Author Topic: M2 Machine Gun Problems at Pearl Harbor  (Read 1968 times)

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,648
M2 Machine Gun Problems at Pearl Harbor
« on: December 07, 2011, 02:52:17 PM »
According to an article in today's Austin American-Stateman, the .50 caliber Browning M2 machine guns used against the Japs at Pearl Harbor had some problems . . . and the military shanghaied Colt's engineer vice president for military production to Hawaii to solve them.

Here's a link to the story:

http://www.statesman.com/opinion/unsung-war-hero-kapland-helped-create-key-world-2016824.html
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

JonnyB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 762
Re: M2 Machine Gun Problems at Pearl Harbor
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2011, 04:22:22 PM »
Blasphemer! Stone him!! He speaks evil against the prophet JMB; he must die!

How'd I do? :-)

jb
Jon has a long mustache. No, really; he does. Look at that thing!

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,782
Re: M2 Machine Gun Problems at Pearl Harbor
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2011, 06:23:49 PM »
Quote
The need for all arms, machine guns included, was urgent, and the government gave production contracts to Colt's competitor, Springfield Armory, and to such nontraditional manufacturers as Fridigaire and General Motors. Almost 2 million of the machine guns were produced before the end of the war.
Was Springfield Armory considered a competitor of Colt? 

It sounds like a symptom of a larger problem with our Pre-WWII military.  Lack of funding meant we didn't test a lot of weapons very well or use them enough in training.  Otherwise, they might have noticed this much sooner.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

vaskidmark

  • National Anthem Snob
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,799
  • WTF?
Re: M2 Machine Gun Problems at Pearl Harbor
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2011, 07:13:49 AM »
Was Springfield Armory considered a competitor of Colt? 

It sounds like a symptom of a larger problem with our Pre-WWII military.  Lack of funding meant we didn't test a lot of weapons very well or use them enough in training.  Otherwise, they might have noticed this much sooner.

But remember: "Firing only 700 rounds per minute, many of them nevertheless overheated, disabling the gun."

It's firing 700 rounds per minute for a full minute that did in the barrels.  Although the manual and your instructor say to fire bursts of 3 to 5 rounds, it is so much more tempting, in the heat of combat and awash with adrenaline, to hold the trigger down until "bang" becomes "click".

Improving the metalurgy is still a good thing, but putting all the blame on the manufacturer when dealing with operator error is just wrong.  It might be forgiven in the hysteria of coming to terms with being at war but to be supported unequivically now is deserving of a  :facepalm:.

stay safe.

If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,648
Re: M2 Machine Gun Problems at Pearl Harbor
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2011, 08:38:53 AM »
Was Springfield Armory considered a competitor of Colt? 

It sounds like a symptom of a larger problem with our Pre-WWII military.  Lack of funding meant we didn't test a lot of weapons very well or use them enough in training.  Otherwise, they might have noticed this much sooner.
Much of our military - the army, at least - was being run by old cavalry officers. Some of whom, quite frankly, were idiots. As an example, when the Nazis invaded Poland, their early Panzers went through the Polish cavalry - some of the finest in the world - like a buzzsaw. Our generals saw this and were appalled. But did they say "We need tanks of our own!" ? Nope, not at first. The "lesson" they took from the demise of the Polish cavalry was that we needed armored horse wagons that would protect our cavalry until it got into the enemy's rear, at which point the cavalry would be turned loose.

. . . It's firing 700 rounds per minute for a full minute that did in the barrels.  Although the manual and your instructor say to fire bursts of 3 to 5 rounds, it is so much more tempting, in the heat of combat and awash with adrenaline, to hold the trigger down until "bang" becomes "click".

Improving the metalurgy is still a good thing, but putting all the blame on the manufacturer when dealing with operator error is just wrong.   . . .
At the time, we still had a senior officer corps trained by Civil War veterans, and they were still more concerned with costs than combat effectiveness - their predecessors of a generation or two earlier actually fought against repeating rifles because ". . . the soldiers would shoot up all their ammo . . . " and the same mindset still prevailed. Short bursts saved ammo, but when Jap after Jap is roaring in, long bursts made sense - you needed to put lead on the bad guys, and ammo conservation wasn't even on the radar as a concern. After the Great War and the use of machine guns then, they SHOULD have known that fire discipline would evaporate in a hectic, target-rich environment, and planned for it. But upgrading the weapons would have taken innovative thinking and more money, so it didn't happen, even after they upgraded the ammo to a hotter load. It was much easier to say "Don't shoot too much too fast."
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

makattak

  • Dark Lord of the Cis
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,022
Re: M2 Machine Gun Problems at Pearl Harbor
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2011, 09:49:18 AM »
Wait, wait, wait. You're telling me that throughout our history we've been trying to figure out how prepare better for the last war rather than the next war???

I'm shocked. I'm so glad we don't do that now.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,648
Re: M2 Machine Gun Problems at Pearl Harbor
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2011, 10:05:09 AM »
Wait, wait, wait. You're telling me that throughout our history we've been trying to figure out how prepare better for the last war rather than the next war???

I'm shocked. I'm so glad we don't do that now.
Well, we learned on 9/11 that the enemy is still using kamikazes, although they're a little bigger today than they were in WWII . . .  =(
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,782
Re: M2 Machine Gun Problems at Pearl Harbor
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2011, 10:49:38 AM »
Regarding the Japanese and longer bursts, I thought they still teach short bursts because they normally don't charge in tight packed groups.  they were spread out and any single burst won't be aimed at more than a couple guys. 

What I was referring to is lack of training on the part of the gunners.  They likely hadn't fired the guns enough to do it properly under stress anyway.  Of course, that ignores the idea that most of them probably had little experience or training at shooting at aircraft anyway. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

vaskidmark

  • National Anthem Snob
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,799
  • WTF?
Re: M2 Machine Gun Problems at Pearl Harbor
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2011, 04:23:51 PM »
Regarding the Japanese and longer bursts, I thought they still teach short bursts because they normally don't charge in tight packed groups.  they were spread out and any single burst won't be aimed at more than a couple guys. 

What I was referring to is lack of training on the part of the gunners.  They likely hadn't fired the guns enough to do it properly under stress anyway. HOw dare you!  Our machine gunners had scads of practice - it just consisted of using wodden mock-ups and yelling rat-a-tat-tat instead of using actual ammo that would cost money to replace.

 Of course, that ignores the idea that most of them probably had little experience or training at shooting at aircraft anyway.  And why would they be firing at airplanes when the generals knew, in spite of what those damn-fool air corps flyboys did, that the airplane was only good for scouting and carrying messages that could be dropped to our front-line leaders.

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.