Author Topic: Outstanding rant about the state of America  (Read 19094 times)

Balog

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Re: Outstanding rant about the state of America
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2014, 07:51:37 PM »
These kinds of discussion are always interesting to me

Let's say such a plan Could work, without creating an instant backlash. "The List" of people that need to die gets "taken care of", and those people are now gone, without a heavy-handed government retaliation. Great.

Now... who fills those suddenly open positions? And what kind of policies are THEY gonna pursue?

I think it was in Stranger in a Strange Land where Heinlein pointed out that throwing the bums out is great in theory, but what bums are gonna replace them?

And oddly enough, I have yet to have gotten an answer from a would-be revolutionary when I pose that question

I don't know anyone who's been through an actual civil war in their country that's either eager to start the killing or blithely optimistic about the results. Bottom line is you start killing folks, they'll start killing back and then America will bleed and suffer as it (and the folks championing it) never have. And the end result would most likely be worse than what started the fighting.
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TommyGunn

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Re: Outstanding rant about the state of America
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2014, 07:58:07 PM »
I don't know anyone who's been through an actual civil war in their country that's either eager to start the killing or blithely optimistic about the results. Bottom line is you start killing folks, they'll start killing back and then America will bleed and suffer as it (and the folks championing it) never have. And the end result would most likely be worse than what started the fighting.

Well, that is why such things should be reserved for when everything else has failed.
The colonists just didn't grab guns and start shooting the Redcoats the first time King George slapped some 2% tax on shoestrings without allowing the colonists' representation.
They tried commitees of correspondence, even the infamous Tea Party.  They did a lot of less than "KILL THE BASTIGES" type stuff. 
It was when the British tried to sieze guns that triggered the fight, since it was realized the opportunity to fight would be lost afterwards.
Likewise, today, we fight at the ballot box, the jury box, and in every other peaceful way we can. 
Maybe if/when we do have to fight, it will be hopeless.
But maybe it's better to go down fighting.
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Balog

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Re: Outstanding rant about the state of America
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2014, 08:09:52 PM »
I'm not saying there is never a time to fight. I'm sure a lot of German Jews really wished they'd had guns and resisted getting sent off to the cattle cars.

But we aren't there yet.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Tallpine

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Re: Outstanding rant about the state of America
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2014, 08:39:47 PM »
I'm not saying there is never a time to fight. I'm sure a lot of German Jews really wished they'd had guns and resisted getting sent off to the cattle cars.

But we aren't there yet.

More like long past the point of useful resistance  =(
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Fly320s

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Re: Outstanding rant about the state of America
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2014, 08:40:54 PM »
I'm not saying there is never a time to fight. I'm sure a lot of German Jews really wished they'd had guns and resisted getting sent off to the cattle cars.

But we aren't there yet.

So there may come a time to fight.  If/when we get there, will killing the "key 100" be effective?
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AJ Dual

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Re: Outstanding rant about the state of America
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2014, 09:26:15 PM »

Three: It's also *expletive deleted* evil. You don't get to just decide to kill folks who's politics you don't like for convenience. That's what Stalin, Mao, and Che did. It's wrong. 

If you read that and thought even for a second that it was OK, take a step back from the keyboard and take a real long look at your moral compass.

Yeah... because what they are doing to America isn't evil. It's just politics. A difference of opinion.  ;/

It was a little more complicated than that, but yes, we did kill our brethren and fellow countrymen and betray our king over a $.03 tax on tea.

We developed nuclear weapons because we shared the world with people like the ones who are now at least partly in charge of our country. 

A couple bullets in a couple of heads is a rather "light touch" by comparison.

If the people doing it were doing it out of an Oath to the Constitution, I'd be just fine with it, and sleep well. Sorry.
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Bigjake

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Re: Outstanding rant about the state of America
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2014, 10:12:28 PM »
Yeah... because what they are doing to America isn't evil. It's just politics. A difference of opinion.  ;/


If the people doing it were doing it out of an Oath to the Constitution, I'd be just fine with it, and sleep well. Sorry.

What he said. 


MicroBalrog

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Re: Outstanding rant about the state of America
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2014, 10:29:21 PM »
So, those 100 people.

Let's imagine they're totally unguarded, unprotected, etc.

To swiftly kill them off, you'd need to have at least a hundred other people in on it (and probably far more).

It is not possible to keep - in the presence of modern law enforcement, the NSA, and so forth - such a plan a secret.

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Tallpine

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Re: Outstanding rant about the state of America
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2014, 10:30:46 PM »
Well, not now - anyway  :lol:
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Perd Hapley

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Re: Outstanding rant about the state of America
« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2014, 11:02:09 PM »
We don't have a government problem. We have a cultural problem, and fed.gov is downstream of that.

This very much.


It was a little more complicated than that, but yes, we did kill our brethren and fellow countrymen and betray our king over a $.03 tax on tea.


So long as we understand that was only one aspect of one of the laws and political structures over which the fight was waged.



These kinds of discussion are always interesting to me

Let's say such a plan Could work, without creating an instant backlash. "The List" of people that need to die gets "taken care of", and those people are now gone, without a heavy-handed government retaliation. Great.

Now... who fills those suddenly open positions? And what kind of policies are THEY gonna pursue?

I think the general idea is that the new bums will take a look at what policies got the other ones killed, and then try to be more nicer to all those trigger-happy constituents.

Now, they may think it's the 2nd and 4th amendments that got those people killed, and reverse those policies for the worse...
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Bigjake

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Re: Outstanding rant about the state of America
« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2014, 11:10:18 PM »
I think the phrase you're looking for at that point, is "rinse and repeat as necessary". 

In for a penny...

Perd Hapley

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Re: Outstanding rant about the state of America
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2014, 11:15:36 PM »
I think the phrase you're looking for at that point, is "rinse and repeat as necessary". 

In for a penny...


Which means the Kill a Hundred of the Worst Ones theory is out.
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Bigjake

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Re: Outstanding rant about the state of America
« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2014, 11:20:01 PM »

Which means the Kill a Hundred of the Worst Ones theory is out.

If we're going down that particular rabbit hole,  yes.

Personally,  I think we're way past the point where offing the worst of the oath breakers would matter.  There would just be a whole bunch of new .gov holidays and memorials.  Look at Giffords.  The only thing she ever managed was to be in the wrong place at the wrong time,  and surviving that makes her a hero and expert! 

Perd Hapley

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Re: Outstanding rant about the state of America
« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2014, 11:40:03 PM »
Actually, she's a hero because of her bravery in the face of all the gun-owners constantly trying to kill her, as we have killed so many gun control advocates in the past.

Oh, wait. No, something's wrong there.
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TommyGunn

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Re: Outstanding rant about the state of America
« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2014, 11:54:39 PM »
I'm not saying there is never a time to fight. I'm sure a lot of German Jews really wished they'd had guns and resisted getting sent off to the cattle cars.
I never assumed you were saying there was never a time to fight.

But we aren't there yet.
I completly agree.
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Balog

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Re: Outstanding rant about the state of America
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2014, 05:07:09 AM »
In politics as in personal life, the time to fight no matter what is when you are about to lose the ability to fight.

The mugger wants me to turn my back to him and get on my knees? Nope, fighting.

The fed.gov wants to confiscate my guns? Nope, fighting.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

birdman

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Re: Outstanding rant about the state of America
« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2014, 06:23:08 AM »
In politics as in personal life, the time to fight no matter what is when you are about to lose the ability to fight.

The mugger wants me to turn my back to him and get on my knees? Nope, fighting.

The fed.gov wants to confiscate my guns? Nope, fighting.

One of the most important take-aways I got from unintended consequences.  I had never really thought about when the "fight no matter what" point was.

KD5NRH

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Re: Outstanding rant about the state of America
« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2014, 10:10:22 AM »
So there may come a time to fight.  If/when we get there, will killing the "key 100" be effective?

Depends on the attitudes of the rest of the problems at the time; it could be Pearl Harbor, or it could be what the Japanese intended Pearl Harbor to be.  I'd expect somewhere in the middle.

It is not possible to keep - in the presence of modern law enforcement, the NSA, and so forth - such a plan a secret.

Difficult, yes.  Impossible?  Not at all.  You'd need a very trustworthy group and some old fashioned methods, (a properly made and used one-time pad is still effectively unbreakable, and nobody's got the resources to listen in on every quiet conversation at every cafe table or poker game) but it could happen.

Pb

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Re: Outstanding rant about the state of America
« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2014, 10:20:45 AM »
If the American people wanted a responsible government that respected our rights they could actually vote it in!

The majority of the American people don't care about it though!

How could anyone think assasinating 100-150 people would do ANYTHING in a country that continues to actually vote for such loathsome people?

We still hold elections in this country.  Why don't small gov and pro civil liberties people run the country?  Because they are not popular!

Fitz

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Re: Re: Outstanding rant about the state of America
« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2014, 10:46:17 AM »
If the American people wanted a responsible government that respected our rights they could actually vote it in!

The majority of the American people don't care about it though!

How could anyone think assasinating 100-150 people would do ANYTHING in a country that continues to actually vote for such loathsome people?

We still hold elections in this country.  Why don't small gov and pro civil liberties people run the country?  Because they are not popular!




No, no, no

You have it all wrong.

You have to vote for the establishment candidates.

Then cry about it later and talk revolution
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Ron

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Re: Outstanding rant about the state of America
« Reply #45 on: May 15, 2014, 11:05:44 AM »
If there is a revolution then I'm sitting it out.

The overwhelming majority of the public is OK with the status quo as long as "their" guys/gals are in charge. Under representatives elected by our peers I just can't see what type of movement could possibly spring up where murder is morally defensible. What I sense is a lot of frustration that leads to fantasies of lashing out. Probably not the best survival plan.

Free state type projects, going Galt, refusing to participate in the madness are the best options for those who love liberty IMHO.  

Of course I'm already living behind enemy lines (Illinois) so my lack of confidence in my fellow Americans is due to being pretty jaded.


« Last Edit: May 15, 2014, 12:14:30 PM by Ron »
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AJ Dual

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Re: Outstanding rant about the state of America
« Reply #46 on: May 15, 2014, 11:54:00 AM »
If the American people wanted a responsible government that respected our rights they could actually vote it in!

The majority of the American people don't care about it though!

How could anyone think assasinating 100-150 people would do ANYTHING in a country that continues to actually vote for such loathsome people?

We still hold elections in this country.  Why don't small gov and pro civil liberties people run the country?  Because they are not popular!

As a Republic, we're supposed to be insulated from the vagaries and flaws in democracy.

The two biggest problems/failures as I see it are:

1. The 17th Amendment, removing the Senate from election by state legislatures.

2. The inability or lack of any "teeth" of the branches to actually enforce their constitutional powers over each other. Dates back to Jackson at least and "Worcester v. Georgia" and the famous quote: "John Marshall has made his decision; now let him enforce it!"

Without power to actually enforce their decisions, or more appropriately, only the Executive branch having such powers, the Constitution has from day one had an expiration date in it, as it slowly becomes a paper tiger every time the people with the guns decide to be ballsy and not listen.

i.e.  Here and now, Congress held Holder in Contempt, but unless Congress had some sort of actual troops or police in a chain of command that starts with the Speaker, through the Sargent at Arms and not POTUS, and they went and got Holder, it's an empty gesture. Same for Lois Lerner.  =(

Congress can retaliate through the budget process in theory, but what REALLY would happen if the POTUS or the Exec Branch at large ignored it and just spent whatever he wanted, wrote checks etc.?

Same for SCOTUS. If the Exec branch had people arrested, detained indefinitely without Habeas Corpus, and just ignored court rulings  to free or give people trial, what's next? What does the court actually do about it?

Rule again?

Granted Habeas Corpus already has the exceptions for rebellion and war, so it's easier to manipulate, as it was in the Civil War and today in the much more nebulous AWOT, but I think you get the idea.

If the Founders had some additional prescience, they might have structured each branch with some troops, a militia, or some sort of service that was loyal to them and outside the chain-of-command of the CnC/POTUS. Might have been one hell of a mess, especially during the Civil War, or perhaps the Congress and SCOTUS might have let their forces whither to ceremonial roles anyway.

But it would have been a start.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2014, 11:57:11 AM by AJ Dual »
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brimic

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Re: Outstanding rant about the state of America
« Reply #47 on: May 15, 2014, 12:13:21 PM »
Quote
Without power to actually enforce their decisions, or more appropriately, only the Executive branch having such powers, the Constitution has from day one had an expiration date in it, as it slowly becomes a paper tiger every time the people with the guns decide to be ballsy and not listen.

i.e.  Here and now, Congress held Holder in Contempt, but unless Congress had some sort of actual troops or police in a chain of command that starts with the Speaker, through the Sargent at Arms and not POTUS, and they went and got Holder, it's an empty gesture. Same for Lois Lerner.

Yes.
The executive branch and its selective enforcement of the law has greatly diminished the legitimacy of the federal government.
If laws aren't enforced from the top down, why pay any attention to the top at all- other than they will use whatever force is necessary to extract their whims from the people.
What do we have when our leaders are lawless criminals who use thugs to enforce their will?
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Ron

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Re: Outstanding rant about the state of America
« Reply #48 on: May 15, 2014, 12:19:42 PM »
The militia theoretically should be the enforcement arm or counterbalance of power for the legislative branch.

As elected representatives they were supposed to be on the side of free citizens jealous of their liberty.

Free citizens jealous of their liberty were those who the militia were to be comprised of and yet here we are with an out of control Fed.gov.
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Tallpine

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Re: Outstanding rant about the state of America
« Reply #49 on: May 15, 2014, 12:20:13 PM »
Quote
If the Exec branch had people arrested, detained indefinitely without Habeas Corpus, and just ignored court rulings  to free or give people trial, what's next?

You mean like Lincoln did ?   =(
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin