FBI: Mexicans chased away US agents after shooting?

[taurusowner]

crazy talk (with all due respect)

Well we either do something about it now or meet the slow decay of Rome.

[longeyes]

Mexico's behavior has been muy loco for a long time. 

[AZRedhawk44]

crazy talk (with all due respect)

Not really.

A vehicle crossing the border, across the desert, is 99.44% going to be involved in the drug trade, or one of the more well-to-do human smugglers that traffic in blackmail, kidnapping and child prostitution to augment the usual coyote fees.

Got no problem with one that, when ordered to stop and refuses to do so, gets vaporized by a missile or filled with machine gun holes.

And the large trains of humans who walk their way up from Mexico, pay for their guidance by carting in either a large bale of marijuana on their shoulders, or a kilo of cocaine or heroin in their pack.  They're complicit drug smugglers.

I've seen both of these elements first-hand.

[KD5NRH]

Not a full invasion of Mexico mind you, just an outburst to show that we still can wipe them out of we want to.

As I've said elsewhere, invade, annex, keep the mineral rights and give the rest to Puerto Rico as a going-away present.

[Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas]

I honestly don't know any easy solutions to the Mexico problem (especially with the current political climate) - aside from making our country economically worse off than they are.
It doesn't work when only our people are willing to stop illegals from crossing over. Mexico has to help out, and they will need a significant push (or blackjack across the skull) to get them moving in the right direction.
It would be very entertaining to start taking over Mexican oil rigs to offset the costs their illegals are racking up in our country. If the Mexican government is not penalized for its support of illegals, it won't stop doing it. That could mean ousting the government. That could mean a full-scale, decades-long occupation by several hundred thousand (or a few million) US troops.

[taurusowner]

I think it will work even if we're the only ones who want to keep illegals from crossing the border.  But we need to be serious about it.  Not some legislation and a few miles of broken chain link fence.  No wall will keep absolutely everyone across.  But A good one would keep nearly all of them out. Is there any reason why an actual 50' concrete wall with a good 20+ feet underground as well wouldn't stop 95% of illegal traffic?  This isn't something new.  Cities and nations have used walls to keep invaders out for thousands of years.  Nations who are serious about their borders have made wall that are pretty effective.  The US just isn't serious about, hence the chain link fence used in a lot of places.  Replace that with concrete, and another 40' to the height and maybe put some landmines beyond it, and you can't say it won't cut down on illegal immigration  and drug smuggling in a big way.

We don't need Mexico to care about the problem.  We just need to care enough ourselves.

[Tallpine]

a full-scale, decades-long occupation by several hundred thousand (or a few million) US troops

Well, at least the commute would be shorter     

[Seenterman]

Change our border policy to an crosser on foot will be shot, no questions asked, and any vehicles will meet an AT4 or Hellfire, and I bet border traffic would decline to a trickle after only a short while.

Yea!!! Lets slaughter ANYONE who tries to get into our country! Its not like anyone would make a fuss, I mean just look how well everyone took the news that Israel killed 9 block aid runners that were trying to kill Israeli commandos.  No one blew that out of proportion, so of course no one would care if we just shot people who posed no threat!

I wish there would be some military action.  That's something I would like to participate in.  Not a full invasion of Mexico mind you, just an outburst to show that we still can wipe them out of we want to.  Like a snake striking after being prodded too many times, we need to unleash hell if only for a few days,  and  then have a cease fire just so they know who is boss.

And lets kill a bunch of Mexicans in Mexico to make the point that were really serious!!! Sure just launch a couple of ICBM's and the Mexicans will cower in fear of us. Sure they'll be absolutely zero response, not like that'd be an act of war or anything and it would be unpossible for the Mexicans to launch a guerrilla war like in Afghanistan on American soil  .

Of course a wall with proper sensors and an adequate staffing of guards would be able to stop 99% of the illegal immigration problem but killing people is easier and so much more funnnn!

[Ron]

I say let everyone in this hemisphere that wants to come in to work have some form of status that puts them on the books and pays taxes.

No citizenship, no SS/Medicare benefits but legal status to be here and work, on the books.

While we are at it, eliminate all the roadblocks that keep Europeans and and those from Asia from being able to immigrate here.

The more we let in the better.

We don't live in an exclusive club, we live in the United States of America, the place where those who want to work and be free come to chase their dreams.

[AZRedhawk44]

Ron, our country doesn't work that way anymore.

I'd have ABSOLUTELY no problem with wide open borders pending a clean criminal background check (instantly done, no wait) if we didn't have the social safety net that is bankrupting us.

These people get food stamps, welfare, dodge taxes by committing identity fraud and then claiming exemption on their W2's, and visit our hospital emergency rooms without paying.

You can't have open borders with that kind of system.

Kill the welfare state, and I'm good with open borders.

[Nick1911]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.  Mine it and mark it.

[longeyes]

Getting The Fence done is essential, but this is about far more than a fence to keep out more illegal aliens.  The time for The Fence was 1986; you have 20 million illegals--and that's a conservative estimate--already INSIDE our borders, plus their children.  The Fence will do nothing about them.  And The Fence will do even less about the arrayed forces inside government, NGOs, media, the academy, the legal profession, and a host of business interests that lobby incessantly for The Invasion. 

Not only are we NOT about to do a Black Jack Pershing on Mexico we are waging a holding action to stop an amnesty that would radically transform this nation politically, socially, economically, and culturally.  Family reunification policies would ensure that however many millions get legitimized, two, three, five times that number will get access rights.  Say goodbye to America as we've known it, and anyone who believes that a hefty percentage of these newcomers would not be recipients of a hugely magnified welfare state is crazy.  You will have two-thirds of this future America on the dole.  Who will be left to pay the bills, much less defend the values inherited from the Framers?

No, there are no good or easy options left, but we can begin by disabusing ourselves of our fantasies about what's going on right now, both at the border and inside the border and in the capitols of foreign states, and getting clear on what our choices really consist in at this point. I think we are past the point where draconian action can be avoided; the only question is who is going to be on the receiving end of the draconianism.

[longeyes]

I say let everyone in this hemisphere that wants to come in to work have some form of status that puts them on the books and pays taxes.

No citizenship, no SS/Medicare benefits but legal status to be here and work, on the books.

While we are at it, eliminate all the roadblocks that keep Europeans and and those from Asia from being able to immigrate here.

The more we let in the better.

We don't live in an exclusive club, we live in the United States of America, the place where those who want to work and be free come to chase their dreams.

You are talking about an America that never was.

The welfare state is here.  It's growing, not shrinking.  It isn't going away unless our economy drops down a black hole, and if that happens, we will be in Mad Max land, not the land of tea parties.  To stop the welfare state means to tear up the "contract" and start over.  Ready for that?

As for more Europeans, forget it.  The people who run the immigration polices in America and have for decades have no intention of re-europeanizing America.  You can ask yourself why that might be the case.  Better would be if ordinary citizens began to demand answers from the administration and, specifically, the State Dept. about their policies.  It's a little late for that, though, isn't it?  They wanted to change America, and they did.  It is what it is.

You say we don't live in an "exclusive club," and that raises interesting questions about law, sovereignty, and citizenship, but I'll just say that in fact an exclusive club has been running America for quite a while now.  And you are correct, YOU don't live in it.  That doesn't mean it doesn't exist and doesn't play by its own rules.

[Tallpine]

there are no good or easy options left

Secession / devolution 

[S. Williamson]

Secession will never happen.

Devolution is already underway.

[longeyes]

Secession per se may never happen, but fragmentation definitely will.  That may mean de-centralization of government, it may mean chronic anarchy and tribal warlords; it may be an entropic welfare state.  But just as socialism may be sold to Americans under a different and more euphemistic label, so too may secession. 

[AJ Dual]

Legalize drugs, and stage constant random employment raids by ICE, and a few more states pass AZ style laws (And CA enforces the one they had FIRST) and the cross-border shenanigans will drop by 75-95% within a year, no wall needed.

The 25-5% that remain, BP with a better ROE could take care of easily.

The political will for none of this exists however.

[taurusowner]

Secession per se may never happen, but fragmentation definitely will.  That may mean de-centralization of government, it may mean chronic anarchy and tribal warlords; it may be an entropic welfare state.  But just as socialism may be sold to Americans under a different and more euphemistic label, so too may secession. 

This is what I am thinking.  I believe that in my lifetime, and I'm 26, I am going to live through the destruction of the United States.  Not a destruction through war mind you.  But I think it will come in one of 2 ways, probably eventually both.  First, I think that in order to save the social structure that is being broken by the influx of illegals, economic stresses, a collapsing welfare state, etc some form of dictatorship will be formed.  I think the America where we legitimately elect politicians who leave office when their terms are up is going to end, and soon.  Some form of a Police State (a real one, not the delusions of one some anarchists think we have now), will be enacted to preserve the appearance of a functioning nation.  After that collapses, I think the US will quietly dissolve into smaller nations.  Now if you're an optimist, that may be in the form of several smaller nations, but ones that once again honor liberty, achievement, and have some form of technological progress.  A second Renaissance Era so to speak.  If you're a pessimist, like me, I think the breakup of the US into smaller states will also be met with hostilities from abroad and a reversion to a feudal or warlord system within the former US.

[longeyes]

I'll let others guess whether I'm an optimist or a pessimist.  All I can say is beware the death throes of dying giants.  As things devolve, The Rage will grow, and it is always far easier to destroy than create.  The world's had a pretty good run from the Renaissance until today, though not without convulsive "interruptions," but what we haven't had for a long while is the serious potential for all-out cultural homicide.  With today's weapons and with the benighted morality of so many high and low, our historical legacy is in serious jeopardy.  I don't necessarily believe we will all be living in small, walled agrarian communities, but I have the feeling that the civilization of the future will be rather pockmarked.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

This is what I am thinking.  I believe that in my lifetime, and I'm 26, I am going to live through the destruction of the United States.  Not a destruction through war mind you.  But I think it will come in one of 2 ways, probably eventually both.  First, I think that in order to save the social structure that is being broken by the influx of illegals, economic stresses, a collapsing welfare state, etc some form of dictatorship will be formed.  I think the America where we legitimately elect politicians who leave office when their terms are up is going to end, and soon.  Some form of a Police State (a real one, not the delusions of one some anarchists think we have now), will be enacted to preserve the appearance of a functioning nation.  After that collapses, I think the US will quietly dissolve into smaller nations.  Now if you're an optimist, that may be in the form of several smaller nations, but ones that once again honor liberty, achievement, and have some form of technological progress.  A second Renaissance Era so to speak.  If you're a pessimist, like me, I think the breakup of the US into smaller states will also be met with hostilities from abroad and a reversion to a feudal or warlord system within the former US.

i'm twice your age so i've heard your fears at least once before  usually it was fear of blacks though the boat people were pretty scary to some folks for a while too.

[taurusowner]

I don't think the civil rights era can be quite compared to the current situation, though some of the fears may be the same.  Black in the 60s really were just Americans who wanted to be treated like everyone else.  To become part of American society and just live their lives as Americans.

This crisis involves an actual foreign nation encroaching on our borders, with crimes being perpetrated by their formal military and national polices.  Combined with millions of illegals who really don't want to be American.  They don't want to become part of American society, they want  to bleed our society dry.  Factor in the Reconquista types who want to actually take physical land from the US by whatever means necessary and you have a whole new problem far more dangerous than the false fears some had during the Civil rights era.  I don't recall Kenyan soldiers shooting an American police.

And compounding all of this is an American political system that is complicit with our own destruction.  The Welfare State is unsustainable.  But it does buy short term votes.  The politicians have made their feelings clear.  They would rather sell out the future for some votes now.  America had enough stored wealth and prosperity to stave off decay for a long while in the 60s.  When the Great Society and all of FDRs old programs came to fruition, there was enough wealth still around to buy people off.  Not so anymore.  We have millions of people, who are already filled with anger and disdain at American culture, who are expecting the handouts to keep coming.  But when the checks stop coming and the Bridge cards start getting declined, and they will, America is gonna see some rough times.  Far worse that any Detroit or LA riot.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Black in the 60s really were just Americans who wanted to be treated like everyone else.  To become part of American society and just live their lives as Americans.


your experience differs from mine  i find many parallels between then and now  though i am hampered by having actually been around in the 60's as opposed to reading about it

[taurusowner]

Even removing the illegal immigration and culture failure to assimilate into America culture aspects, what is going to happen when half of the country stops getting paid to do nothing?  When they run out of other people's money, what will happen?

America has never defaulted on checks like this before. This is going to be something no one has lived through.  An entire half of the nation, angry and bitter at the US already, suddenly having nothing but their anger.  No matter how long they extend unemployment, or pass new bills funding new programs to keep people happy, the money will run out.  What do you think will happen to the US then?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

America has never defaulted on checks like this before. This is going to be something no one has lived through.

you have a great deal invested in a scenario i don't see coming true.  its the latest iteration of the sky is falling.   we are in some deep kim chee but i suspect we will come out the other side.   we may end up buying it but this ain't it

[taurusowner]

America has never defaulted on checks like this before. This is going to be something no one has lived through.

you have a great deal invested in a scenario i don't see coming true.  its the latest iteration of the sky is falling.   we are in some deep kim chee but i suspect we will come out the other side.   we may end up buying it but this ain't it

You may have lived through a lot, but don't discount what I've seen either.  There are soldiers in my MP compnay who are on  unemployment.  Friends of mine that I've hung out with.  Guys my age, with some education, a lot of potential, and ability.  Guys who are on unemployment because they can be.  Guys who fill out applications just to keep the checks coming, and have no intention of getting a job because they don't have to.

The attitude of America has shifted fundamentally.  We are a nation who passes the buck.  We are a population who always blames someone else first.  We always choose stuff freely given over stuff rightly earned.  It's not just a small segment of the population.  It's nearly everyone. An entire nation who truly thinks that someone else should pay for their house, pay for their gas, pay for their food, pay for their education, teach their kids, feed their kids, watch their kids, pay for their health-care, and so on and so on.  Never before have people been so far detached from the consequences of their own actions.  No job?  The government will find you one and pay you for nothing til they do.  No health-care?  The government will pay for it.  No food?  The government has programs for that.  No house? The government has special houses just for you.  Defaulted on your loan?  The government will bail you out.  Run your business into the ground?  The government will cover you.  No one to watch your kids or feed them?  The government will make sure they get 3 meals a day.  No transportation?  The government will run transportation.  Get hurt? The government will save you.  Victim of a crime?  The government will protect you (and won't allow you to protect yourself)

That is the America of today.  We are a nation of open  palms.  When those palms stop getting filled, I hope you're ready.