclusion that the fabric of a martial custom favoring the grant of quarter continued to be woven
through with exceptions. Where rapidity and secrecy were paramount, such as in the case of a small force
occupying a strategic position in advance of a main body for whom disclosure of their purpose or
encumbrance by POWs would enhance the likelihood of their own destruction207 and compromise the
mission of the larger force,208 or where the exigencies of combat precluded the immediate extension of
protection to all those manifesting an intent to surrender,209 jurists conceded the legitimacy of military
necessity. Although a minority contended that the grant of quarter to persons rendered hors de combat
had reached the status of an absolute obligation from which soldiers were not permitted to derogate,210
most continued to view the grant of quarter through the prism of state practice, from which it appeared as
a custom-based privilege with respect to which the recipient could assert an entitlement only in the
absence of any military necessity that would move the grantor to deny it. In the interwar period,
humanitarians tried to harden this conditional custom into something more protective of soldiers hors de
combat, but the resulting Geneva Conventions of 1929, in some senses simply an expansion upon the
membership of their conventional predecessors, added little more than an additional declaration that
POWs were immune from reprisal and entitled to protection from the moment of capture.211
martial cultures of a number of militaries retained a disdain for the very concept of surrender.215 Thus, as
World War II erupted, the denial of quarter was condoned, whether explicitly or tacitly, by several
leading states, resulting in a round-robin of reprisals.216 Following their invasion of the Philippines,
Japanese troops drove, at bayonet point, over 40,000 Allied captives to their deaths on the Bataan Death
March (1942),217 a number exceeded by the Red Army after the Nazi defeat at Stalingrad (1943) after
which more than 105,000 German POWs were dispatched outright and on the march to gulags.218 German
forces repeatedly denied quarter to Allied troops,219 most notoriously at Malmedy during the Battle of the
Bulge (1944),220 and Allied soldiers reciprocated against Axis troops,221 including a mass execution of SS
camp guards during the liberation of Dachau (1945).222
...
The academic literature in the aftermath of World War II reveals that, despite the progressive
development of IHL and its normative influence upon eminent international lawyers, the martial code had
yet to be displaced as the lodestar guiding state practice. Although statements of absolutism with respect
to the quarter were working their way into some commentaries,231 scholars continued to recognize the




(A lot of references in the footnotes, my excerpts are NOT comprehensive)

See id. at 121-22 (“Troops sent on reconnoitering duties far in advance of the remainder of their forces, or who occupy an
important strategic point, a bridge, exploration of a forest, ravine, or a fortification which is the key to a position for the purposes
of holding until the main body of their forces arrive, must not be too considerate for any small group of the enemy which
frustrates such mission.).”

STEPHEN AMBROSE, CITIZEN SOLDIERS _ (2001) (reporting that the commander of the
101st Airborne Division, General Maxwell Taylor, ordered his troops to deny quarter to German soldiers during OVERLORD).

BRITISH HANDBOOK OF IRREGULAR WARFARE (1942)) (“Never give
the enemy a chance; the days when we could practice the rules of sportsmanship are over . . . Every soldier must be a potential
gangster . . . Remember you are out to kill.”).

267 See FOOKS, supra note_, at 121 n.2 (stating that, after the author, a British officer, came under fire from German
machinegunners who feigned surrender only to inflict heavy casualties before their subsequent capture, the U.S. captors marched
the German POWs before their advance to obtain a ceasefire from other German units).



Other resources:
War and Chivalry by Matthew Strickland
Face of Battle John Keegan (first place I encountered the "chum" terminology)

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roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Iain

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Re: Ann Coulter at her best, again
« Reply #61 on: December 04, 2008, 05:47:14 AM »
So these weren't the ROE's?
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roo_ster

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Re: Ann Coulter at her best, again
« Reply #62 on: December 04, 2008, 02:14:32 PM »
So these weren't the ROE's?

If you are looking for formal ROEs, the instructions by General Taylor look closest to the mark.

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roo_ster

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Re: Ann Coulter at her best, again
« Reply #63 on: December 04, 2008, 05:31:55 PM »
If you are looking for formal ROEs, the instructions by General Taylor look closest to the mark.



Maxwell Taylor? ROE's? One can only imagine - SO - please provide a link or write up the gist of them for us.
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Ron

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Re: Ann Coulter at her best, again
« Reply #64 on: December 04, 2008, 05:56:19 PM »
The subject of this threadjacking reminds me of the scene in Saving Private Ryan when we finally over run the Germans positions. The Germans come running out of the fortification and some try and give up,  but our guys just gunned em down.

I suspect once you finally made it to the top after the carnage on the beach you weren't able to just turn off the very part of you that helped you survive.
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roo_ster

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Re: Ann Coulter at her best, again
« Reply #65 on: December 05, 2008, 12:00:56 AM »
Maxwell Taylor? ROE's? One can only imagine - SO - please provide a link or write up the gist of them for us.

Scroll up, as what you ask is in a previous post.
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Lee

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Re: Ann Coulter at her best, again
« Reply #66 on: December 05, 2008, 08:44:09 PM »
Quote
I suspect once you finally made it to the top after the carnage on the beach you weren't able to just turn off the very part of you that helped you survive.

There were many reasons why surrendering Germans and Japanese were not taken prisoner during WWII.  Rage was one, but the inability to deal with prisoners while on the move was another.  The last thing they wanted was a group of soldiers rearming and continuing the defense.  My dad was in Germany as part of the occupation forces. He was an MP.  He had one officer who occasionally killed German soldiers...this was long after the war was over.  He had been part of the invasion and simply hated them all.  They were at extreme risk if If they got caught stealing and ended up in his jail.  They tended to get killed while "trying to overpower him and escape".  It happened... no denying it. 

Gewehr98

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Re: Ann Coulter at her best, again
« Reply #67 on: December 05, 2008, 09:15:25 PM »
Nobody's denying it. 

Question is, what happened to those who violated the Articles of War in that fashion when caught doing so?

Executing non-belligerents (the proper term for enemy combatants after they surrender) was in itself a quick trip to a U.S. military firing squad or Leavenworth at the minimum - and for very good reason.
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De Selby

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Re: Ann Coulter at her best, again
« Reply #68 on: December 06, 2008, 02:21:42 AM »
Nobody's denying it. 

Question is, what happened to those who violated the Articles of War in that fashion when caught doing so?

Executing non-belligerents (the proper term for enemy combatants after they surrender) was in itself a quick trip to a U.S. military firing squad or Leavenworth at the minimum - and for very good reason.

Exactly-it's always happened, but it's always been considered a crime as well.  Looking at historical incidents where it occurred doesn't prove it was legal anymore than, say, a review of murders in the colonies proves that murder was legal and accepted in the colonies.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Ann Coulter at her best, again
« Reply #69 on: December 06, 2008, 09:19:09 AM »
Colonies?  Hey, that's a good idea.  Let's colonize the Middle East.  Shine up the buckles on your hats, boys.   :laugh:
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Seenterman

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Re: Ann Coulter at her best, again
« Reply #70 on: January 12, 2009, 04:07:59 PM »
One Ann Coulter is a mentally incompetent slag at best, I love how through her omnipresence she knows that every single one of those Gitmo detainees are terrorist.

Quote
They need to be held in some form of extra-legal limbo the rest of their lives, sort of like Phil Spector.

Awesome she advocates special outside the judiciary jails for people. I wonder who she would have judge who serves in these life long sentance prisons, her? Any some of you think liberals are making a power grab with anti gun laws, HA this would beat them all under the table. Instead of a death of 1000 cuts with our gun laws all they would have to do is delcare gun owners as terrorist! But that could never happen . . .

Quote
Far from being sodomized and tortured by U.S. forces -- as Obama's base has wailed for the past seven years --


Umm . . Is that why the worse of the Gitmo Abuse pictures have never been brought to light? It has been