Author Topic: Federal end-run around Montana laws...  (Read 18677 times)

Perd Hapley

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Re: Federal end-run around Montana laws...
« Reply #50 on: March 16, 2011, 07:00:06 PM »
I don't necessarily agree with that.  Maybe it's just me; I don't see a lot of value in assaulting individual officers or slashing tires, really. 

I thought his point was that an armed revolt or civil war is (for good or ill) preceded by some lesser acts of violence or destruction of property, indicating a certain level of willingness to kill people and break things.

Look at the events preceding the open warfare of the American Revolution. Loyalist politicians and bureaucrats had their houses burned or torn down. Tar and feathers were employed.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 10:14:51 PM by Fistful »
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roo_ster

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Re: Federal end-run around Montana laws...
« Reply #51 on: March 16, 2011, 09:48:21 PM »
Him and the attorneys.

"Voir Dire - French for 'jury tampering'." - courtesy of Vin Suprynowicz.

Know about and support the idea of jury nullification?  Thanks for showing up, we won't be needing your services today, Juror #42.  Have a nice day.

"Jury nullification?  Never heard of it."

I don't feel obligated to play by the rules of folks who have already broken them, especially those who have proved themselves oath-breakers.
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TommyGunn

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Re: Federal end-run around Montana laws...
« Reply #52 on: March 17, 2011, 12:01:20 AM »
I thought his point was that an armed revolt or civil war is (for good or ill) preceded by some lesser acts of violence or destruction of property, indicating a certain level of willingness to kill people and break things.

Look at the events preceding the open warfare of the American Revolution. Loyalist politicians and bureaucrats had their houses burned or torn down. Tar and feathers were employed.

Perhaps.  The colonists also formed "Committees of Correspondence" and begged King George to ease off, as well.  I suppose you could include the "Boston Tea Party" in the "lesser acts of violence or destruction of property" too. 
Could that mean the present day Tea Party is part of a..... :O  .. oh wait ...no, I do NOT wanna suggest that! [tinfoil]

He may be right.  I really don't know.  I've never actually participated in a revolution before, you know. :angel:

Maybe I could still have a chance---/ SNIP!**/...... :police:
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Federal end-run around Montana laws...
« Reply #53 on: March 17, 2011, 12:41:40 AM »
Perhaps.  The colonists also formed "Committees of Correspondence" and begged King George to ease off, as well.  I suppose you could include the "Boston Tea Party" in the "lesser acts of violence or destruction of property" too. 

Sure. That doesn't mean the violence is necessarily OK, but it serves as an indicator.
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Re: Federal end-run around Montana laws...
« Reply #54 on: March 17, 2011, 01:46:52 AM »
i notice christ isn't tagged in this.  were i the others i would look real hard at him as a possible informer
Jesus ain't no snitch.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Federal end-run around Montana laws...
« Reply #55 on: March 17, 2011, 05:29:13 AM »
lol  same name different guy
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Re: Federal end-run around Montana laws...
« Reply #56 on: March 17, 2011, 06:08:45 AM »
real money in pot

hope they paid taxes on it  seems they are gonna al capone em

http://helenair.com/news/article_7dcb9950-505e-11e0-ad51-001cc4c002e0.html

The civil seizure warrants authorized agents to take more than $4.2 million from bank accounts in Kalispell, Helena and Belgrade. In Belgrade, a warrant authorized seizure of nearly $1.7 million in a First Security Bank account in the name of the Montana Cannabis Ministry and $103,413 in another account belonging to MCM owners Randy and Stephanie Leibenguth.

In Helena, authorities were authorized to seize more than $1.3 million from Valley Bank accounts held by Montana Cannabis and the Montana Caregivers Association, plus a Mountain West Bank account with $463,749 in the name of Joshua Schultz of Natural Medicine.

In Kalispell, authorities were authorized to seize $653,550 in a Glacier Bank account belonging to Four Seasons Gardening.


no further reports of any patients being bothered yet  though they did go to the home of one of the principles
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Federal end-run around Montana laws...
« Reply #57 on: March 17, 2011, 06:15:47 AM »
interesting  it seems it wasn't a blanket type deal  some were not targeted  and i wnder what made this guy move away from the others.  seems like it was a smart move

http://billingsgazette.com/news/local/article_01f9d21f-b862-5ae5-bd48-7b17723d869d.html

The medical-marijuana community in Billings was still reeling from the raids on Tuesday. David Couch, owner of Yellowstone Patient Care, said his business had not been raided on Monday, despite widespread accounts that it had been. Couch has four locations, including one in Miles City and one on 24th Street West across from the Rimrock Mall. He said his business had been connected to Big Sky Patient Care in Bozeman but "divorced itself" in September because of concerns he had with the Bozeman outfit.

Couch said he received advanced notice that his business would not be raided, but he still closed his doors on Monday to avoid any problems. He said he had no idea how his business had been linked to the raids. Another Billings dispensary, A Kinder Caregiver, also said it hadn't been raided.

"We were informed that there were several dispensaries that were going to be raided across the state," Couch said. "We thought it in the best interests of our employees and patients to close the door for the day and let the chips fall."
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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AJ Dual

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Re: Federal end-run around Montana laws...
« Reply #58 on: March 17, 2011, 12:49:58 PM »
I don't necessarily agree with that.  Maybe it's just me; I don't see a lot of value in assaulting individual officers or slashing tires, really.  
If it becomes necessary to revolt, one might as well do it in the most revolting way possible.  As Machiavelli said; "never do an enemy a minor injury."
I just wonder how many potential "revolutionaries" think this way.
I fear there are too many couch potatos out here.... or there .....  :'( :mad:

I agree.

At least amongst the Libertarian/Right/gun-culture (I'll call it the LRGC) there's a "you first" dynamic that holds most people back. Not the moral compunction that .gov doing ABC, does not justify me doing XYZ in retaliation. I think a lot of us, .gov doing ABC does justify doing XYZ in retaliation, we just don't want to lose our house, wife, kids, job over it. So should things get "bad enough" the outbreak of active resistance/violence would be sudden, and unexpected from some points of view.

So unlike other countries, you probably won't see a "ramping up" that's a harbinger of things to come. For many of us, it's "in for a penny, in for a pound."

Also due to the highly individualistic nature of the LRGC, it takes a LOT to get us to agitate publicly. It wasn't until the 2008 elections, and an administration and Congress that hasn't been that leftist since at least Carte or FDR to get people out on the streets in some sort of organized protest activity. This dynamic makes me think that the LRGC does not have much of a throttle. Either we're working within the system and voting... or we're shooting.

Maybe this is all very Walter Mitty of me to think so... however doing some VERY conservative math you get some startling numbers.

- Assume 50 Million gun-owning households in the U.S. (low/conservative on purpose)

- Assume 1% of them poses both the ideology, and the guts, and as such would be willing to "do something" in the event of some sufficient level of provocation from a Leftist/Collectivist/Statist us.gov. Even if it's just logistical/financial/or moral support. That's 500,000 individuals. (very low/conservative on purpose)

- Now just throw out there a guess that 1% of that 1% is willing to "do something" actively. That's 5000 "shooters".

That may not seem like a lot, but consider that through most of "The Troubles" in Northern Ireland and the U.K. there were only perhaps a dozen or less "triggermen" and/or bombers at any given time who were active. The rest were logistical support. And keep in mind what a huge impact just one or two random shooters have had on an entire urban area here in the U.S. (i.e. the Beltway "Snipers") Now imagine that instead of random psychos, it's people who have the support of a large fraction of the populace, have detailed plans, and are only actively targeting what they see as the "powers that be" with whom they've got a bone to pick.

That's one helluva mess.

But nobody is going to do this en-masse, at least not over pot. Fair or not, the medical legalization angle just looks like a "camel's nose in the tent" front for the outright legalization crowd to the majority of the American populace.

It would take some very clear-cut provocations well above and beyond fringe issues like Medical MJ to get the ball rolling.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 12:53:11 PM by AJ Dual »
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Federal end-run around Montana laws...
« Reply #59 on: March 17, 2011, 01:28:48 PM »
using "the troubles" for an example you need remember that there were trigger men on at least 3 sides there and bombers as well and it got real messy.  and that the brits stayed for 400 years
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Re: Federal end-run around Montana laws...
« Reply #60 on: March 19, 2011, 02:16:42 PM »
wouldn't a more accurate thread title be drug syndicate attempts to use montana laws as a shield for trafficking and tax evasion?  wink wink nudge nudge 
feds catch on raids ensue i really am curious about that guy christ now.  hard for me to imagine all this going on and him being innocent.  i'd look to see if he was a snitch  if not even an agent provocateur of some type. if not initially then perhaps under pressure after he got heat. guy like that has way to many angles to have missed out on the biggest one of all.  all that loosely accounted for cash.  ironically the cash they were hiding is actually the best incentive they have for legalization. if it were truly a "movement" they would be using all that tax revenue as a selling point to the legislature and the public instead of stealing for their own selfish gain.  human nature is hard to fight

It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Levant

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Re: Federal end-run around Montana laws...
« Reply #61 on: March 19, 2011, 04:36:00 PM »
The warrants state that they are going to take "cash, checks, money orders, jewelry, computers, digital storage for same, electronics, files of any kind  (such as records, filing cabinets, etc.), vehicles suspected of being used at any point in time for transportation of marijuana, marijuana, prescription medication, firearms" and "any valuables that may have been attained through proceeds of marijuana sales or any other drug."

In the Soviet Union, the KGB would have loved to have this kind of power.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Federal end-run around Montana laws...
« Reply #62 on: March 19, 2011, 04:53:04 PM »
they didn't need warrants did they?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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MicroBalrog

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Re: Federal end-run around Montana laws...
« Reply #63 on: March 19, 2011, 11:44:15 PM »
they didn't need warrants did they?

Russian law enforcement had always needed warrants. KGB, that's a different matter, but if you were gong to be formally charged in Soviet Russia, there's be warrants.

My father was at several points the subject of Russian police investigations in the bad old days, so I know more about that subject than most people.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Federal end-run around Montana laws...
« Reply #64 on: March 21, 2011, 12:13:32 PM »
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/16/us-montana-marijuana-odds-idUSTRE72F68H20110316

(Reuters) - A medical marijuana law in the state of Montana is being used for large-scale drug trafficking, federal prosecutors said, days after the U.S. government raided facilities across the state.

The raids on Monday capped an 18-month investigation of marijuana trafficking statewide, the U.S. Attorney for Montana, Michael Cotter, said in a statement.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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TommyGunn

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Re: Federal end-run around Montana laws...
« Reply #65 on: March 21, 2011, 02:40:48 PM »
Quote from: PTK
The warrants state that they are going to take "cash, checks, money orders, jewelry, computers, digital storage for same, electronics, files of any kind  (such as records, filing cabinets, etc.), vehicles suspected of being used at any point in time for transportation of marijuana, marijuana, prescription medication, firearms" and "any valuables that may have been attained through proceeds of marijuana sales or any other drug."
In the Soviet Union, the KGB would have loved to have this kind of power.

You're kidding.  In the former USSR, the KGB had a great deal more power than this.

You do know what they did to people in the Lubyanka ..... right?  [popcorn]
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Federal end-run around Montana laws...
« Reply #66 on: March 21, 2011, 10:44:51 PM »
Russian police, though, had never had such powers, at least officially.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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kgbsquirrel

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Re: Federal end-run around Montana laws...
« Reply #68 on: March 22, 2011, 06:41:42 PM »
and the doj press release

http://www.findmypot.com/2011/03/15/montana-dea-raids-medical-marijuana/

So we're back to it was all about the evil drugs, with only a minor mention about currency reporting. Why again did the... FBI, DEA, ATF, DHS, CBP, EPA and freaking OSHA?? Seriously, they list the EPA and OSHA as participating agencies. Anyways, why again did they feel the need to disregard Montana's law to stop these evil licensed and medical prescription requiring drug traffickers while completely ignoring, say, California?

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Federal end-run around Montana laws...
« Reply #69 on: March 22, 2011, 07:28:34 PM »
you missed the links to the raids in california? and colorado?  or that these folks were apparently operating outside federal and state law.  thats why they only raided some of the folks.
 in one article one dispensary owner said he knew about the raids and closed his place just in case but he was not involved in any of the wink wink nudge nudge and was left alone
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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kgbsquirrel

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Re: Federal end-run around Montana laws...
« Reply #70 on: March 22, 2011, 07:33:03 PM »
you missed the links to the raids in california? and colorado?  or that these folks were apparently operating outside federal and state law.  thats why they only raided some of the folks.

Yeah, apparently I did. Now the kicker, has DOJ openly acknowledged they are leaving alone the legitimate growers who aren't supplying the fakers?

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Federal end-run around Montana laws...
« Reply #71 on: March 22, 2011, 07:44:00 PM »
you missed the doj press release as well?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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kgbsquirrel

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Re: Federal end-run around Montana laws...
« Reply #72 on: March 22, 2011, 07:45:07 PM »
The DOJ press release makes no mention of Medical Marijuana or the exclusion of certain growers, only that MJ as a whole is a schedule 1 drug and is prohibited every where by Federal decree.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Federal end-run around Montana laws...
« Reply #73 on: March 22, 2011, 07:48:07 PM »
the colorado and calif links are 2 posts above your first post today
http://www.kpax.com/news/medical-marijuana-raids-more-extensive-than-first-thought/


bolding is my addition

n a press release the U.S. Attorney's office explains the search warrants were carried out where there was probable cause that the marijuana shops were involved in illegal and large scale trafficking of marijuana. Authorities also used civil warrants for financial institutions in Kalispell, Bozeman, and Helena to seize up to $4 million.

U.S. Attorney for the District of Montana Michael Cotter says, "When criminal networks violate federal laws those involved will be prosecuted."

Specifically, it is alleged in the search warrants that the property identified were involved in some or all of the following violations of federal law:

    * manufacture of marijuana and possession with intent to distribute marijuana
    * conspiracy to commit the offenses of manufacture of marijuana, possession with intent to distribute marijuana
    * structuring or assisting in structuring any transaction to evade currency reporting requirements or causing or attempting to cause a domestic financial institution to fail to file Currency Transaction Reports.

The U.S. Attorney says medical marijuana customers using the drug to cope with illnesses who in "clear compliance with state law' aren't the focus of this investigation.

No federal criminal charges have been filed to date against any of the named individuals identified in the search warrants, civil seizure warrants and related documents.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Federal end-run around Montana laws...
« Reply #74 on: March 22, 2011, 10:19:17 PM »
Russian law enforcement had always needed warrants. KGB, that's a different matter, but if you were gong to be formally charged in Soviet Russia, there's be warrants.

My father was at several points the subject of Russian police investigations in the bad old days, so I know more about that subject than most people.
Yeah, but did the warrants mean anything?

Are these warrants in any real sense, or are these like the "free Presidential elections" held in places like Cuba?